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Out of the Blue

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44. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 13, 2020, 02:22 jdreyer
 
NKD wrote on Jan 12, 2020, 07:41:
jdreyer wrote on Jan 11, 2020, 09:46:
Such contracts should be illegal.

Why?
Because regardless of how the CEO performs, he'll be paid. There's no incentive to perform.
 
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43. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 12, 2020, 07:41 NKD
 
jdreyer wrote on Jan 11, 2020, 09:46:
Such contracts should be illegal.

Why?
 
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42. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 11, 2020, 13:39 Burrito of Peace
 
<Just quietly sits in his office, vaping away at his gub'mint cheese job>  
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41. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 11, 2020, 11:42 Mr. Tact
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 11, 2020, 11:28:
jdreyer wrote on Jan 11, 2020, 09:46:
Still, that anyone should get that much severance for getting fired is ludicrous. Such contracts should be illegal.
On what law would you base the illegality of said contracts.
Not to invoke the overused “slippery slope” metaphor but I could see that law easily being expanded to control their obscene salaries made before dismissal.
Controlling how much money is in a severance package is probably something that will never happen.
Just playing a shitty devils advocate. Devil
You are both correct. Which I'm not sure is a good or bad thing...
 



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40. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 11, 2020, 11:28 RedEye9
 
jdreyer wrote on Jan 11, 2020, 09:46:
Still, that anyone should get that much severance for getting fired is ludicrous. Such contracts should be illegal.
On what law would you base the illegality of said contracts.
Not to invoke the overused “slippery slope” metaphor but I could see that law easily being expanded to control their obscene salaries made before dismissal.
Controlling how much money is in a severance package is probably something that will never happen.
Just playing a shitty devils advocate. Devil
 
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39. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 11, 2020, 09:46 jdreyer
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2020, 08:45:
Mr. Tact wrote on Jan 11, 2020, 07:46:
Ahh, that's the corporate America I know...

Boeing gives CEO $62m severance, lays off 2,800 workers at the same time.

Misleading, they weren't Boeing employees. Totally believable, though

Still, that anyone should get that much severance for getting fired is ludicrous. Such contracts should be illegal.
 
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38. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 11, 2020, 08:45 Beamer
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Jan 11, 2020, 07:46:
Ahh, that's the corporate America I know...

Boeing gives CEO $62m severance, lays off 2,800 workers at the same time.

Misleading, they weren't Boeing employees. Totally believable, though
 



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37. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 11, 2020, 07:46 Mr. Tact
 
Ahh, that's the corporate America I know...

Boeing gives CEO $62m severance, lays off 2,800 workers at the same time.
 



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36. Re: Out of the Blue - Nicotine Addicts Jan 11, 2020, 06:42 Jonjonz
 
Nicotine Addicts:

Three reasons to not hire them and shun them in general:

* They usually are completely inconsiderate of others and willingly expose them to heavy concentrations of cancer causing second hand smoke.
* They don't care if they run up everyones health care costs when they get cancer.
* Their behavior shows poor judgment and a tendency to ignore facts.

They should reap what they have sown.
 
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35. Re: Is it fair to refuse to hire people who use Nicotine? Jan 10, 2020, 23:21 jdreyer
 
Cutter wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 21:42:
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 18:38:
Don't get me wrong, unions can be corrupt just like any organization run by humans can be corrupt. I'm also glad you aren't forced to join the union; that's not what I think unions should be. At the same time, I'm glad you recognize you are enjoying some of the benefits without paying into the union. At that point it becomes a personal decision whether or not to contribute financially to the union; I personally feel it should swing a little more towards contributing, but maybe that's just me.

Yeah, but unions will never disappear now. Government, Teamsters, trades, etc. are going nowhere. Do the benefits really outweigh the costs to everyone else? Imagine if everyone was unionized. Do we really need to be paying ditch diggers $30 an hour? That just leads to never ending inflation. There are plenty of union jobs out there that should be minimum wage. We can't all be neurosurgeons.
Unions could pretty easily disappear. The trend has been down for decades.

The problem isn't that we would be paying ditch diggers $30 / hour. The problem is that the execs pay less than a living wage to ditch diggers, forcing government programs to pick up the slack (yay, more taxes!) while giving themselves $10M salaries.
 
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34. Re: Is it fair to refuse to hire people who use Nicotine? Jan 10, 2020, 21:42 Cutter
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 18:38:
Don't get me wrong, unions can be corrupt just like any organization run by humans can be corrupt. I'm also glad you aren't forced to join the union; that's not what I think unions should be. At the same time, I'm glad you recognize you are enjoying some of the benefits without paying into the union. At that point it becomes a personal decision whether or not to contribute financially to the union; I personally feel it should swing a little more towards contributing, but maybe that's just me.

Yeah, but unions will never disappear now. Government, Teamsters, trades, etc. are going nowhere. Do the benefits really outweigh the costs to everyone else? Imagine if everyone was unionized. Do we really need to be paying ditch diggers $30 an hour? That just leads to never ending inflation. There are plenty of union jobs out there that should be minimum wage. We can't all be neurosurgeons.
 
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33. Re: Is it fair to refuse to hire people who use Nicotine? Jan 10, 2020, 21:40 RedEye9
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 10:32:
All that said, it'd be nice if each of these states that allow not hiring nicotine addicts ALSO had free programs that helped people quit their addiction...
What’s gonna fund that “free” program? The tax from pot sales.
 
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32. Re: Is it fair to refuse to hire people who use Nicotine? Jan 10, 2020, 21:36 Cutter
 
WarPig wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 20:19:
As I've said in other threads, I feel unions are a necessary evil, until humans stop being complete shit to one another, which won't happen before the heat death of the universe, it seems.

A long time ago I was a union pipefitter and could definitely see the good and bad in the union. For me the worst part was how so many bad workers could hide behind union laws and basically be "un-fireable". This gave all of us a bad name and it really pissed me off. And some things were just so ridiculous - for instance, if there was a 2x4 laying in my way and I moved it a couple feet to get my work done, I would have to be damn careful that someone from the laborers union didn't see me or I could get written up for doing "their" work (which probably could have meant waiting for an hour... to get a 5lb. piece of wood moved). On the other hand, we all went through the same quality schooling, and for the most part, we all knew what we were doing. So there's that.

Basically it's just like you said, we'll still probably need unions "until humans stop being complete shit to one another, which won't happen before the heat death of the universe". Which in this case means that whoever gets the upper hand will almost always take things too far until they're stopped.

Exactly. I've belonged to a few unions because I had no choice and my experience was always negative. My pops was a big union guy - he was a carpenter. I still remember when I worked with him for the summers when I was 16 and 17 with my best friend. We walked into the union office and my dad says, 'Put them on as 2nd year apprentices.' Boom. Done. Meanwhile there's a 2 year waiting list for guys who are legitimately trying to be carpenters. That left a bad taste in my mouth regardless I was making way more money than I could have on my own.

Belonged to two other unions as well and it's exactly as you said. I can't count the times I dealt with so many pricks doing the bare minimum that would have been fired in a heartbeat without a union, and deservedly so. Yeah there's a lot of bad management, but there's a lot of bad union too. Even that aside I hated all that seniority bullshit. Hey, if we're all equals we should all be entitled to share the good and bad shifts like everyone else, right? And times where I had issues that I'd bring up to the shop steward they'd never actually do anything about it.

And, at least here, they're an albatross around the taxpayers neck as far as government unions go. Overpaid, under-worked, with platinum pensions that no one sees in the private sector. If I had worked for government out of high school I'd be retired by now with a close to a six figure pension.

 
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31. Re: Is It Fair To Refuse To Hire People Who Use Nicotine? Jan 10, 2020, 21:28 Mr. Tact
 
Cutter wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 12:27:
Prohibition doesn't work and everyone knows that. Besides where does it stop? It's not like booze or sugar or junk food is any healthier yet there's way more of that going on than smoking. People engage in varying degrees of risky behavior every day because there's no getting around risk unless you're a vergan hermit that lives in a cave. You can't stop people from doing dumb shit.
So, I take it you didn't make it all the way to my third sentence?
 



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30. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 10, 2020, 21:23 Cutter
 
Blue wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 16:53:
Cutter wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 14:56:
I've never bought into that nicotine is more addictive than smack or coke BS. Knowing people that were heroin addicts and did a lot of coke I'd say money and the difficulty of acquiring those things is the only reason that there are more smokers than drug addicts. Coke can be a problem for addictive personality types and heroin is just plain fucking evil but smoking is just dumb.

Don Imus was a terrible drug addict back when we were both at VH-1. Years later after he cleaned up I once heard him say on the radio that cigarettes were far harder for him to give up than coke or alcohol.

As someone who's done a metric shit ton of drugs back in the day I'd agree with that sorta kinda but for different reasons. Most people who drink or do drugs regularly are smokers by and large anyway. I think a lot more of it is habit than anything else. The first few years after I quit I never had too much of a problem with it except when I was drinking. Soon as a I had a beer in hand I'd just start jonesing for a smoke. When you smoke, you smoke all the time. It's not like you're doing drugs or drinking on a constant basis even if you are an addict or a lush. But as far as the addictive properties of nicotine go I don't think it's the bad.

 
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29. Re: Is it fair to refuse to hire people who use Nicotine? Jan 10, 2020, 20:19 WarPig
 
As I've said in other threads, I feel unions are a necessary evil, until humans stop being complete shit to one another, which won't happen before the heat death of the universe, it seems.

A long time ago I was a union pipefitter and could definitely see the good and bad in the union. For me the worst part was how so many bad workers could hide behind union laws and basically be "un-fireable". This gave all of us a bad name and it really pissed me off. And some things were just so ridiculous - for instance, if there was a 2x4 laying in my way and I moved it a couple feet to get my work done, I would have to be damn careful that someone from the laborers union didn't see me or I could get written up for doing "their" work (which probably could have meant waiting for an hour... to get a 5lb. piece of wood moved). On the other hand, we all went through the same quality schooling, and for the most part, we all knew what we were doing. So there's that.

Basically it's just like you said, we'll still probably need unions "until humans stop being complete shit to one another, which won't happen before the heat death of the universe". Which in this case means that whoever gets the upper hand will almost always take things too far until they're stopped.
 
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28. Re: Is it fair to refuse to hire people who use Nicotine? Jan 10, 2020, 18:38 MoreLuckThanSkill
 
Prez wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 16:10:
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 15:39:

"Right to Work" laws in the US basically remove some discrimination protections that used to exist, people in those states can be fired at any time without reason, or refused hiring without reason given. This particular instance (smoking discrimination) is just another example of some people shooting themselves in the foot and then realizing their mistake afterwards...


I currently live in a right to work state and I like not being forced to join a union to get a job as an electrical worker. Joining the IBEW is next to impossible unless you know someone - or a couple of someones - and it's run like an exclusive good ole boy club. I'm not saying that the IBEW is bad - many of my fellow electrical workers are proud members and love the union but I for one don't like the way the union does things, so I choose not to join. I have worked in manufacturing (yes manufacturing jobs still exist in the US) for many years and have never felt compelled to join any of the labor unions in those jobs either. And in my state I don't have to. But under the right to work laws in my state the union protections still extend to the workers who choose not to join, so it's not like you are really sacrificing anything.

Don't get me wrong, unions can be corrupt just like any organization run by humans can be corrupt. I'm also glad you aren't forced to join the union; that's not what I think unions should be. At the same time, I'm glad you recognize you are enjoying some of the benefits without paying into the union. At that point it becomes a personal decision whether or not to contribute financially to the union; I personally feel it should swing a little more towards contributing, but maybe that's just me.

As I've said in other threads, I feel unions are a necessary evil, until humans stop being complete shit to one another, which won't happen before the heat death of the universe, it seems.

 
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27. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 10, 2020, 17:23 RedEye9
 
Clowns supervised by monkeys. I find it difficult to believe that people say things on company email and think it is not an official document.
House Transportation Committee Chairman Peter DeFazio called newly released documents "incredibly damning," adding that "they paint a deeply disturbing picture of the lengths Boeing was apparently willing to go to in order to evade scrutiny from regulators, flight crews, and the flying public, even as its own employees were sounding alarms internally."
The person I know who is in the industry says he’d rather not fly. Yes I know it’s a Statistical point of 1 and flying is still safer than flying out of Iran, but you get my point.
 
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26. Re: Out of the Blue Jan 10, 2020, 16:53  Blue 
 
Cutter wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 14:56:
I've never bought into that nicotine is more addictive than smack or coke BS. Knowing people that were heroin addicts and did a lot of coke I'd say money and the difficulty of acquiring those things is the only reason that there are more smokers than drug addicts. Coke can be a problem for addictive personality types and heroin is just plain fucking evil but smoking is just dumb.

Don Imus was a terrible drug addict back when we were both at VH-1. Years later after he cleaned up I once heard him say on the radio that cigarettes were far harder for him to give up than coke or alcohol.
 
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25. Re: Is it fair to refuse to hire people who use Nicotine? Jan 10, 2020, 16:10 Prez
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Jan 10, 2020, 15:39:

"Right to Work" laws in the US basically remove some discrimination protections that used to exist, people in those states can be fired at any time without reason, or refused hiring without reason given. This particular instance (smoking discrimination) is just another example of some people shooting themselves in the foot and then realizing their mistake afterwards...


I currently live in a right to work state and I like not being forced to join a union to get a job as an electrical worker. Joining the IBEW is next to impossible unless you know someone - or a couple of someones - and it's run like an exclusive good ole boy club. I'm not saying that the IBEW is bad - many of my fellow electrical workers are proud members and love the union but I for one don't like the way the union does things, so I choose not to join. I have worked in manufacturing (yes manufacturing jobs still exist in the US) for many years and have never felt compelled to join any of the labor unions in those jobs either. And in my state I don't have to. But under the right to work laws in my state the union protections still extend to the workers who choose not to join, so it's not like you are really sacrificing anything.
 
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