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This comment was deleted on Sep 10, 2020, 09:45.

Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 08:18:

Quinn wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 02:24:
[
No, SMA, your brain is unable to fathom that if someone gives critique or even dumb ad-homs toward a person who isn't white, doesn't automatically mean said someone is racist. I also noticed the bolded part. That "mentally inept" lives as a stereotype for a certain race in your brain, is your problem. Nobody is a mind-reader. Next time I'll give critique or uncharmingly insult a non-white person, shall I check with you first what stereotypes live in your head?

If you are familiar with the history of American slavery and segregation, then you know that American culture built up a series of stereotypes around the "Negro" to justify their brutal subjugation. Specifically, that they are less sensitive to pain; that they are less intelligent; that they are more likely to engage in criminality unless kept under strict control; that they are sexually profligate and that the men will rape white women unless, again, kept under strict control; that they are, at their core, beasts of burden and not rational, moral actors. These are the attitudes which justified slavery, which justified Jim Crow and segregation, and which justifies continuing racial inequities particularly as regards the criminal justice system. You do not have to actively consider yourself a white supremacist to have absorbed these attitudes and anyone who is being honest with themselves will find themselves thinking or feeling them from time to time, much like any American will also think "freedom is good" from time to time -- it's just part of our culture.

If someone starts expressing racially conservative views, i.e. that it is inherently illegitimate for a black athlete to engage in protest on American race relations, they themselves may not view themselves as racists, but having absorbed American cultural attitudes towards blacks, it is entirely likely that they will express their racially conservative views in terms of the aforementioned longstanding racial stereotypes. Using the term "mentally inept" -- when arguing that nothing untoward happened because Kaepernick's career was already in steep decline -- is tipping your hand. If his career is in steep decline, then you can provide the statistical evidence to show it, and you have proved your premise in your larger argument. Falling back on "mentally inept" suggests that this is not an evidence based argument. Instead, the argument is rooted in unconscious cultural attitudes which then engender resentment in the racially conservative person when he is forced to confront racial inequity, such as when a protest regularly occurs as part of his favorite sport.

OK, so let me check if I got this right: because we have a racist history toward blacks, although it's the past, we still hold these believes intrinsically and any criticism or dumb insult toward a POC is -- by default -- racist?

Do you think it's possible RogueSix just thinks Kaepernick is an unlikeable piece of shit and that it has nothing to do with his race? If yes, then why assume the worst and call him racist? If no, then we have a long way to go if we're ever going to see eye to eye, if ever.

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This comment was deleted on Sep 10, 2020, 09:41.

SMA, just block him. We've all been down this road. He says something racist, flips out when it's called racist, then comes back and says something even more racist. He isn't from the US, yet feels he's the authority on what life is like for African Americans.

He's ignorant about his favorite topics, and just doubles down and gets more outraged.

Life is better when you cut those with no awareness of the limitations of their knowledge out of it. He won't learn, because he's convinced the world works for everyone as it does for him.

Quinn wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 02:24:
[
No, SMA, your brain is unable to fathom that if someone gives critique or even dumb ad-homs toward a person who isn't white, doesn't automatically mean said someone is racist. I also noticed the bolded part. That "mentally inept" lives as a stereotype for a certain race in your brain, is your problem. Nobody is a mind-reader. Next time I'll give critique or uncharmingly insult a non-white person, shall I check with you first what stereotypes live in your head?

If you are familiar with the history of American slavery and segregation, then you know that American culture built up a series of stereotypes around the "Negro" to justify their brutal subjugation. Specifically, that they are less sensitive to pain; that they are less intelligent; that they are more likely to engage in criminality unless kept under strict control; that they are sexually profligate and that the men will rape white women unless, again, kept under strict control; that they are, at their core, beasts of burden and not rational, moral actors. These are the attitudes which justified slavery, which justified Jim Crow and segregation, and which justifies continuing racial inequities particularly as regards the criminal justice system. You do not have to actively consider yourself a white supremacist to have absorbed these attitudes and anyone who is being honest with themselves will find themselves thinking or feeling them from time to time, much like any American will also think "freedom is good" from time to time -- it's just part of our culture.

If someone starts expressing racially conservative views, i.e. that it is inherently illegitimate for a black athlete to engage in protest on American race relations, they themselves may not view themselves as racists, but having absorbed American cultural attitudes towards blacks, it is entirely likely that they will express their racially conservative views in terms of the aforementioned longstanding racial stereotypes. Using the term "mentally inept" -- when arguing that nothing untoward happened because Kaepernick's career was already in steep decline -- is tipping your hand. If his career is in steep decline, then you can provide the statistical evidence to show it, and you have proved your premise in your larger argument. Falling back on "mentally inept" suggests that this is not an evidence based argument. Instead, the argument is rooted in unconscious cultural attitudes which then engender resentment in the racially conservative person when he is forced to confront racial inequity, such as when a protest regularly occurs as part of his favorite sport.

jdreyer wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 00:01:

Eirikrautha wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 19:16:
The NFL will look past rapes, murders, theft, and 16 baby-mamas... but they're going to banish a productive QB because he's "outspoken"? Not a chance. Kapernick outlived his usefulness on the field, and tried to "activist" his way into keeping his job. Nothing noble about him...

You know who else will look past rapes and murders? Fans. However, they won't look past protests. I remember on this very board a few years ago how person after person said they were "done" with the NFL b/c the players "brought politics onto the field." Brutal crime = no problem. Constitutionally guaranteed protest = not going to watch football anymore.

They were raping and murdering on the field? Damn, American football got extreme...

Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 20:11:

Quinn wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 19:06:
So everyone who doesn't agree with you guys are simply racist now? So pathetic.

No, Quinn, your brain is unable to follow an argument or infer anything that isn't explicitly spelled out for you. Hell, you're too dense to notice a bolded part of a block quote, let alone connect it to longstanding racial stereotypes. If you'd like to see what rebutting a rhetorical antagonist looks like, please examine Eirikrautha's post: he did a bang up job.

Speaking of which, you make a good rebuttal, Eirikrautha. I don't follow football so I can't produce a counter argument other than to say that the impression I got living in the Bay Area in 2012-14 was that Kaepernick was a star quarterback. Seeing the *ahem* racially conservative members of this board proclaim him a terrible player raised a red flag, so I googled "quarterback ranking" to see if he was really that fucking terrible. Turns out that statistics say he wasn't terrible, and ranks along names that non-Football fans still know. But you've pointed out the limitations of those statistics and the downward trend of his career, so I'll concede to someone who knows better than I do.

No, SMA, your brain is unable to fathom that if someone gives critique or even dumb ad-homs toward a person who isn't white, doesn't automatically mean said someone is racist. I also noticed the bolded part. That "mentally inept" lives as a stereotype for a certain race in your brain, is your problem. Nobody is a mind-reader. Next time I'll give critique or uncharmingly insult a non-white person, shall I check with you first what stereotypes live in your head?

It's also funny that in one quote you call someone a racist for insulting Kaepernick on his performance, all the while being smug about how you know better, while a few posts later you concede that Kaepernick actually was. So the racist guy was kind of right. Ouch. Maybe you would've seen reason if he wasn't talking about a non-white, huh?

Eirikrautha wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 19:16:
The NFL will look past rapes, murders, theft, and 16 baby-mamas... but they're going to banish a productive QB because he's "outspoken"? Not a chance. Kapernick outlived his usefulness on the field, and tried to "activist" his way into keeping his job. Nothing noble about him...

You know who else will look past rapes and murders? Fans. However, they won't look past protests. I remember on this very board a few years ago how person after person said they were "done" with the NFL b/c the players "brought politics onto the field." Brutal crime = no problem. Constitutionally guaranteed protest = not going to watch football anymore.

Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 15:57:

RogueSix wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 15:28:

Prez wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 06:12:
Football is still about athletes with amazing skill right? I don't mind if he kneels, sits, stands on his head, whatever during the National Anthem. He really just isn't that good at Football.

Yeah. His Superbowl performance was abysmally bad. He was a nervous wreck who made mistake after mistake and poor judgment after poor judgment due to being scared shitless. He is obviously mentally inept to perform at the elite competitive level inherent to the NFL playoffs and especially the Super Bowl. He may be OK in regular league games so he should probably sign with a tail end club that does not run the risk of ever getting very far in the playoffs.

It's too bad we don't have something like sports statistics to objectively measure athlete performance and instead have to just rely on Internet racists to make subjective assessments for us.

Okay, that was... devastating.

Eirikrautha wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 20:30:

Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 20:11:

Quinn wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 19:06:
So everyone who doesn't agree with you guys are simply racist now? So pathetic.

No, Quinn, your brain is unable to follow an argument or infer anything that isn't explicitly spelled out for you. Hell, you're too dense to notice a bolded part of a block quote, let alone connect it to longstanding racial stereotypes. If you'd like to see what rebutting a rhetorical antagonist looks like, please examine Eirikrautha's post: he did a bang up job.

Speaking of which, you make a good rebuttal, Eirikrautha. I don't follow football so I can't produce a counter argument other than to say that the impression I got living in the Bay Area in 2012-14 was that Kaepernick was a star quarterback. Seeing the *ahem* racially conservative members of this board proclaim him a terrible player raised a red flag, so I googled "quarterback ranking" to see if he was really that fucking terrible. Turns out that statistics say he wasn't terrible, and ranks along names that non-Football fans still know. But you've pointed out the limitations of those statistics and the downward trend of his career, so I'll concede to someone who knows better than I do.

Thank you. He wasn't terrible, especially his first season, but he became pretty bad. He has 12,000 career yards and 72 touchdowns (which ranks him 167th and 174th all time in the NFL), so he was a middle to lower tier QB, but he was 28-30 W/L as a starter, which is pretty bad, with a lot of those losses in his later seasons. If not for his protests, he wouldn't even be mentioned in football today... which is kind of the point, one suspects...

His last two seasons were bad. He had no one to throw to, but definitely bad regardless.
He still could have had a backup job. There was no interest. He'd have been better than Bortles, and several others. Whether that's due to his asking price is something we'll really only ever know rumors about.

Almost certainly, a mix of declining skill, too high an asking price, and the headaches he brought at the time (which are quaint in retrospect.)

Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 20:11:

Quinn wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 19:06:
So everyone who doesn't agree with you guys are simply racist now? So pathetic.

No, Quinn, your brain is unable to follow an argument or infer anything that isn't explicitly spelled out for you. Hell, you're too dense to notice a bolded part of a block quote, let alone connect it to longstanding racial stereotypes. If you'd like to see what rebutting a rhetorical antagonist looks like, please examine Eirikrautha's post: he did a bang up job.

Speaking of which, you make a good rebuttal, Eirikrautha. I don't follow football so I can't produce a counter argument other than to say that the impression I got living in the Bay Area in 2012-14 was that Kaepernick was a star quarterback. Seeing the *ahem* racially conservative members of this board proclaim him a terrible player raised a red flag, so I googled "quarterback ranking" to see if he was really that fucking terrible. Turns out that statistics say he wasn't terrible, and ranks along names that non-Football fans still know. But you've pointed out the limitations of those statistics and the downward trend of his career, so I'll concede to someone who knows better than I do.

Thank you. He wasn't terrible, especially his first season, but he became pretty bad. He has 12,000 career yards and 72 touchdowns (which ranks him 167th and 174th all time in the NFL), so he was a middle to lower tier QB, but he was 28-30 W/L as a starter, which is pretty bad, with a lot of those losses in his later seasons. If not for his protests, he wouldn't even be mentioned in football today... which is kind of the point, one suspects...

Quinn wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 19:06:
So everyone who doesn't agree with you guys are simply racist now? So pathetic.

No, Quinn, your brain is unable to follow an argument or infer anything that isn't explicitly spelled out for you. Hell, you're too dense to notice a bolded part of a block quote, let alone connect it to longstanding racial stereotypes. If you'd like to see what rebutting a rhetorical antagonist looks like, please examine Eirikrautha's post: he did a bang up job.

Speaking of which, you make a good rebuttal, Eirikrautha. I don't follow football so I can't produce a counter argument other than to say that the impression I got living in the Bay Area in 2012-14 was that Kaepernick was a star quarterback. Seeing the *ahem* racially conservative members of this board proclaim him a terrible player raised a red flag, so I googled "quarterback ranking" to see if he was really that fucking terrible. Turns out that statistics say he wasn't terrible, and ranks along names that non-Football fans still know. But you've pointed out the limitations of those statistics and the downward trend of his career, so I'll concede to someone who knows better than I do.

It’s never too late for the revisionist history club.

NFL exec admits owners blackballed Kaepernick, the Super Bowl-caliber quarterback, for kneeling.

tmyk

Mr. Tact wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 19:18:

Quinn wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 19:06:
So everyone who doesn't agree with you guys are simply racist now? So pathetic. Nothing in what these guys (Prez included) said was racist, but because they were critical about a non-white, it's racist in your eyes. Maybe stop seeing skin color? Maybe start applying the same standard to every human being? Maybe stop being hypocritical racists yourselves?

The only shield against violence is conversation. Shutting dialogue off with everyone you disagree with by calling them racists right from the start, will only put more violence and malice into this world. Start looking in the mirror. I've been the victim of your close-minded vitriol since forever now, but I'm genuinely surprised that you usual suspects are so arrogant and offensive to so many others here.

Not sure who your comment is directed at, but I didn't come close to calling anyone a racist. Didn't seem like anyone in power in the NFL was interested in talking to Colin...

Scottish Martial Arts, Redeye, this time. I wasn't talking about you.

As for Kaepernick? This video covers it good enough. Not a racist.

Quinn wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 19:06:
So everyone who doesn't agree with you guys are simply racist now? So pathetic. Nothing in what these guys (Prez included) said was racist, but because they were critical about a non-white, it's racist in your eyes. Maybe stop seeing skin color? Maybe start applying the same standard to every human being? Maybe stop being hypocritical racists yourselves?

The only shield against violence is conversation. Shutting dialogue off with everyone you disagree with by calling them racists right from the start, will only put more violence and malice into this world. Start looking in the mirror. I've been the victim of your close-minded vitriol since forever now, but I'm genuinely surprised that you usual suspects are so arrogant and offensive to so many others here.

Not sure who your comment is directed at, but I didn't come close to calling anyone a racist. Didn't seem like anyone in power in the NFL was interested in talking to Colin...

Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 07:32:

Prez wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 06:12:
Football is still about athletes with amazing skill right? I don't mind if he kneels, sits, stands on his head, whatever during the National Anthem. He really just isn't that good at Football.

That is objectively not true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Football_League_career_passer_rating_leaders

Maybe you're just not very good at tolerating Blacks speaking their mind?

No, you're just not good at math. Kap has 1600 attempts, way less than the number most of the other passers on that list have and barely past the cut-off. And, as a statistic, passer rating tells you next to nothing. You can get a perfect rating making 5-yard check-downs that amount to nothing, but get hammered by throwing five 60-yard touchdowns and one interception. Kap was benched his final year in the league because he didn't produce, not because he was outspoken. The NFL will look past rapes, murders, theft, and 16 baby-mamas... but they're going to banish a productive QB because he's "outspoken"? Not a chance. Kapernick outlived his usefulness on the field, and tried to "activist" his way into keeping his job. Nothing noble about him...

RedEye9 wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 16:28:

Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 15:57:

RogueSix wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 15:28:

Prez wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 06:12:
Football is still about athletes with amazing skill right? I don't mind if he kneels, sits, stands on his head, whatever during the National Anthem. He really just isn't that good at Football.

Yeah. His Superbowl performance was abysmally bad. He was a nervous wreck who made mistake after mistake and poor judgment after poor judgment due to being scared shitless. He is obviously mentally inept to perform at the elite competitive level inherent to the NFL playoffs and especially the Super Bowl. He may be OK in regular league games so he should probably sign with a tail end club that does not run the risk of ever getting very far in the playoffs.

It's too bad we don't have something like sports statistics to objectively measure athlete performance and instead have to just rely on Internet racists to make subjective assessments for us.

QFT

So everyone who doesn't agree with you guys are simply racist now? So pathetic. Nothing in what these guys (Prez included) said was racist, but because they were critical about a non-white, it's racist in your eyes. Maybe stop seeing skin color? Maybe start applying the same standard to every human being? Maybe stop being hypocritical racists yourselves?

The only shield against violence is conversation. Shutting dialogue off with everyone you disagree with by calling them racists right from the start, will only put more violence and malice into this world. Start looking in the mirror. I've been the victim of your close-minded vitriol since forever now, but I'm genuinely surprised that you usual suspects are so arrogant and offensive to so many others here.

He had a 92 QBR in the Super Bowl, compared to Jimmy Garoppalo's 69. 90 more yards passing, almost 70 more rushing.

He wasn't great, but he wasn't as bad as people make him out to be in retrospect.

Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 15:57:

RogueSix wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 15:28:

Prez wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 06:12:
Football is still about athletes with amazing skill right? I don't mind if he kneels, sits, stands on his head, whatever during the National Anthem. He really just isn't that good at Football.

Yeah. His Superbowl performance was abysmally bad. He was a nervous wreck who made mistake after mistake and poor judgment after poor judgment due to being scared shitless. He is obviously mentally inept to perform at the elite competitive level inherent to the NFL playoffs and especially the Super Bowl. He may be OK in regular league games so he should probably sign with a tail end club that does not run the risk of ever getting very far in the playoffs.

It's too bad we don't have something like sports statistics to objectively measure athlete performance and instead have to just rely on Internet racists to make subjective assessments for us.

QFT

RogueSix wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 15:28:

Prez wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 06:12:
Football is still about athletes with amazing skill right? I don't mind if he kneels, sits, stands on his head, whatever during the National Anthem. He really just isn't that good at Football.

Yeah. His Superbowl performance was abysmally bad. He was a nervous wreck who made mistake after mistake and poor judgment after poor judgment due to being scared shitless. He is obviously mentally inept to perform at the elite competitive level inherent to the NFL playoffs and especially the Super Bowl. He may be OK in regular league games so he should probably sign with a tail end club that does not run the risk of ever getting very far in the playoffs.

It's too bad we don't have something like sports statistics to objectively measure athlete performance and instead have to just rely on Internet racists to make subjective assessments for us.