Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch

The transcript of yesterday's CD Projekt RED conference call reveals that the delay to Cyberpunk 2077 will not prevent the dreaded crunch that so often is part of wrapping up a game's development (thanks VG247). This comes despite a couple of promises that the developers of their RPG would not have to crunch to complete the game. Here's the question and the answer provided by the company's joint-CEO Adam Kiciński:
P6: And is the development team required to put in crunch hours?

AK: To some degree, yes – to be honest. We try to limit crunch as much as possible, but it is the final stage. We try to be reasonable in this regard, but yes. Unfortunately.
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28.
 
Re: Morning Consolidation
Jan 19, 2020, 12:48
28.
Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 19, 2020, 12:48
Jan 19, 2020, 12:48
 
"put in" can be read as both present and past tense I believe
27.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Jan 18, 2020, 17:06
Kxmode
 
27.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Jan 18, 2020, 17:06
Jan 18, 2020, 17:06
 Kxmode
 
jdreyer wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 21:53:
Kxmode wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 21:23:
The Magician wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 19:47:
Kxmode wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 18:41:

Everyone take a shot every time you see the F-word. Innocent

Sorry, I'm pretty passionate about devs not being treated like slaves, 40-50 hours a week like everyone else does should be perfectly doable.

I can agree with that. I put in 50-70 hour weeks as one of only two programmers on a large eCommerce platform. It's too much work and we're spread out too thin trying to keep up. There's no sense that they'll bring on another resource to assist.
As long as you keep working 70 hours a week, why would they?

I wrote "I put in 50-70 hour weeks." In other words, I'm not working 70 hours every week. Is it too much to ask for better comprehension?
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
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26.
 
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch
Jan 18, 2020, 11:09
26.
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch Jan 18, 2020, 11:09
Jan 18, 2020, 11:09
 
Cutter wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 23:55:
It's completely unnecessary and shows bad management. Not to mention it's wholly inefficient. After 10 hours at most you're mentally checked out so you're just wasting time and money at that point.

Exactly, it has been proven time and time again that after what? I think it's 6 hours of work per day? Your efficiency drops like a stone in freefall.

Ideally if you want to crunch, then let them rest during their workday, do something else. Like maybe 6 hours of work, rest/sleep time of at least 90 minutes ( one complete sleep cycle ), then another 4 hours of work max.

8+ hours straight of work/day is just dumb and counterproductive.
25.
 
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch
Jan 17, 2020, 23:55
Cutter
 
25.
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch Jan 17, 2020, 23:55
Jan 17, 2020, 23:55
 Cutter
 
It's completely unnecessary and shows bad management. Not to mention it's wholly inefficient. After 10 hours at most you're mentally checked out so you're just wasting time and money at that point.
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24.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Jan 17, 2020, 21:53
24.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Jan 17, 2020, 21:53
Jan 17, 2020, 21:53
 
Kxmode wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 21:23:
The Magician wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 19:47:
Kxmode wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 18:41:

Everyone take a shot every time you see the F-word. Innocent

Sorry, I'm pretty passionate about devs not being treated like slaves, 40-50 hours a week like everyone else does should be perfectly doable.

I can agree with that. I put in 50-70 hour weeks as one of only two programmers on a large eCommerce platform. It's too much work and we're spread out too thin trying to keep up. There's no sense that they'll bring on another resource to assist.
As long as you keep working 70 hours a week, why would they?
To prevent CV-19, avoid the Serious Seven: weddings, funerals, faith-based activities, bars, gyms, house gatherings and other small events.
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23.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Jan 17, 2020, 21:51
23.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Jan 17, 2020, 21:51
Jan 17, 2020, 21:51
 
The Magician wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 17:42:
saluk wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 17:38:
HAHAHA

We don't have enough time to finish the game. We have about 10 months of work left. So let's just delay 5 months, burn out our developers, and still end up releasing the game too early.

Exactly what I was trying to say, but I said with a lot more foul language, because I've been a gamedev. I might have to return to it, too, now that I'm unemployed. ugh.
What's your thoughts on unionization?
Edit: ninja'd by Prez.
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22.
 
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch
Jan 17, 2020, 21:50
22.
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch Jan 17, 2020, 21:50
Jan 17, 2020, 21:50
 
Prez wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 15:31:
Mandatory overtime is just a fact of life in a large percentage of blue collar jobs. I work on an airport for a major shipping carrier and they can and will mandatory you for dozens of hours of overtime a week if necessary. A snowstorm or ice storm for example means you get an extra 12 hour shift added to your work week at a minimum. You can easily work up to 17 hours a day for 7 days. It sucks but it just comes with the job. It's brutal and frankly dehumanizing but it pays well and thankfully workweeks that brutal are pretty rare. It has been worse at other jobs, but thankfully techs in my field are highly sought after so changing jobs, as much of a pain in the ass as that can be, is always an option. "Crunch" is a thing in more places than just in games development, but what makes it unique in the gaming industry is that, according to reports on Bioware and Epic, it is constant. It can go on months or even years at a time. The psychological toll this takes on a person cannot be overstated. I get that there will be periods of time where it is simply unavoidable, but to operate like that continuously is fucking criminal. If CD Projekt Red is putting their people in crunch mode from now until September that is just fucked up beyond description. No game, no matter how great, is worth the toll something like that will take on the people who have to suffer through it.
The difference is that you get paid for your crunch, they don't. Unions could help mitigate/prevent that.
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21.
 
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch
Jan 17, 2020, 21:46
21.
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch Jan 17, 2020, 21:46
Jan 17, 2020, 21:46
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 14:03:
With rare exception, crunch is a sign of bad management. It shows a failure to properly forecast man hours.
Large scale software projects are notoriously hard to forecast. That's why Agile was invented.
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20.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Jan 17, 2020, 21:39
20.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Jan 17, 2020, 21:39
Jan 17, 2020, 21:39
 
So Devil's Advocate Time:

What would cause delays in the game that would delay it, or "not plan for crunch"?

Story/Writing? Something with the story wasn't working out or wasn't a problem until the end of the game and had to be we-written, and if you do that then you have an issue of all the art assets/voice assets to go with the.
Gameplay/Design?
Programing?

Sometimes shit happens for lord knows why reason. As as stated Crunch mode happens at most jobs, and you don't hear about it unless it's a shitty company like EA that was having crunch mode from day one because they were realsing games on a yearly schedule.

Using a steering wheel on a Burnout game is like using the Space Shuttle controls to fly a kite.
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19.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Jan 17, 2020, 21:23
Kxmode
 
19.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Jan 17, 2020, 21:23
Jan 17, 2020, 21:23
 Kxmode
 
The Magician wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 19:47:
Kxmode wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 18:41:

Everyone take a shot every time you see the F-word. Innocent

Sorry, I'm pretty passionate about devs not being treated like slaves, 40-50 hours a week like everyone else does should be perfectly doable.

I can agree with that. I put in 50-70 hour weeks as one of only two programmers on a large eCommerce platform. It's too much work and we're spread out too thin trying to keep up. There's no sense that they'll bring on another resource to assist.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
Avatar 18786
18.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Jan 17, 2020, 21:08
Prez
 
18.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Jan 17, 2020, 21:08
Jan 17, 2020, 21:08
 Prez
 
The Magician wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 19:47:
Kxmode wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 18:41:

Everyone take a shot every time you see the F-word. Innocent

Sorry, I'm pretty passionate about devs not being treated like slaves, 40-50 hours a week like everyone else does should be perfectly doable.

Not gonna happen until devs unionize as I see it.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
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17.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Jan 17, 2020, 19:47
17.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Jan 17, 2020, 19:47
Jan 17, 2020, 19:47
 
Kxmode wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 18:41:

Everyone take a shot every time you see the F-word. Innocent

Sorry, I'm pretty passionate about devs not being treated like slaves, 40-50 hours a week like everyone else does should be perfectly doable.
16.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Jan 17, 2020, 18:41
Kxmode
 
16.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Jan 17, 2020, 18:41
Jan 17, 2020, 18:41
 Kxmode
 
The Magician wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 17:03:
Sepharo wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 14:58:
While nobody wants to crunch.... and crunch shouldn't be planned.... and it does show bad planning....

There's a difference between constant crunch and wrap-up crunch.

.... 5 months of crunch time, most likely. This means they fucked up, and fucked up big, and are going to continue fucking up for that 5 months, because if you have to do that, you're fucking up.

With the absolute garbage quality of most software that is turning out these days, this bullshit is inexcusable.

Developers are not an infinite resource, and they are *HUMAN*. You can't treat them like this.
Well, you can, but the results are .. well, we see the results in all the shit software we use, and the number of game devs that burn out of the industry completely.


Everyone take a shot every time you see the F-word. Innocent
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
Avatar 18786
15.
 
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch
Jan 17, 2020, 18:38
Kxmode
 
15.
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch Jan 17, 2020, 18:38
Jan 17, 2020, 18:38
 Kxmode
 
Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunching into Taco Bell's new Deluxe Taco XXL Cruchador*! I can't wait to crunch into one of those!

*it's not a real product
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
Avatar 18786
14.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Jan 17, 2020, 17:42
14.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Jan 17, 2020, 17:42
Jan 17, 2020, 17:42
 
saluk wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 17:38:
HAHAHA

We don't have enough time to finish the game. We have about 10 months of work left. So let's just delay 5 months, burn out our developers, and still end up releasing the game too early.

Exactly what I was trying to say, but I said with a lot more foul language, because I've been a gamedev. I might have to return to it, too, now that I'm unemployed. ugh.
13.
 
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch
Jan 17, 2020, 17:38
13.
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch Jan 17, 2020, 17:38
Jan 17, 2020, 17:38
 
HAHAHA

We don't have enough time to finish the game. We have about 10 months of work left. So let's just delay 5 months, burn out our developers, and still end up releasing the game too early.
12.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Jan 17, 2020, 17:03
12.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Jan 17, 2020, 17:03
Jan 17, 2020, 17:03
 
Sepharo wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 14:58:
While nobody wants to crunch.... and crunch shouldn't be planned.... and it does show bad planning....

There's a difference between constant crunch and wrap-up crunch.

.... 5 months of crunch time, most likely. This means they fucked up, and fucked up big, and are going to continue fucking up for that 5 months, because if you have to do that, you're fucking up.

With the absolute garbage quality of most software that is turning out these days, this bullshit is inexcusable.

Developers are not an infinite resource, and they are *HUMAN*. You can't treat them like this.
Well, you can, but the results are .. well, we see the results in all the shit software we use, and the number of game devs that burn out of the industry completely.

11.
 
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch
Jan 17, 2020, 15:31
Prez
 
11.
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch Jan 17, 2020, 15:31
Jan 17, 2020, 15:31
 Prez
 
Mandatory overtime is just a fact of life in a large percentage of blue collar jobs. I work on an airport for a major shipping carrier and they can and will mandatory you for dozens of hours of overtime a week if necessary. A snowstorm or ice storm for example means you get an extra 12 hour shift added to your work week at a minimum. You can easily work up to 17 hours a day for 7 days. It sucks but it just comes with the job. It's brutal and frankly dehumanizing but it pays well and thankfully workweeks that brutal are pretty rare. It has been worse at other jobs, but thankfully techs in my field are highly sought after so changing jobs, as much of a pain in the ass as that can be, is always an option. "Crunch" is a thing in more places than just in games development, but what makes it unique in the gaming industry is that, according to reports on Bioware and Epic, it is constant. It can go on months or even years at a time. The psychological toll this takes on a person cannot be overstated. I get that there will be periods of time where it is simply unavoidable, but to operate like that continuously is fucking criminal. If CD Projekt Red is putting their people in crunch mode from now until September that is just fucked up beyond description. No game, no matter how great, is worth the toll something like that will take on the people who have to suffer through it.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
Avatar 17185
10.
 
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch
Jan 17, 2020, 14:58
10.
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch Jan 17, 2020, 14:58
Jan 17, 2020, 14:58
 
While nobody wants to crunch.... and crunch shouldn't be planned.... and it does show bad planning....

There's a difference between constant crunch and wrap-up crunch.
Avatar 17249
9.
 
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch
Jan 17, 2020, 14:14
9.
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Won't Prevent Crunch Jan 17, 2020, 14:14
Jan 17, 2020, 14:14
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Jan 17, 2020, 14:03:
With rare exception, crunch is a sign of bad management. It shows a failure to properly forecast man hours.
As would the missed deadline.
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