Court: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine

TechCrunch has the latest on the ongoing legal battle between Epic Games and Apple (thanks Verno). As part of their dispute over royalties Apple yoinked Fortnite from their App Store and threatened to revoke Epic's ability to support the Unreal Engine. Word is the court has decided Apple is entitled to not sell Fortnite. But they've issued a temporary restraining order against dropping Epic's ability to support the Unreal Engine because of the havoc this would wreak. Here's more on the ruling:
U.S. District Court Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers said Apple can’t retaliate against Epic Games by blocking the gaming firm’s developer accounts or restrict developers on Apple platforms from accessing the widely-used Unreal Engine tools.

“The record shows potential significant damage to both the Unreal Engine platform itself, and to the gaming industry generally, including on both third-party developers and gamers,” she said, adding that even as Epic Games violated App Store’s guidelines, it did not breach any contracts related to Unreal Engine and developer tools.

“Apple has chosen to act severely, and by doing so, has impacted non-parties, and a third-party developer ecosystem,” said Rogers.

But the ruling was not a complete win for Epic Games, which had also requested the sleeper hit title Fortnite to be restored on the iOS App Store. Rogers said the game will remain off the App Store unless Epic Games attempted to bring it back in accordance with App Store guidelines.
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1.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 12:09
1.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 12:09
Aug 25, 2020, 12:09
 
The judge's ruling seems reasonable.
2.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 12:35
Verno
 
2.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 12:35
Aug 25, 2020, 12:35
 Verno
 
Yeah it seems like a very reasonable ruling. It was interesting that Fortnite was not allowed back yet because Epic failed to demonstrate harm due to it being self-inflicted:

Here, the Court’s evaluation is guided by the general notion that“self-inflicted wounds are not irreparable injury.”
Al Otro Lado v. Wolf
, 952 F.3d 999, 1008 (9thCir. 2020) (quoting
Second City Music, Inc. v. City of Chicago
, 333 F.3d 846, 850 (7th Cir.2003)). Further courts generally decline to find irreparable harm that “results from the expressterms of [the] contract.”
See Salt Lake Tribune Publ’g Co., LLC v. AT&T Corp.
, 320 F.3d 1081,1106 (10th Cir. 2003) (no irreparable harm where the alleged harm “results from the express termsof [the] contract”).

At its core, irreparable harm is harm or injury that cannot be repaired.The Court finds that with respect to Epic Games’ motion as to its games, includingFortnite, Epic Games has not yet demonstrated irreparable harm. The current predicament appearsof its own making.
See Second City Music
, 333 F.3d at 850 (“Only the injury inflicted by one’sadversary counts for this purpose.”). Epic Games remains free to maintain its agreements withApple in breach status as this litigation continues, but as the Seventh Circuit recognized in
SecondCity Music
, “[t]he sensible way to proceed is for [Epic to comply with the agreements andguidelines] and continue to operate while it builds a record.”
Id.
“Any injury that [Epic Gamesncurs by following a different course is of its own choosing.”
Id.
Epic Games admits that thetechnology exists to “fix” the problem easily by deactivating the “hotfix.” That Epic Gameswould prefer
not
to litigate in that context does not mean that “irreparable harm” exists

Anyways we'll see how things play out, many more of these things to come. Also interesting to note that Apple seems to be taking a bit of a different tack now and apologized and re-instated the Wordpress app.
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3.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 12:55
3.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 12:55
Aug 25, 2020, 12:55
 
So, Apple never actually yanked their Developer accounts... they only engaged in saber-rattling.

Fair enough... I'm sure they will just yank any app that bypasses their revenue system, regardless of the developer or engine... which is the way it should be.
Get your games from GOG DAMMIT!
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4.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 13:13
4.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 13:13
Aug 25, 2020, 13:13
 
How much cash is enough for these F$%*rs, seriously Apple piss off
5.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 13:25
Kxmode
 
5.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 13:25
Aug 25, 2020, 13:25
 Kxmode
 
Sluggabed wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:13:
How much cash is enough for these F$%*rs, seriously Apple piss off

When a developer lives under Apple's house, they play by Apple's rules. If Epic doesn't like it, they can start a competing AppStore platform. Oh, and while they're at it, Epic should make third-party apps exclusive to anger Apple and Android gamers.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
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6.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 13:27
6.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 13:27
Aug 25, 2020, 13:27
 
Sluggabed wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:13:
How much cash is enough for these F$%*rs, seriously Apple piss off
It's Apple, there can never be enough $$$.
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7.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 13:32
Verno
 
7.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 13:32
Aug 25, 2020, 13:32
 Verno
 
Kxmode wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:25:
When a developer lives under Apple's house, they play by Apple's rules

The judge seemed to agree:

But Rogers also offered a preview of her feelings on whether Epic was likely to succeed in its legal arguments against Apple's alleged monopoly power over the iOS app marketplace.

"Epic Games moves this Court to allow it to access Apple’s platform for free while it makes money on each purchase made on the same platform," Rogers wrote. "While the Court anticipates experts will opine that Apple’s 30 percent take is anti-competitive, the Court doubts that an expert would suggest a zero percent alternative. Not even Epic Games gives away its products for free."

She also noted that Epic can restore Fortnite by simply removing the patch that placed it offside of the store rules which was done intentionally for litigation purposes.
Playing: Xenoblade Chronicles DE, Ys IX, God of War
Watching: Lupin, You me and the Apocalypse, Days of Thunder
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8.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 14:47
8.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 14:47
Aug 25, 2020, 14:47
 
Kxmode wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:25:
Sluggabed wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:13:
How much cash is enough for these F$%*rs, seriously Apple piss off

When a developer lives under Apple's house, they play by Apple's rules. If Epic doesn't like it, they can start a competing AppStore platform. Oh, and while they're at it, Epic should make third-party apps exclusive to anger Apple and Android gamers.

On Android, yes, they can create their own store. It's actually why Android users can still use Fortnite going forward. It can be sideloaded from Epic's app.

On Apple, no, Epic literally can not create their own Appstore platform. They can't distribute anything, up to and including a store app without Apple's say. That's a significant chunk of the point. Saying that Epic should just go create their own store if they don't like Apple's rules is objectively dumb.

This is all just a slapfight using money (and customers) between all the companies involved, and I hope all three get nothing but papercuts and bruises in the end, but let's at least have some sense about ourselves.
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9.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 15:22
9.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 15:22
Aug 25, 2020, 15:22
 
Kxmode wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:25:
Sluggabed wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:13:
How much cash is enough for these F$%*rs, seriously Apple piss off

When a developer lives under Apple's house, they play by Apple's rules. If Epic doesn't like it, they can start a competing AppStore platform. Oh, and while they're at it, Epic should make third-party apps exclusive to anger Apple and Android gamers.
The question isn't "Should Apple have the ability to charge for it's services." Sweeney knows he's in the wrong, but he's making a larger point: "Should Apple be allowed to so dominate the market that they can charge 30%." We have anti-trust laws for a reason. Sweeney is trying to shame the government into action, or the threat of action.
COVID infections: 133M - - - COVID deaths: 3M - - - Death rate: 2%
Vaccines administered: 711M - - - Vaccine deaths: 7 - - - Death rate: 0.00000001%
Your choice is clear.
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10.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 15:58
10.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 15:58
Aug 25, 2020, 15:58
 
Apple owns both the software and the hardware it runs on, furthermore there are plenty of options in the consumer marketplace for cell phones, you don't need to own an Apple device. The real anti-trust action is occurring with Cellular service as the major players keep consolidating, but that is beside the point.

If Apple wants to charge 30% they can charge 30% whether it's moral or immoral, right or wrong, has no bearing it's their product from top to bottom and it has been this way since iOS debuted.
11.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 16:12
11.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 16:12
Aug 25, 2020, 16:12
 
Koshmar wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 15:58:
Apple owns both the software and the hardware it runs on, furthermore there are plenty of options in the consumer marketplace for cell phones, you don't need to own an Apple device. The real anti-trust action is occurring with Cellular service as the major players keep consolidating, but that is beside the point.

If Apple wants to charge 30% they can charge 30% whether it's moral or immoral, right or wrong, has no bearing it's their product from top to bottom and it has been this way since iOS debuted.

There aren't multiple options for app stores though. That's the point. Apple has more than 50% of the market, and won't allow non-App Store apps to be loaded on their devices. There have been multiple times in US history when the government has gone in and broken up vertically integrated market dominators when they've displayed anti-competitive behavior, like the movie studios back in the 1950s. Since when did America become the country of the monopoly? It's just shocking that people are okay with this. Apple should be forced to divest itself of the app store so that multiple competing stores can exist for Apple devices, like long distance phone service in the 1980s. Then we can have a true free market and actual competition.
COVID infections: 133M - - - COVID deaths: 3M - - - Death rate: 2%
Vaccines administered: 711M - - - Vaccine deaths: 7 - - - Death rate: 0.00000001%
Your choice is clear.
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12.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 16:23
12.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 16:23
Aug 25, 2020, 16:23
 
Apple can charge 90% if they wanted to. It would be stupid of them to do so, but they can charge what they want for THEIR platform.

The industry standard for online stores seems to be 30%, whether it be Steam or Google Play or whatever.. That is not Apple by itself raping developers. The industry, in general has apparently accepted those terms. At least until Sweeny came out trying to start a virtual riot.

Apple is a closed platform. You write something for IOS or OSX... you have to follow their rules in order to publish on their platform. Period.

If everyone got together and said "Fsck Apple" and didn't develop any apps for the platform anymore... you'd probably see them cut their price real quick.
But as long as you have developers chasing that 50% US market share, they're going keep putting up with a 30% cut.

So why is this 30% fair for Google Play? Because you can sideload?
Jailbreak your IOS device and sideload then.
There also seems to be a non-jailbreak way at altstore.io
Don't want to risk jailbreaking or some weird underground store (which I would argue is what you are already doing on android)? Buy a dev account for $100 and sideload.

Ya'll can't just dictate what YOU think the price should be on their platform... and neither can Sweeny.

This comment was edited on Aug 25, 2020, 16:50.
Get your games from GOG DAMMIT!
Avatar 19499
13.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 17:15
Kxmode
 
13.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 17:15
Aug 25, 2020, 17:15
 Kxmode
 
Sacrifex wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 14:47:
Kxmode wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:25:
Sluggabed wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:13:
How much cash is enough for these F$%*rs, seriously Apple piss off

When a developer lives under Apple's house, they play by Apple's rules. If Epic doesn't like it, they can start a competing AppStore platform. Oh, and while they're at it, Epic should make third-party apps exclusive to anger Apple and Android gamers.

On Android, yes, they can create their own store. It's actually why Android users can still use Fortnite going forward. It can be sideloaded from Epic's app.

On Apple, no, Epic literally can not create their own Appstore platform. They can't distribute anything, up to and including a store app without Apple's say. That's a significant chunk of the point. Saying that Epic should just go create their own store if they don't like Apple's rules is objectively dumb.

There's no such thing as "cannot install apps on IOS outside the Appstore."
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
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14.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 17:28
14.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 17:28
Aug 25, 2020, 17:28
 
Bill Borre wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 12:09:
The judge's ruling seems reasonable.

No it's not, it's a terrible ruling. Apple should have complete say over who is selling and what is sold on their storefront. In other words, "The management reserves the right to refuse service." Devs should be going through Epic's storefront to begin with. I don't see how or why this should be Apple's responsibility. It sounds like the judge doesn't understand this or gaming in general, especially making statements like this doozy....
“The record shows potential significant damage to both the Unreal Engine platform itself, and to the gaming industry generally

Significant damage to the gaming industry in general? And how is that exactly? I'll bet dollars to donuts this appealed and overturned.


"You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."
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15.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 17:30
Kxmode
 
15.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 17:30
Aug 25, 2020, 17:30
 Kxmode
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 15:22:
Kxmode wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:25:
Sluggabed wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:13:
How much cash is enough for these F$%*rs, seriously Apple piss off

When a developer lives under Apple's house, they play by Apple's rules. If Epic doesn't like it, they can start a competing AppStore platform. Oh, and while they're at it, Epic should make third-party apps exclusive to anger Apple and Android gamers.
The question isn't "Should Apple have the ability to charge for it's services." Sweeney knows he's in the wrong, but he's making a larger point: "Should Apple be allowed to so dominate the market that they can charge 30%." We have anti-trust laws for a reason. Sweeney is trying to shame the government into action, or the threat of action.

Apple should be allowed to charge for its platform and services. It doesn't matter the percentage Apple charges. It's their platform. Further, this is not an anti-trust situation. A genuine anti-trust case would be if Apple actively tried to prevent Google from developing Android or Valve went against Epic with their store. People keep misunderstanding what anti-trust is. Apple created its IOS platform, and so it is their prerogative to decide how people use it. If a company like Epic doesn't like the rules, they should do the capitalist thing and create a competing platform. They did so with their Game Store against Valve. Microsoft put in the work and now owns a sizeable percentage of the western console market, Valve put in the work and now dominate PC gaming, and Apple and Google put in the work, and now they dominate the app market. My gripe against Epic is that they are sitting on mountains of money and want to own a market, but they don't want to put in the work and expense. Their Games Store is a perfect example of attempting to bypass YEARS of hard work to get to the front of the line.

This comment was edited on Aug 25, 2020, 17:47.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
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16.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 17:56
Kxmode
 
16.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 17:56
Aug 25, 2020, 17:56
 Kxmode
 
wtf_man wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 16:23:
Apple can charge 90% if they wanted to. It would be stupid of them to do so, but they can charge what they want for THEIR platform.

Exactly. Apple is wise enough to understand a free marketing economy. So yeah, charging 90% is doable, but it would rapidly dry up their catalog of apps.

wtf_man wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 16:23:
The industry standard for online stores seems to be 30%, whether it be Steam or Google Play or whatever.

Yup. That 30% also covers the costs Apple incurred to develop and maintain its platform and infrastructure, plus ancillary benefits like cross-marketing on the Appstore. Perhaps Tim's gripe is his Fortnite game doesn't need all those bells and whistles, but by charging 30%, this ensures both big and small App developers benefit from the platform as a whole. Besides, in the world of business, 30% tends to be a nominal fee for most B2B services. It can cost several hundred to thousands of dollars to receive professional training and certification. All of this is simply the cost of doing business.

wtf_man wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 16:23:
Ya'll can't just dictate what YOU think the price should be on their platform... and neither can Sweeny.

Epic should start a competing platform. I double-dare them. Perhaps then they won't have the money to do third-party publisher exclusives.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
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17.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 18:16
17.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 18:16
Aug 25, 2020, 18:16
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 15:22:
Kxmode wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:25:
Sluggabed wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 13:13:
How much cash is enough for these F$%*rs, seriously Apple piss off

When a developer lives under Apple's house, they play by Apple's rules. If Epic doesn't like it, they can start a competing AppStore platform. Oh, and while they're at it, Epic should make third-party apps exclusive to anger Apple and Android gamers.
The question isn't "Should Apple have the ability to charge for it's services." Sweeney knows he's in the wrong, but he's making a larger point: "Should Apple be allowed to so dominate the market that they can charge 30%." We have anti-trust laws for a reason. Sweeney is trying to shame the government into action, or the threat of action.

Why does Apple dominate the market? Because 1) they created it, 2) Applie and IOS has a great thing in 1 OS, and 1 store. It doesn't have all the horrible splintering of it's own brand like Google and Android. If you want a comparison Apple is like the console's of cell phones. Things just WORK, where Google and Android is like PC's. You have everything from a 386 to a I-9 running Android. Apple is pretty good about being level headed in it's policy's but when you have Epic using it's own game as propaganda there is something seriously wrong. Kids these days won't care cause they want more Fortnight but when was the last time you've ever seen RL dev drama being put in a game? I personally can't remember any instance.

As someone mentioned Tim has some sorta bi-polar/split personality disorder going on. Not to mention the Hipocracy. Tim is in it for the money plain and simple. You gotta spend money (IE all the free game giveaways, that are being bought with the shit ton of free money coming in from Fortnight) to make money, but yet bitches that first Steam, then Google, now Apple are being unfair.
Avatar 12670
18.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 18:25
18.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 18:25
Aug 25, 2020, 18:25
 
If I was Epic, I would put the word out that they are not supporting Apple at all. Just to piss them off.
Avatar 52166
19.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 18:28
19.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 18:28
Aug 25, 2020, 18:28
 
wtf_man wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 16:23:
Apple can charge 90% if they wanted to. It would be stupid of them to do so, but they can charge what they want for THEIR platform.

Sorry, but unregulated monopolies aren't legal. That's why we have anti-trust laws. The fact that the government hasn't finished it's investigation doesn't mean it's not true. And if the government drops the case, that just means we're living in an oligarchy, not a democracy:.

Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic-Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.

You should be really upset that Apple owns 57% of the app market and charge an egregious 30% for running a website and a few hundred servers. The app store probably costs them a few hundred mil to run per year, while pulling in $10B. You know who pays that difference? You do.
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Vaccines administered: 711M - - - Vaccine deaths: 7 - - - Death rate: 0.00000001%
Your choice is clear.
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20.
 
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine
Aug 25, 2020, 18:35
20.
Re: Apple Can Block Fortnite But Not the Unreal Engine Aug 25, 2020, 18:35
Aug 25, 2020, 18:35
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 18:28:
wtf_man wrote on Aug 25, 2020, 16:23:
Apple can charge 90% if they wanted to. It would be stupid of them to do so, but they can charge what they want for THEIR platform.

Sorry, but unregulated monopolies aren't legal. That's why we have anti-trust laws. The fact that the government hasn't finished it's investigation doesn't mean it's not true. And if the government drops the case, that just means we're living in an oligarchy, not a democracy:.

Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic-Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.

You should be really upset that Apple owns 57% of the app market and charge an egregious 30% for running a website and a few hundred servers. The app store probably costs them a few hundred mil to run per year, while pulling in $10B. You know who pays that difference? You do.
30% is pure Hitler levels of extortion.
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41 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
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