Epic Sues Apple

Well that escalated quickly. Since Epic's effort to circumvent mobile platform fees reported this morning, Fortnite has been kicked off of both Apple's and Google's stores. As a result, Epic is suing Apple, accusing them of monopolistic practices. Epic has also released a new video called Nineteen Eighty-Fortnite, using the message from Apple's legendary 1984 commercial against them. The Washington Post has details on the legal action:
“Apple’s removal of Fortnite is yet another example of Apple flexing its enormous power in order to impose unreasonable restraints and unlawfully maintain its 100 percent monopoly over the iOS In-App Payment Processing Market,” the filing reads.

Apple spokesperson Fred Sainz said the company removed Fortnite from the store after Epic violated its guidelines.

“Epic enabled a feature in its app which was not reviewed or approved by Apple, and they did so with the express intent of violating the App Store guidelines regarding in-app payments that apply to every developer who sells digital goods or services,” he said in an emailed statement.

Google had removed Fortnite from its Play Store as of late Thursday. Android users can still download Fortnite directly from Epic’s website.

Update: Epic is also suing Google.

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86.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 16, 2020, 10:30
86.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 16, 2020, 10:30
Aug 16, 2020, 10:30
 
Verno wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 23:02:
Epic's end game here is to get the EGS on the App Store and on Google Play, selling their games and paying nothing back to the platform holders. I don't think they should have a legal right to do that if Apple and Google don't want to let them, its their platform and storefront that took considerable risk to build and pay a lot of money to maintain.
I believe this is correct. As long as Epic doesn't allow others to put products on their platform for free, they simply don't have a leg to stand on.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies." -- Groucho Marx
85.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 23:02
Verno
 
85.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 23:02
Aug 15, 2020, 23:02
 Verno
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 17:28:
And yet, none other than the US Justice Dept and EU think that Apples app store practices constitutes an illegal monopoly.

Two incomplete investigations does not a monopoly make. Apple and Google charge a standard 70/30 split, like every other retail industry that Epic did business with and just like all of the console manufacturers which Epic is silent about. In the case of Google people can even sideload apps and entire alternative stores, a practice Google probably regrets given how many problems with security its caused. So why should Google be forced to let Epic operate its own competing storefront on their platform for free? Why should either company be punished for the crime of making a successful platform at considerable risk, at the cost of billions of dollars over the past 12 years? Why should Apple be forced to allow other companies to operate unregulated storefronts on their platform? It would be damaging to their ecosystem and they literally built the platform around a unified experience from top to bottom. And again why should Tim Sweeney be allowed to decide his own revenue share when he did nothing to build out the platform or help to maintain its infrastructure? Why is it OK for Microsoft or Sony to do that but not Apple or Google? Why is it OK for Epic to continually try to end run the rules they agreed to abide by? And then to do so with not just a lesser revenue share but also attempting to have no split at all? Who gets to decide what is a fair share?

Look man, Apple fucking sucks. I hate pretty much every product they make except the iPhone. Our company even had apps rejected from the app store so I speak from a place of experience when it comes to the strict regulation about submissions there. The company dodges taxes and gets into a lot of other shit I don't approve of. But what Epic is doing here sucks just as much and they are no fucking saints. Epic's end game here is to get the EGS on the App Store and on Google Play, selling their games and paying nothing back to the platform holders. I don't think they should have a legal right to do that if Apple and Google don't want to let them, its their platform and storefront that took considerable risk to build and pay a lot of money to maintain. Epic is attempting to use the legal system to force Google and Apple to let them do whatever they want with IAP. Given how much of a shitshow IAP on mobile is already, that doesn't sound like a recipe that will be good for consumers to me.
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84.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 18:30
84.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 18:30
Aug 15, 2020, 18:30
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 17:23:
Orogogus wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 04:10:
jdreyer wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 03:19:
I agree that Epic is of course in this instance acting in self-interest. That doesn't take away from the fact that there's a duopoly in the mobile app space and the 30% fee is way out of whack from what it takes to operate such a business.
There's no duopoly in the PC space, but 30% is still standard across Steam, GOG, Origin and the Microsoft Store (for games, at least), as well as Sony and Nintendo (and Microsoft again) in the console space, and Oculus for VR. It doesn't seem like the mobile duopoly is propping up that number.

In the PC game space, Steam is a monopoly with 75% of the revenue. So of course everyone follows their lead. Well, almost everyone. Epic isn't.
Nor do itch.io (where you can give 100% to the developer if you want), or Humble Store (95%).

At the point where you complain about Steam's 75% monopoly despite being on an open PC platform, and Sony, Xbox, Nintendo, Microsoft PC, Apple, Android and Oculus all being monopolies or duopolies, at the same time you mutter about anti-trust actions, it sounds like the end goal is to destroy any trace of success. The EGS doesn't have Steam's feature list, or offer developer cuts as high as itch or Humble Bundle, but apparently it deserves to have equal market share, and the government should make it so.
83.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 17:32
83.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 17:32
Aug 15, 2020, 17:32
 
Verno wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 13:26:
Jivaro wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 12:27:
Is the short version of this that Epic wants to be able to sell for cheaper on the apple app store OR is that they simply want to be able to sell apple games on their launcher/site? Is it both? I guess I am confused.

It's Epic wanting the Epic Games Store on the App Store and Play Store. Ignore the other nonsense, that's the endgame. They're losing $50mil a month for this and it's not for an extra 5%, they want the ability to use Apple and Googles stores to build their own install base on mobile and sell their own IAP and products there. Basically to use the platforms while paying nothing into them. They claim it's about a "fair split" but have repeatedly tried to pay zero which has gotten them kicked off both stores in the past. So fair to Epic seems to mean nothing, literally and figuratively.

Apple and Google charge the same industry split as the console makers that Epic is oddly silent about and neither really competes with Epic. I don't really care who wins this silliness because none of it will likely mean anything for consumers but the way Epic tried to involve customers is really absurd.

Gotta fight one battle at a time. I suspect they make a lot more off mobile than console.
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82.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 17:28
82.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 17:28
Aug 15, 2020, 17:28
 
Verno wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 08:55:
jdreyer wrote:
I agree that Epic is of course in this instance acting in self-interest. That doesn't take away from the fact that there's a duopoly in the mobile app space and the 30% fee is way out of whack from what it takes to operate such a business.

It's a standard split and has been that way since the retail days. Traditional overhead like leases has been replaced with large capital investments in hardware and other operational costs. And heck unlike Google Apple actually does maintain retail stores, a lot of them. And again Epic doesn't seem to mind doing business with Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft who all operate walled gardens with a 70/30 split. Epic is full of shit here, plain and simple. You don't get to leverage someone else's platform and choose whatever price you want. And you don't get to break the rules consistently without getting your game removed.

And yet, none other than the US Justice Dept and EU think that Apples app store practices constitutes an illegal monopoly.

Perhaps the most harmful expression of this power is Apple’s exorbitant 30% tax on developers, which is now the subject of antitrust investigations in both the United States and the European Union. To be clear, this is an enormous fee and would be intolerable in normal market conditions, but it’s particularly damaging if you offer a product that competes with Apple. It is hard to stay competitive if you are forced to pay your competitor 30% of all of your earnings.
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81.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 17:23
81.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 17:23
Aug 15, 2020, 17:23
 
Orogogus wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 04:10:
jdreyer wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 03:19:
I agree that Epic is of course in this instance acting in self-interest. That doesn't take away from the fact that there's a duopoly in the mobile app space and the 30% fee is way out of whack from what it takes to operate such a business.
There's no duopoly in the PC space, but 30% is still standard across Steam, GOG, Origin and the Microsoft Store (for games, at least), as well as Sony and Nintendo (and Microsoft again) in the console space, and Oculus for VR. It doesn't seem like the mobile duopoly is propping up that number.

In the PC game space, Steam is a monopoly with 75% of the revenue. So of course everyone follows their lead. Well, almost everyone. Epic isn't.
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80.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 16:27
Jivaro
 
80.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 16:27
Aug 15, 2020, 16:27
 Jivaro
 
Verno wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 13:26:
Jivaro wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 12:27:
Is the short version of this that Epic wants to be able to sell for cheaper on the apple app store OR is that they simply want to be able to sell apple games on their launcher/site? Is it both? I guess I am confused.

It's Epic wanting the Epic Games Store on the App Store and Play Store. Ignore the other nonsense, that's the endgame. They're losing $50mil a month for this and it's not for an extra 5%, they want the ability to use Apple and Googles stores to build their own install base on mobile and sell their own IAP and products there. Basically to use the platforms while paying nothing into them. They claim it's about a "fair split" but have repeatedly tried to pay zero which has gotten them kicked off both stores in the past. So fair to Epic seems to mean nothing, literally and figuratively.

Apple and Google charge the same industry split as the console makers that Epic is oddly silent about and neither really competes with Epic. I don't really care who wins this silliness because none of it will likely mean anything for consumers but the way Epic tried to involve customers is really absurd.

Thanks! That makes a ton more sense.
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79.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 13:26
Verno
 
79.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 13:26
Aug 15, 2020, 13:26
 Verno
 
Jivaro wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 12:27:
Is the short version of this that Epic wants to be able to sell for cheaper on the apple app store OR is that they simply want to be able to sell apple games on their launcher/site? Is it both? I guess I am confused.

It's Epic wanting the Epic Games Store on the App Store and Play Store. Ignore the other nonsense, that's the endgame. They're losing $50mil a month for this and it's not for an extra 5%, they want the ability to use Apple and Googles stores to build their own install base on mobile and sell their own IAP and products there. Basically to use the platforms while paying nothing into them. They claim it's about a "fair split" but have repeatedly tried to pay zero which has gotten them kicked off both stores in the past. So fair to Epic seems to mean nothing, literally and figuratively.

Apple and Google charge the same industry split as the console makers that Epic is oddly silent about and neither really competes with Epic. I don't really care who wins this silliness because none of it will likely mean anything for consumers but the way Epic tried to involve customers is really absurd.
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78.
 
Re: 1984!
Aug 15, 2020, 12:34
78.
Re: 1984! Aug 15, 2020, 12:34
Aug 15, 2020, 12:34
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 20:56:
Hmm, that first article seems to undermine your contention

Remember, all I said was that there are idiots out there claiming math is racist, and Googling the phrase "math is racist" will get you results.

In the first article:
Western Math critics worry about more nuanced issues, such as why we teach kids Western counting and not, for example, how the Aborigines count.

Apparently, ancient cultures also used different terminology to refer to addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. They may have focused on geometric shapes different from triangles and circles. They may have called the degrees in a circle something other than degrees.

I wasn't debating the specifics of common core and it's flaws.

The second article... you pretty much nailed it. And that comes from an Professor (educator). Fairly scary. I also agree that if we bring race into this (which we shouldn't) that statistically Asians are superior at "Western Math", which makes it fairly ironic since they are considered "Eastern".

As for the testing... I disagree for the most part. If everyone is taught the same ("racist curriculum" according to some), then everyone should pass the same ("racist" according to some) tests. A lot of it has to do with how one is raised at home. Does the parent actually "parent" and try to help their child apply themselves at school? Or is school just daycare to the parent? I would say that in "poorer environments" (race doesn't matter... can be white ghetto's too)... the parents don't have the skills nor possibly the desire (especially if they are dysfunctional / broken homes) to help their kids be successful. So, I think that's mainly why you see poorer test scores in those situations. I don't think race has anything to do with it... and it's being thrown out as an "excuse" instead of folks taking responsibility... which is more and more what our society has become.

That said... this all got started with me making a crack at the education system for Millennials onward and getting someone's panties in a twist.
I still maintain my opinion that if we continue to politicize the education system, over-correct with "social justice political correctness re-education" instead of sticking mainly to academics, which is what most need to be successful in their careers... that our education system is going down the drain.
The more I see ridiculous claims like the one we have been discussing... the more I will think that our education system is already fsched.

Old Man Flatearther, signing off.
Get your games from GOG DAMMIT!
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77.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 12:27
Jivaro
 
77.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 12:27
Aug 15, 2020, 12:27
 Jivaro
 
Is the short version of this that Epic wants to be able to sell for cheaper on the apple app store OR is that they simply want to be able to sell apple games on their launcher/site? Is it both? I guess I am confused.
Avatar 55841
76.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 11:15
76.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 11:15
Aug 15, 2020, 11:15
 
Lawful Masses with Leonard French
Lawyer Reacts! Fortnite's Epic Battle with Apple
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75.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 11:10
75.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 11:10
Aug 15, 2020, 11:10
 
How Epic could actually win its cases against Apple and Google
Lawyers and experts say Epic's lawsuits are surprisingly serious — and the $17 billion gaming company actually has a shot at winning.
"This is a really well-put-together lawsuit that they obviously had been planning for quite a while," said Chris Saagers, a professor at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law who has written extensively about antitrust issues around Apple. "They've done their homework."

For one, Epic's cases are backed by multiple superstar attorneys in the antitrust world, including Christine Varney, a former U.S. assistant attorney general within the Justice Department's antitrust division, and Katherine Forrest, who served as the U.S. district judge for the Southern District of New York as well as a deputy in the DOJ antitrust division. (Forrest and Varney now work at Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP — ironically, the firm that represented IBM, which Apple named as a monopolist when it first launched the App Store.)

Their names alone give the case a boost of credibility, said John Newman, an associate professor of law at the University of Miami and former DOJ antitrust lawyer. "I frankly don't think those types of attorneys take on cases that aren't serious," he said.

The cases also appear to be promising, experts said. Epic is arguing that Apple and Google use their "monopoly" power over their respective app stores to stifle competition and harm rivals, specifically focusing on their policies of taking a 30% cut of all in-app purchases. The argument is reminiscent of landmark tech antitrust case U.S. v. Microsoft, in which Microsoft was found guilty of violating the law.

It's notable that Epic is not seeking any monetary relief. Instead, the company is looking for court orders that would prevent Apple and Google from further engaging in their "anti-competitive conduct" over the app stores.
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74.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 08:55
Verno
 
74.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 08:55
Aug 15, 2020, 08:55
 Verno
 
jdreyer wrote:
I agree that Epic is of course in this instance acting in self-interest. That doesn't take away from the fact that there's a duopoly in the mobile app space and the 30% fee is way out of whack from what it takes to operate such a business.

It's a standard split and has been that way since the retail days. Traditional overhead like leases has been replaced with large capital investments in hardware and other operational costs. And heck unlike Google Apple actually does maintain retail stores, a lot of them. And again Epic doesn't seem to mind doing business with Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft who all operate walled gardens with a 70/30 split. Epic is full of shit here, plain and simple. You don't get to leverage someone else's platform and choose whatever price you want. And you don't get to break the rules consistently without getting your game removed.
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73.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 04:10
73.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 04:10
Aug 15, 2020, 04:10
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 15, 2020, 03:19:
I agree that Epic is of course in this instance acting in self-interest. That doesn't take away from the fact that there's a duopoly in the mobile app space and the 30% fee is way out of whack from what it takes to operate such a business.
There's no duopoly in the PC space, but 30% is still standard across Steam, GOG, Origin and the Microsoft Store (for games, at least), as well as Sony and Nintendo (and Microsoft again) in the console space, and Oculus for VR. It doesn't seem like the mobile duopoly is propping up that number.
72.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 15, 2020, 03:19
72.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 15, 2020, 03:19
Aug 15, 2020, 03:19
 
Verno wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 22:11:
I think the difference is that Apple and Google are trying to maintain their duopoly of an entire industry, whereas Epic is trying to break a monopoly.

Epic is trying to increase its revenue share by doing an end run around the rules of another companys storefront. Nothing more than that. Meanwhile they are silent about doing business with Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo who all have walled gardens and the same revenue split. Not so fun standing on morals when it could jeopardize their mainline revenue and business relationships in the gaming industry.

Epic is not doing consumers any favors here, it's trying to do itself one. It's welcome to try but leave the rest of us out of it thanks, that video is pathetic.

But that's how Amazon's Kindle app works: the app is free, and Apple doesn't get a dime of the book purchases made through the app.

There are no book purchases through the iOS app. It's just for viewing stuff you purchased on Amazon.

I agree that Epic is of course in this instance acting in self-interest. That doesn't take away from the fact that there's a duopoly in the mobile app space and the 30% fee is way out of whack from what it takes to operate such a business.
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71.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 14, 2020, 22:11
Verno
 
71.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 14, 2020, 22:11
Aug 14, 2020, 22:11
 Verno
 
I think the difference is that Apple and Google are trying to maintain their duopoly of an entire industry, whereas Epic is trying to break a monopoly.

Epic is trying to increase its revenue share by doing an end run around the rules of another companys storefront. Nothing more than that. Meanwhile they are silent about doing business with Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo who all have walled gardens and the same revenue split. Not so fun standing on morals when it could jeopardize their mainline revenue and business relationships in the gaming industry.

Epic is not doing consumers any favors here, it's trying to do itself one. It's welcome to try but leave the rest of us out of it thanks, that video is pathetic.

But that's how Amazon's Kindle app works: the app is free, and Apple doesn't get a dime of the book purchases made through the app.

There are no book purchases through the iOS app. It's just for viewing stuff you purchased on Amazon.

This comment was edited on Aug 14, 2020, 22:42.
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70.
 
Re: 1984!
Aug 14, 2020, 20:56
70.
Re: 1984! Aug 14, 2020, 20:56
Aug 14, 2020, 20:56
 
wtf_man wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 19:20:
jdreyer wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 17:55:

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "math is racist." Do you have any links to share?

Sure.

Googled the phrase and 3rd link is an example of what I'm talking about.

To be clear... Math literally (2+2=4) is not racist (That would be silly)... but claims of "western math" as it is taught, is being claimed as "racist".

Seattle Schools Propose To Teach That Math Education Is Racist—Will California Be Far Behind?

Another one:

Prof: Algebra, geometry perpetuate white privilege


Hmm, that first article seems to undermine your contention:

There is a better way to help California’s kids succeed at math than to go down the road of racism and identity politics. Simply reintroduce the principles of math education used in the state before the development of Common Core curriculum.

As for the second article, if this is the argument, I'd like to see some empirical evidence. Not saying it's not true, but it just seems unlikely. Typically we don't ever discuss the lives or people who originated specific mathematical theories, so this argument appears to be much less valid that it would for something like World History, were it to focus mostly on European accomplishments ignoring the historical contributions made by the Chinese, Arabic peoples, etc:

“On many levels, mathematics itself operates as Whiteness. Who gets credit for doing and developing mathematics, who is capable in mathematics, and who is seen as part of the mathematical community is generally viewed as White,” Gutierrez argued.

Gutierrez also worries that algebra and geometry perpetuate privilege, fretting that “curricula emphasizing terms like Pythagorean theorem and pi perpetuate a perception that mathematics was largely developed by Greeks and other Europeans."

When you look at national math rankings by country, it's dominated by nonwhite non-Western nations. If racial bias were truly a factor, shouldn't Western countries top that list?

As I said before, I've read articles contending bias in standardized testing. There's some logic to this, and the tests are written mostly by white people, so the examples and selections are things that white, middle class people are experienced with where poor and minority people may not be. A reading comprehension section based on the game tennis would be instantly familiar to someone familiar with the game and require less effort to comprehend than someone unfamiliar. Not a lot of tennis courts in the inner city.

Anyway, I'm not saying "Math is racist" is an invalid argument, but I'd like to see more rigor backing it up before I buy into it. Right now it seems pretty weak. I'd be much more willing to believe it for something like history, or English class, or something where the content could contain actual bias.
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69.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 14, 2020, 20:54
69.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 14, 2020, 20:54
Aug 14, 2020, 20:54
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 20:29:
Drayth wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 08:24:
You guys realize under Epic's model developers could shift to making more free games, and generate revenue purely through in-app purchases. These stores would never see a dime on those titles but would be expected to maintain the store front, curate and host them.
But that's how Amazon's Kindle app works: the app is free, and Apple doesn't get a dime of the book purchases made through the app. Why should Epic be treated any differently if their products are also cross-platform?

They find their own ways around it.
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68.
 
Re: Epic Sues Apple
Aug 14, 2020, 20:29
68.
Re: Epic Sues Apple Aug 14, 2020, 20:29
Aug 14, 2020, 20:29
 
Drayth wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 08:24:
You guys realize under Epic's model developers could shift to making more free games, and generate revenue purely through in-app purchases. These stores would never see a dime on those titles but would be expected to maintain the store front, curate and host them.
But that's how Amazon's Kindle app works: the app is free, and Apple doesn't get a dime of the book purchases made through the app. Why should Epic be treated any differently if their products are also cross-platform?
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67.
 
Re: 1984!
Aug 14, 2020, 20:19
67.
Re: 1984! Aug 14, 2020, 20:19
Aug 14, 2020, 20:19
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 17:50:
Beamer wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 13:25:
wtf_man wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 13:20:
Beamer wrote on Aug 14, 2020, 13:17:

Nothing you said is accurate.

And you are entitled to your opinion.

/shrug

This is like a flat earther saying it's a matter of opinion.
Factually, no school is calling math "racist," and no one of any importance is.
Factually, no school is ignoring science for "bathroom etiquette," and if they're teaching about multiple genders, that's because it's objectively accurate science. If you're disputing that, it's because your teachers failed you, not current teachers failing anyone.

Do you have any middle school aged children, or do you get your knowledge of our current school curriculum from Twitter?

Opinions can be scientifically inaccurate and factually incorrect, flat earther.

Both my kids buy completely into LGBTQ, because kids aren't closeted in their school, they know them, and they don't think there's anything wrong/bad/strange about being that way.
Good to hear.
The world is changing for the better.
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