Bhruic wrote on Sep 1, 2019, 20:03:
This is a really sad situation. It's the result of what I would consider a true Kobayashi Maru - a true no-win scenario. It's easy to jump to knee-jerk reactions that seem like they will solve the problem. Cutter for example, suggests that we don't publish the names of accused unless they've been found guilty in a court of law. On the surface, maybe that makes sense. But you then have to balance it with the fact that one accusation often gives strength and comfort to other people who have been abused, and allows them to come forward and share their story. Not being allowed to accuse someone publicly makes it much harder for police to do their jobs and track down evidence. So the simple solution becomes much more complex. How do you balance someone's right to not be falsely accused against the right to find more victims?

In the same vein, rape allegations are an almost impossible no-win scenario. In the vast majority of cases, there is no evidence that can determine if sex was consensual or forced. Leaving things to the courts means that the majority of rapists go unpunished. As someone who believes in justice, and wants the guilty to be held accountable, that's something I find really bothering. But at the same time, I know for a fact that if we simply accept all rape claims as true, there will be people who weaponize that against people they don't like. That is equally unacceptable. But there really are no better solutions. So we end up stuck in this grey area where most people don't bother going to the police, because it's ineffective, but those people who talk about their alleged rapist publicly get attacked for possibly making the whole thing up.

At the end of the day, I'm just sad that someone lost a brother, or a friend, or whoever he was to the people in his life. He may or may not have been an abuser, but he was still a person, and shouldn't have felt like this was his only option.

Don't you bring your sound logic and reasoning to this knee jerk reaction thread!

NKD wrote on Sep 3, 2019, 16:31:
This guys alleged behavior was not illegal as far as I can tell, though specifics are a little hard to come by. He was essentially accused of being a creep, and having abusive (not physically) relationships. The authorities can't do anything about stuff that isn't illegal. Society has to handle that itself.

It's also worth noting that his sister claimed he was abused and suffered from some personality disorders as well. Unfortunately with his death we don't know whether this is fact or fiction. In terms of "society handling" this situation, I don't think death is the desirable outcome from a reasonable society so perhaps people should really examine what we want to happen in these scenarios.

JohnnyRotten wrote on Sep 3, 2019, 20:58:

Razumen wrote on Sep 3, 2019, 08:15:
And no, I never said it should be kept secret, why must things always be in extremes for you?

To set up the next straw man for the person who is "looking at this literally without bias". That statement alone should be your clue to understanding a basic fact when dealing with Beamer:

You're not having a conversation, you're feeding a troll. Stop.

That was a Cutter idea. It seemed like Razumen was backing him up on that, but I suppose he's not making a proposal that it should be law or "not permitted", but rather that people just *shouldn't* do it. I guess I agree with that insofar that people who don't have any firsthand knowledge of the situation probably aren't qualified to make any judgments on it or those involved, but that wouldn't include the accuser in my view.

Razumen wrote on Sep 3, 2019, 08:15:
And no, I never said it should be kept secret, why must things always be in extremes for you?

To set up the next straw man for the person who is "looking at this literally without bias". That statement alone should be your clue to understanding a basic fact when dealing with Beamer:

You're not having a conversation, you're feeding a troll. Stop.

nin wrote on Sep 1, 2019, 12:56:
I just want to say that Night In The Woods was a fantastic game that dealt with depression and mistakes, and trying to live with yourself afterwards. (Which, as I now type that, seems rather ironic, given the current news.) It very much spoke to me personally, as someone who's been depressed a really long time, and sometimes feels like the mistakes in life outnumber the positive events.

There is a good reason memories fade. That said, some people's memories don't fade as well as others. While I have never been suicidal I have certainly been seriously depressed multiple times in my life and I would echo those here who urge anyone who is suffering to reach out and ask for help.

NKD wrote on Sep 3, 2019, 16:31:

Dmitri_M wrote on Sep 3, 2019, 09:20:
I have not being following this closely. Was there any attempt by the accusers to go to the authorities? What was the reason for going public? The authorities didn't react to the accusations?

This guys alleged behavior was not illegal as far as I can tell, though specifics are a little hard to come by. He was essentially accused of being a creep, and having abusive (not physically) relationships. The authorities can't do anything about stuff that isn't illegal. Society has to handle that itself.

Well we shouldn't be permitted to say anything bad about anyone on the internet without permission from a judge first.

Dmitri_M wrote on Sep 3, 2019, 09:20:
I have not being following this closely. Was there any attempt by the accusers to go to the authorities? What was the reason for going public? The authorities didn't react to the accusations?

This guys alleged behavior was not illegal as far as I can tell, though specifics are a little hard to come by. He was essentially accused of being a creep, and having abusive (not physically) relationships. The authorities can't do anything about stuff that isn't illegal. Society has to handle that itself.

The Half Elf wrote on Sep 1, 2019, 19:34:

Kxmode wrote on Sep 1, 2019, 19:27:

NotOneOfUs wrote on Sep 1, 2019, 19:02:
* REMOVED *
This comment was deleted on Sep 1, 2019, 19:20.

First one! Grats NotOneOfUs in achieving the coveted
* REMOVED * AWARD.

Would you all knock it the fuck off. People are in pain, and suffering. And I personally owe an apology about my comments regarding the situation with Zoe.

Argue about stupid things tomorrow. Today let it go.

It was a snide comment on being the first in the thread to get their comments removed on an other clean thread. It was also not a positive congratulatory.

As far as we know no one went to the authorities. People are inferring more based on their personal biases and opinions but that's probably all we'll ever know in terms of actual facts. Guy is dead and there will be no real closure on this.

I have not being following this closely. Was there any attempt by the accusers to go to the authorities? What was the reason for going public? The authorities didn't react to the accusations?

Beamer wrote on Sep 3, 2019, 07:50:

Razumen wrote on Sep 3, 2019, 00:08:

NKD wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:39:

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:04:

Again, who said he's innocent?

People being against unchecked mob justice is not the same as saying he's innocent.

Several people attacking Zoe Quinn seem to think that because she is involved, the allegations are false. A couple examples. I'm sure there are more if you really want to dig into this thread and the previous one. If it was just Zoe Quinn, I wouldn't believe a word of the allegations either. But with all the other accusers, no claim of innocence from himself, and his sister basically admitting the was a creep, focusing on Zoe Quinn is absolutely a transparent way to dismiss the accusations.

Nidian wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 00:55:
That's the problem... she has proven herself, based upon her own actions & past deeds, to be nothing more than a manipulative liar. And like the ending to the boy who cried wolf... "Nobody believes a liar...even when he is telling the truth!"

Icewind wrote on Sep 1, 2019, 23:47:
Even better, Zoe stole the money, spent it all on a vacation, did zero work on the game, and Chuck now vehemently denies he was ever a part of the game and claims he never accepted anything.

She's a liar, a cheat, a manipulator, and a talent-less troll that blackmails others for money. That's her job.

Anyone defending her is clueless.

To be fair, they're not really arguing that he is for sure innocent, just that Zoe isn't really the paragon of trustworthiness. The character of the accuser is a completely relevant factor to take into account when judging the likelihood that the alleged events actually took place.

Of course we have multiple other sources that (vaguely) confirm the allegations, so it's extremely likely that they are mostly true. But given Zoe's past actions, it is reasonable to be doubtful of the full extent of her claims in particular.

They don't vaguely confirm her allegations, they were making similar accusations before she made hers. They're entirely separate allegations. Even if Zoe Quinn wasn't involved, which is preferable to anyone, you have multiple allegations of this.

And literally not one person defending him that knows him. Yet plenty defending him here that didn't, while going on the offense on his attackers (if you want to know why most women don't come forward, go read a transcript of a rape trial some time, and see how relevant the character of the accuser becomes. A woman can go through her entire sexual history while on the witness stand, in front of dozens of people and likely her immediate family, or she can just try to move on without making an accusation.)

Maybe none are saying he's 100% innocent, but there are certainly many here implying they believe he is, or innocent enough that this never should have been said on twitter.

Again, if it's something other women should know about, and something that's a pattern of behavior, why should it be kept in secret?

Yes, they vaguely confirm his overall character, if not specific actions, and I say vaguely because they don't go into specific details, which is very important.

If they're entirely separate allegations, then Zoe's allegations are hers alone, and have to stand on her own merits. Considering her character and lack of evidence, then I'd say they're pretty shaky, regardless of what others say. By all accounts, she sounds like her past actions have deservedly opened her up to such criticism.

"Again, if it's something other women should know about, and something that's a pattern of behavior, why should it be kept in secret?"

Here's a better question: why should it be broadcast to anyone and everyone on the planet, to people that the accused will never ever meet, or even talk to in their lifetime? ESPECIALLY in cases where everything being alleged is on hearsay alone? This is not necessary to keep people safe.

And no, I never said it should be kept secret, why must things always be in extremes for you?

Razumen wrote on Sep 3, 2019, 00:08:

NKD wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:39:

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:04:

Again, who said he's innocent?

People being against unchecked mob justice is not the same as saying he's innocent.

Several people attacking Zoe Quinn seem to think that because she is involved, the allegations are false. A couple examples. I'm sure there are more if you really want to dig into this thread and the previous one. If it was just Zoe Quinn, I wouldn't believe a word of the allegations either. But with all the other accusers, no claim of innocence from himself, and his sister basically admitting the was a creep, focusing on Zoe Quinn is absolutely a transparent way to dismiss the accusations.

Nidian wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 00:55:
That's the problem... she has proven herself, based upon her own actions & past deeds, to be nothing more than a manipulative liar. And like the ending to the boy who cried wolf... "Nobody believes a liar...even when he is telling the truth!"

Icewind wrote on Sep 1, 2019, 23:47:
Even better, Zoe stole the money, spent it all on a vacation, did zero work on the game, and Chuck now vehemently denies he was ever a part of the game and claims he never accepted anything.

She's a liar, a cheat, a manipulator, and a talent-less troll that blackmails others for money. That's her job.

Anyone defending her is clueless.

To be fair, they're not really arguing that he is for sure innocent, just that Zoe isn't really the paragon of trustworthiness. The character of the accuser is a completely relevant factor to take into account when judging the likelihood that the alleged events actually took place.

Of course we have multiple other sources that (vaguely) confirm the allegations, so it's extremely likely that they are mostly true. But given Zoe's past actions, it is reasonable to be doubtful of the full extent of her claims in particular.

They don't vaguely confirm her allegations, they were making similar accusations before she made hers. They're entirely separate allegations. Even if Zoe Quinn wasn't involved, which is preferable to anyone, you have multiple allegations of this.

And literally not one person defending him that knows him. Yet plenty defending him here that didn't, while going on the offense on his attackers (if you want to know why most women don't come forward, go read a transcript of a rape trial some time, and see how relevant the character of the accuser becomes. A woman can go through her entire sexual history while on the witness stand, in front of dozens of people and likely her immediate family, or she can just try to move on without making an accusation.)

Maybe none are saying he's 100% innocent, but there are certainly many here implying they believe he is, or innocent enough that this never should have been said on twitter.

Again, if it's something other women should know about, and something that's a pattern of behavior, why should it be kept in secret?

NKD wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:39:

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:04:

Again, who said he's innocent?

People being against unchecked mob justice is not the same as saying he's innocent.

Several people attacking Zoe Quinn seem to think that because she is involved, the allegations are false. A couple examples. I'm sure there are more if you really want to dig into this thread and the previous one. If it was just Zoe Quinn, I wouldn't believe a word of the allegations either. But with all the other accusers, no claim of innocence from himself, and his sister basically admitting the was a creep, focusing on Zoe Quinn is absolutely a transparent way to dismiss the accusations.

Nidian wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 00:55:
That's the problem... she has proven herself, based upon her own actions & past deeds, to be nothing more than a manipulative liar. And like the ending to the boy who cried wolf... "Nobody believes a liar...even when he is telling the truth!"

Icewind wrote on Sep 1, 2019, 23:47:
Even better, Zoe stole the money, spent it all on a vacation, did zero work on the game, and Chuck now vehemently denies he was ever a part of the game and claims he never accepted anything.

She's a liar, a cheat, a manipulator, and a talent-less troll that blackmails others for money. That's her job.

Anyone defending her is clueless.

To be fair, they're not really arguing that he is for sure innocent, just that Zoe isn't really the paragon of trustworthiness. The character of the accuser is a completely relevant factor to take into account when judging the likelihood that the alleged events actually took place.

Of course we have multiple other sources that (vaguely) confirm the allegations, so it's extremely likely that they are mostly true. But given Zoe's past actions, it is reasonable to be doubtful of the full extent of her claims in particular.

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:52:

ventry wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:37:

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:04:

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 20:58:

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 20:57:

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 18:11:
And a bunch of internet guys afraid of society, who never met this guy, saying he is innocent.

I've read through this entire bloody chain and I don't think I read any one person actually say he's %100 innocent.

There are literally multiple accusations, and not a single person has said they're wrong. In which case, why shouldn't women speak out? Why shouldn't other women know what someone has done in the past, repeatedly? Because he may commit suicide?

Again, who said he's innocent?

People being against unchecked mob justice is not the same as saying he's innocent.

He will dodge that question with all the athleticism of a gold medal gymnast.
I can hear him running for the nearest safe-space.

We don't even have anyone involved arguing that it didn't happen. Several unconnected women said it happened. His coworkers basically affirmed. His family affirmed.

There doesn't seem to be much of a question, so I'm not sure why we're asking questions. As for "unchecked mobs," who is being talked about worse in this thread, and literally anywhere this is being discussed? Alec, or Zoe Quinn?

Who is the mob out for? Read the thread here, does anyone say anything bad about Alec? Compare to what is being said about Zoe Quinn. No one likes her, but man, you want to talk about online mobs, there's still a political movement founded on her having sex with five men.

Yet we have people here claiming that others are arguing he's innocent.

I don't really care about one side or the other, by all accounts it's a shitshow all around, but the reality is one person is dead, and if there's questions that can be asked to prevent stuff like this in the future, shouldn't we be asking them?

I don't think anyone can deny that this sort of online mob justice has gotten out of hand. Yeah sure if you do shitty things in your life, those around you have the full right, and sometimes moral responsibility, to tell others about it. But does EVERYONE on the planet really need to know?

I bet that absolutely NO ONE here needs to know about the personal details of Alec's or Zoe's life, but nowadays it's blown up everywhere, to the point where complete strangers to these people are having heated arguments about them, or worse. This does absolutely nothing to help improve the situation or prevent similar ones in the future.

If you want to get political - this guy may have been a creep, but at least he wasn't a "deny, insult and defame his accusers of lying, continue his run for president" creep. There is a spectrum.

ventry wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:37:

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:04:

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 20:58:

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 20:57:

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 18:11:
And a bunch of internet guys afraid of society, who never met this guy, saying he is innocent.

I've read through this entire bloody chain and I don't think I read any one person actually say he's %100 innocent.

There are literally multiple accusations, and not a single person has said they're wrong. In which case, why shouldn't women speak out? Why shouldn't other women know what someone has done in the past, repeatedly? Because he may commit suicide?

Again, who said he's innocent?

People being against unchecked mob justice is not the same as saying he's innocent.

He will dodge that question with all the athleticism of a gold medal gymnast.
I can hear him running for the nearest safe-space.

We don't even have anyone involved arguing that it didn't happen. Several unconnected women said it happened. His coworkers basically affirmed. His family affirmed.

There doesn't seem to be much of a question, so I'm not sure why we're asking questions. As for "unchecked mobs," who is being talked about worse in this thread, and literally anywhere this is being discussed? Alec, or Zoe Quinn?

Who is the mob out for? Read the thread here, does anyone say anything bad about Alec? Compare to what is being said about Zoe Quinn. No one likes her, but man, you want to talk about online mobs, there's still a political movement founded on her having sex with five men.

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:04:

Again, who said he's innocent?

People being against unchecked mob justice is not the same as saying he's innocent.

Several people attacking Zoe Quinn seem to think that because she is involved, the allegations are false. A couple examples. I'm sure there are more if you really want to dig into this thread and the previous one. If it was just Zoe Quinn, I wouldn't believe a word of the allegations either. But with all the other accusers, no claim of innocence from himself, and his sister basically admitting the was a creep, focusing on Zoe Quinn is absolutely a transparent way to dismiss the accusations.

Nidian wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 00:55:
That's the problem... she has proven herself, based upon her own actions & past deeds, to be nothing more than a manipulative liar. And like the ending to the boy who cried wolf... "Nobody believes a liar...even when he is telling the truth!"

Icewind wrote on Sep 1, 2019, 23:47:
Even better, Zoe stole the money, spent it all on a vacation, did zero work on the game, and Chuck now vehemently denies he was ever a part of the game and claims he never accepted anything.

She's a liar, a cheat, a manipulator, and a talent-less troll that blackmails others for money. That's her job.

Anyone defending her is clueless.

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 21:04:

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 20:58:

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 20:57:

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 18:11:
And a bunch of internet guys afraid of society, who never met this guy, saying he is innocent.

I've read through this entire bloody chain and I don't think I read any one person actually say he's %100 innocent.

There are literally multiple accusations, and not a single person has said they're wrong. In which case, why shouldn't women speak out? Why shouldn't other women know what someone has done in the past, repeatedly? Because he may commit suicide?

Again, who said he's innocent?

People being against unchecked mob justice is not the same as saying he's innocent.

He will dodge that question with all the athleticism of a gold medal gymnast.
I can hear him running for the nearest safe-space.

NKD wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 20:48:

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 18:11:
At the same time, looking at this literally without bias, we have several women accusing a man of something, his coworkers who knew him saying they believe those women, and his family saying they believe it.

And a bunch of internet guys afraid of society, who never met this guy, saying he is innocent.

Which side seems to be biased?

The side that won't respond to these facts because they are inconvenient.

Thank You


This puts your current Like count at 99+, enjoy them while you can because they will be discontinued in the near future.

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 20:58:

Razumen wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 20:57:

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2019, 18:11:
And a bunch of internet guys afraid of society, who never met this guy, saying he is innocent.

I've read through this entire bloody chain and I don't think I read any one person actually say he's %100 innocent.

There are literally multiple accusations, and not a single person has said they're wrong. In which case, why shouldn't women speak out? Why shouldn't other women know what someone has done in the past, repeatedly? Because he may commit suicide?

Again, who said he's innocent?

People being against unchecked mob justice is not the same as saying he's innocent.