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French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales

This French article has word that a French court has ruled that users should be permitted to resell games and other media purchased through Steam (thanks Primalchrome). IGN has a reaction from Valve saying they will appeal the ruling. There is an article about the ruling on MSPoweruser that outlines it in English so we don't have to resort to Google Translate. Here's word:

“In a judgement rendered on September 17th by the Paris District Court… The Association for the Defence of Consumer Rights managed to obtain the cancellation of a number of clauses that Valve imposed on Steam,” the website says.

The biggest cancellation is that of Valve’s licensing of Steam games. Although you pay full price for titles on Steam, you do not own games you buy on Steam. This ruling changes that: by allowing you to sell your Steam games that you’ve purchased, gamers now have some form of control over their titles. The ruling doesn’t just apply to games. Games, movies, trading cards and more are all included.

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46 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
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46. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 21, 2019, 04:17 eRe4s3r
 
Muscular Beaver wrote on Sep 20, 2019, 20:39:
eRe4s3r wrote on Sep 20, 2019, 11:29:
The far more interesting thing about this, which you non Europeans obviously missed. Is that this court can not actually legally decide about consumer rights affecting an EU wide store. Like it literally legally can not. Whatever it decides is irrelevant as Steam can not do what the court asks even if it wanted. There can be NO difference between French and German or Italian customers on Steam. That means the court decision is invalid until a higher EU court decides on it. So I am assuming the translation is wrong and the court did a preliminary decision and uplifted it to an EU court. Anything else would make zero sense, especially as the new copyright law is in normalization phase, meaning a court decision like this could become entirely irrelevant in 2 years.

So yeah.

There already is a difference. As a German, I cant buy uncensored games there, that have been censored by German officials. I cant buy an indexed game there either. I also have to state truthfully where I live (proxies will get you banned) when I buy a game.

You can now. That law has been changed, in 2 years from now that will seem like an alien concept entirely.
 
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45. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 20:39 Muscular Beaver
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Sep 20, 2019, 11:29:
The far more interesting thing about this, which you non Europeans obviously missed. Is that this court can not actually legally decide about consumer rights affecting an EU wide store. Like it literally legally can not. Whatever it decides is irrelevant as Steam can not do what the court asks even if it wanted. There can be NO difference between French and German or Italian customers on Steam. That means the court decision is invalid until a higher EU court decides on it. So I am assuming the translation is wrong and the court did a preliminary decision and uplifted it to an EU court. Anything else would make zero sense, especially as the new copyright law is in normalization phase, meaning a court decision like this could become entirely irrelevant in 2 years.

So yeah.

There already is a difference. As a German, I cant buy uncensored games there, that have been censored by German officials. I cant buy an indexed game there either. I also have to state truthfully where I live (proxies will get you banned) when I buy a game.
 
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About to give up on waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
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44. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 19:02 Beamer
 
Bodolza wrote on Sep 20, 2019, 13:25:
Anyone predicting doom and gloom should remember that this is the way the games industry worked for 20+ years before Steam and the other digital stores started to take over. The music and video industries for much, much longer. The companies hated it then, too, but they still did just fine.

There's a big difference, even ignoring how much more expensive games were then, accounting for inflation.

A used game used to be a mediocre experience. The box was damages. The instructions were damaged, inked on, or missing. The disks may not work. The CD may be scratched and not reliably work. And they could only be sold where they were located. And some people were collectors and wanted the product on the shelf.

With digital, this all changes. The product is 100% identical to new. There's no shelf to show it off. It's guaranteed to work. And someone in Seattle can sell to someone in Florida instantly.

All the old barriers die, so there's absolutely no advantage to buying new. At all. Zero.
 
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http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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43. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 17:34 jdreyer
 
necrosis wrote on Sep 20, 2019, 09:25:
HorrorScope wrote on Sep 19, 2019, 21:41:
Be careful what you wish for here, laws like this have a way of turning out bad. For example this could rush in Game Streaming, since the alternative is this law that probably breaks business plans. Laws with good intentions have this happen to them. I don't feel the deal we have currently has been a bad one.

This. It is happening already in a different field.
Fast food register biscuits are demanding $15/hour for pushing buttons. What do the fast food places do? Get rid of their jobs with touch screen boards where the customer can push the buttons. Larger up front cost but long term probably a ton cheaper.

Or like supermarkets and home depos with self checkout. One person 'running' 4-6 lanes.

We already have 'games as services' taking off and its destroying gaming. This will just accelerate it.

Automating register jobs was happening well before the Fight for Fifteen. Would have happened anyway. Same with GaaS.
 
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The land in Minecraft is flat, Minecraft simulates the Earth, ergo the Earth is flat.
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42. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 17:10 jdreyer
 
BIGtrouble77 wrote on Sep 20, 2019, 09:00:
I wonder how acquiring keys (humble bundle and not so legit g2a) would affect a system like this... I can imagine people will rush to sites like G2A, buy cheap sketchy keys and then try to resell on the used game marketplace. Seems ripe for fraud.

Avoiding fraud on the gray market is a good point.
 
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The land in Minecraft is flat, Minecraft simulates the Earth, ergo the Earth is flat.
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41. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 13:25 Bodolza
 
Anyone predicting doom and gloom should remember that this is the way the games industry worked for 20+ years before Steam and the other digital stores started to take over. The music and video industries for much, much longer. The companies hated it then, too, but they still did just fine.  
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40. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 11:29 eRe4s3r
 
The far more interesting thing about this, which you non Europeans obviously missed. Is that this court can not actually legally decide about consumer rights affecting an EU wide store. Like it literally legally can not. Whatever it decides is irrelevant as Steam can not do what the court asks even if it wanted. There can be NO difference between French and German or Italian customers on Steam. That means the court decision is invalid until a higher EU court decides on it. So I am assuming the translation is wrong and the court did a preliminary decision and uplifted it to an EU court. Anything else would make zero sense, especially as the new copyright law is in normalization phase, meaning a court decision like this could become entirely irrelevant in 2 years.

So yeah.

 
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39. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 11:03 Jagacademy
 
For years I would buy games at release, install them, then throw them on Ebay for $5 less than I paid.  
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38. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 11:01 Steele Johnson
 
Simon Says wrote on Sep 20, 2019, 04:40:
You buy something, you own it, if you own it, you can resell, nothing controversial here.

I'm surprised (or maybe not) that steam users think they own the games they purchase. Read the EULA, it clearly states that Valve owns all software that you've downloaded. You are purchasing games as a subscriber (like Netflix, but rather than a monthly fee, you pay per game), not like you're walking into a store like GameStop and getting a boxed copy.

So if Valve goes out of business, you lose all your games. You guys didn't know this? lol
 
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37. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 10:59 HorrorScope
 
Here's a law that was thought to be good for the people but in the end was a bad thing, personally I was caught up in this, the company said they couldn't abide by that and did away with their traditional pension. So pension protection act gave companies the ability to change or get rid of their pension plans and use it as the reason why.

“The Pension Protection Act is one of the greatest failures of retirement legislation of all times,” says Joshua Gotbaum

http://tinyurl.com/yyqr2wpk
 
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36. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 10:47 GinRummy
 
I'd think it would be pretty easy to let users buy and sell their unwanted games on the Steam Market, just like achievement cards and stuff. I can see it now, where it will say something like "Tomb Raider 6, recently sold for 68 cents in the Market, average asking price is 99 cents."  
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35. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 10:31 Drayth
 
Kxmode wrote on Sep 19, 2019, 21:35:
If they go that path, I'll start buying from GOG.

START buying from GOG??

What do you think would happen if Steam (or anyone but GOG) went out of business? They are under no obligation to provide you full ownership of the games you've been running through their store front.

If anything them trying would result in the publishers going, "Hey.. we never said you could provide them with DRM-free copies of our games. Blah blah blah piracy!".
 
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34. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 10:22 LurkerLito
 
I say the ruling if fine, but just remember, that there is NO stipulation that it has to be easy to use or not be riddled with extra processing fees. If I were valve or any other digital distributor, I'd just say, yes you have the ability to re-sell your games but the processing fee is 85% of the price you set that will be split between the devs and the digital platforms. You won't find a whole lot of takers when people see oh I am selling my old game for $10 and getting back $1.50 if it even sells. Since it's digital, steam can basically say they don't have to pay you till someone buys your particular copy that's put into a queue of other potential sellers. Add in all the other safe guards, like requiring a linked bank account to even be able to even enable reselling and you can basically make it so that almost no one uses the resale feature.  
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33. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 09:53 Beamer
 
Dontbother wrote on Sep 20, 2019, 09:41:
You people don't deserve to have any rights, couse you will exchange them for convenience, at the first opportunity. Wall2

It isn't as if we wouldn't still be paying for these games. Fewer copies would be sold. Either budgets would go down, or prices/microtransactions would go up.
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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32. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 09:41 Dontbother
 
You people don't deserve to have any rights, couse you will exchange them for convenience, at the first opportunity. Wall2  
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31. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 09:31 Beamer
 
necrosis wrote on Sep 20, 2019, 09:25:
HorrorScope wrote on Sep 19, 2019, 21:41:
Be careful what you wish for here, laws like this have a way of turning out bad. For example this could rush in Game Streaming, since the alternative is this law that probably breaks business plans. Laws with good intentions have this happen to them. I don't feel the deal we have currently has been a bad one.

This. It is happening already in a different field.
Fast food register biscuits are demanding $15/hour for pushing buttons. What do the fast food places do? Get rid of their jobs with touch screen boards where the customer can push the buttons. Larger up front cost but long term probably a ton cheaper.

Or like supermarkets and home depos with self checkout. One person 'running' 4-6 lanes.

We already have 'games as services' taking off and its destroying gaming. This will just accelerate it.


Fast food automated registers have been a thing for a while. You didn't mention increased minimum wage, but that's frequently attributed to it. And it's wrong, because this has been becoming a trend longer than turning minimum wage into a living wage has been a political trend.

The reality is that every store that's tried this has found that:

a) It's cheaper to operate

b) Consumers enjoy it more. It lets them see everything, and gets rid of anxiety many apparently have for ordering when in a line

c) It is an excellent upsell device. People see bright images of additional products and buy more. Much more. At checkout, you get an offer for $0.25 off dessert, and people buy it. Average Orders shot through the roof, which is the major reason for doing it

Happier customers, spending more, on something cheaper to deliver.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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30. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 09:25 necrosis
 
HorrorScope wrote on Sep 19, 2019, 21:41:
Be careful what you wish for here, laws like this have a way of turning out bad. For example this could rush in Game Streaming, since the alternative is this law that probably breaks business plans. Laws with good intentions have this happen to them. I don't feel the deal we have currently has been a bad one.

This. It is happening already in a different field.
Fast food register biscuits are demanding $15/hour for pushing buttons. What do the fast food places do? Get rid of their jobs with touch screen boards where the customer can push the buttons. Larger up front cost but long term probably a ton cheaper.

Or like supermarkets and home depos with self checkout. One person 'running' 4-6 lanes.

We already have 'games as services' taking off and its destroying gaming. This will just accelerate it.
 
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29. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 09:00 BIGtrouble77
 
I wonder how acquiring keys (humble bundle and not so legit g2a) would affect a system like this... I can imagine people will rush to sites like G2A, buy cheap sketchy keys and then try to resell on the used game marketplace. Seems ripe for fraud.  
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28. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 07:17 Numinar
 
HoSpanky wrote on Sep 20, 2019, 03:10:
The HUGE difference between a digital item and a physical one is that you can resell a physical item without involving the store that sold it to you. You can’t do that with digital. This court is saying companies like Steam have to not only allow people to resell their digital goods, but that they have to assist people in doing so. It’d be like saying a car dealership had to help you resell your car, which magically doesn’t degrade over time, that you bought from them 10 years prior. Not only that, but the dealership has to build a functional marketplace on their own dime to assist people with the sale.

“But DRM could be removed, gog works!”. It works, but not remotely enough to make back development costs and make a worthwhile profit. Games with multiplayer components have servers to maintain. People buying games out of the goodness of their hearts don’t offset the massive number of people who would download a game for free. Back to the car analogy...no DRM means that magical car could be copied infinitely and sold/given away as much as anyone wanted. Oh, and the original manufacturer would have to provide gas (multiplayer servers) for said car, for anyone who got a free one or bought it from the reseller.

It’s gonna kill our ability to run games from our machines. Others on this thread are right; it’s going to mean the end of running games on our own hardware.

But steam already has the infrastructure for it. The steam cards and tradeable items give a cut to steam and developer don't they? Maybe even vat when necessary?

Used games could be the same. You set a price and valve and the current rights holder gets a cut. Your license to the game dosn't sell unless it's the cheapest when a buyer gets it. Free market!

If they are smart they will fucking EB this shit. I reckon it will make sales moot. Good games will sell and rarely get resold, overrated games will saturate market but get purchases they would never have got unless on sale anyway.

It will probably all go to hell though, I don't want to think about my game service subscriptions as it is if thats what everyone who isn't already doing it decides to do. Probably at $40 a month at least, but still with way better value than any game I'd buy with that money and cheaper than my phone but still, eventually people will have had enough and you better fucking hope your susbcription library is quality to compete. Again, could be amazing could be bad.

I miss my 90's games, but adjusting for inflation we have never gotten shit cheaper. Things can get better!
 
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27. Re: French Court Says Steam Should Allow Game Resales Sep 20, 2019, 06:30 Jonjonz
 
Wow this one flew under the radar of the big boys.

Don't fret it won't take them long to realize the ruling pretty much shots to hell their usual argument to defend loot box gambling, which is the stuff has no real world value.

I expect them to lawyer up and get more generous handing out Francs anytime now.
 
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"Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss." - The Who.
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