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13. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 6, 2019, 09:39 Verno
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 14:37:
Tools that have the potential for mass death need to be heavily regulated (notice I didn't say banned). You can't rely on emotional humans to do the right thing 100% of the time.

I'm curious what legislation would be adequate in your mind? Let's say the government mandates an approved psych eval, an extended cooling off period and so on like other countries. I'm all for these things. Small problem though, the other 400,000,000.00 guns circulating in the country. No one seems to have a plan to deal with these. Buyback programs are somewhat effective but the US has a gun culture problem that dictates many people are going to seek to own them regardless.

Everyone seems to want to make this political and throw around blame but what's the path forward? It can't simply be "no guns" unfortunately because that's a non-starter in the US. What constructive solutions are we left with?
 



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12. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 16:31 VoodooV
 
Remember when we relaxed regulations on banks for home loans? personal responsibility and freedom worked out great there too.

freedom and personal responsibility is working out great for climate change too.

jdreyer wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 14:37:
WaltC wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 13:56:
Cutter wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 12:06:
I'd say the problem is liberal media. Conjecture is fun!


You got that right...;) "Conjecture" is actually using a more polite label than is deserved, imo. Those folks seem afraid of their own shadows, most of the time, and have this farcical notion that government regulation is superior to personal freedom and individual responsibility. Go figure. They enjoy forgetting that criminal behavior cannot be regulated any more than it already is--because that is what criminals do--break the regulations--break the law. They forget that for every person who commits a crime with a firearm there are literally millions of Americans who own them but don't use them to commit crimes of any kind. And it's so amusing for them to target computer games--while somehow forgetting all about books, TV, and movie "violence." Hollywood moans the loudest about the 2nd Amendment while most of the people doing the complaining star in movies and television chock full of gun violence--and they earn huge salaries doing it, too...;) We live in very hypocritical times.

So the government gave less regulation and more personal freedom and individual responsibility to Boeing. How'd that work out?

Tools that have the potential for mass death need to be heavily regulated (notice I didn't say banned). You can't rely on emotional humans to do the right thing 100% of the time.
 
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11. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 15:02 VoodooV
 
The problem with gun control is that it can't be just local. "Guntards" as you put it always like to point out places like Chicago that do have strict gun laws still have lots of gun deaths, but ignore the fact that guns are just brought in from states where guns laws are lax and create a black market.

So gun control has to happen at a federal level whatever form it ends up being. But then the additional problem is that there are simply too many guns out there. We have enough existing guns to arm every man, woman, child, pet, plant, appliance, furniture multiple times over. You would have to dry up the supply.

Then there has to be strict enforcement of any new laws which requires money which is another issue with our ever growing budget.

So even if there was a fundamental revolution in politics, which is would be another rare miracle in itself. You're just not going to see a significant change any time soon.

It will get worse before it gets better. It's pretty much a new form of natural selection now so in a weird way it will eventually work itself out even if we do nothing but it will be a long, extremely bloody path. There is that phrase, Live by the sword, die by the sword. well the same applies to guns. Eventually all the killers will be killed by their own tools of destruction, they're just going to have that pesky side effect of taking a lot of innocents with them. I'd prefer to find another way personally, but I'm just weird like that.
 
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10. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 14:37  jdreyer 
 
WaltC wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 13:56:
Cutter wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 12:06:
I'd say the problem is liberal media. Conjecture is fun!


You got that right...;) "Conjecture" is actually using a more polite label than is deserved, imo. Those folks seem afraid of their own shadows, most of the time, and have this farcical notion that government regulation is superior to personal freedom and individual responsibility. Go figure. They enjoy forgetting that criminal behavior cannot be regulated any more than it already is--because that is what criminals do--break the regulations--break the law. They forget that for every person who commits a crime with a firearm there are literally millions of Americans who own them but don't use them to commit crimes of any kind. And it's so amusing for them to target computer games--while somehow forgetting all about books, TV, and movie "violence." Hollywood moans the loudest about the 2nd Amendment while most of the people doing the complaining star in movies and television chock full of gun violence--and they earn huge salaries doing it, too...;) We live in very hypocritical times.

So the government gave less regulation and more personal freedom and individual responsibility to Boeing. How'd that work out?

Tools that have the potential for mass death need to be heavily regulated (notice I didn't say banned). You can't rely on emotional humans to do the right thing 100% of the time.
 
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9. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 14:34  jdreyer 
 
Bill Borre wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 11:08:
I think the problem is deeper than that. This has been going on so long now but no one discusses the elephant in the room. The system we have is ineffective at representing the will of the people.

Well, that is a huge problem. We essentially live in an oligarchy at this point.

Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.

That said, you'll always have people that disagree with political outcomes, especially people like this who are in a shrinking minority. Even if we had a government with better representation, we'd still have these kinds of unstable people who oppose the kinds of societal changes we are currently experiencing.
 
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8. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 14:05  Beamer 
 
WaltC wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 13:56:
Cutter wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 12:06:
I'd say the problem is liberal media. Conjecture is fun!


You got that right...;) "Conjecture" is actually using a more polite label than is deserved, imo. Those folks seem afraid of their own shadows, most of the time, and have this farcical notion that government regulation is superior to personal freedom and individual responsibility. Go figure. They enjoy forgetting that criminal behavior cannot be regulated any more than it already is--because that is what criminals do--break the regulations--break the law. They forget that for every person who commits a crime with a firearm there are literally millions of Americans who own them but don't use them to commit crimes of any kind. And it's so amusing for them to target computer games--while somehow forgetting all about books, TV, and movie "violence." Hollywood moans the loudest about the 2nd Amendment while most of the people doing the complaining star in movies and television chock full of gun violence--and they earn huge salaries doing it, too...;) We live in very hypocritical times.

You also fail to read - the "liberal media" isn't the one blaming video games. You're shooting the messenger here, all because people like you and Cutter can't be bothered to read before commenting.
 



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7. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 14:04  Beamer 
 
Cutter wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 12:06:
I'd say the problem is liberal media. Conjecture is fun!


You understand this article is the "liberal media" mocking Republicans for blaming games, right? So is the liberal media right here?
 



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6. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 13:56 WaltC
 
Cutter wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 12:06:
I'd say the problem is liberal media. Conjecture is fun!


You got that right...;) "Conjecture" is actually using a more polite label than is deserved, imo. Those folks seem afraid of their own shadows, most of the time, and have this farcical notion that government regulation is superior to personal freedom and individual responsibility. Go figure. They enjoy forgetting that criminal behavior cannot be regulated any more than it already is--because that is what criminals do--break the regulations--break the law. They forget that for every person who commits a crime with a firearm there are literally millions of Americans who own them but don't use them to commit crimes of any kind. And it's so amusing for them to target computer games--while somehow forgetting all about books, TV, and movie "violence." Hollywood moans the loudest about the 2nd Amendment while most of the people doing the complaining star in movies and television chock full of gun violence--and they earn huge salaries doing it, too...;) We live in very hypocritical times.
 
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5. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 13:47  RedEye9 
 
Burrito wrote an excellent op-ed in his response to Jdreyers hypothetical questions;

Thought experiment: in the wake of two consecutive shootings (El Paso & Dayton), how many consecutive days of mass shootings that made national news would have to happen before

A) We got some strict gun control

B) The second amendment got repealed


Those are going to be separate numbers.



BoP's response ( in yesterdays OOTB)
As to your questions:

I want to preface this by explaining the lens I look through when answering similar questions. I own four guns. None of them are Barbie Dress-Up guns with anything "tactical" about them. Two are rifles, one is a revolver, the last is a semi-automatic pistol. They are tools to me and not objects of worship. One rifle is to help me control coyotes and javalina on my property. One is a danger to the dogs and the other is a danger to Mrs. Burrito's crops while also being really mean sons-of-bitches that will charge you if the breeze blows a leaf the wrong way. The revolver is used to put down copperheads and cottonmouths because it is always loaded with snake shot. The other rifle is a .22 that I have had since I was 10 and I still use it for target practice to keep my skills up. My pistol is for home defense since calling the cops has a 30 minute response time in the best of circumstances. I have had to use it exactly once for that purpose in the 23 years I have lived on this property. I did not pull the trigger as I had no need to do so. Simply the presence and visibility of it worked.

That being said, the largest magazine holds a total of 9 rounds. The others less.

A) Stricter gun control will not occur until we, as a culture, stop fetishizing guns and linking them with false narratives that include, but are not limited to, toxic masculinity, the fever dream of "protecting the people from the government", as "objects d'art", and last but not least "patriotism". There is a tired of refrain of "An armed society is a polite society" which has been proven time and again by actual statistic to be untrue. Moreover, we also need to stop linking gun ownership (especially in the case of AR-15s, AK-47s, and other such rifles) with the fetishization and hero worship of the military. It is my experience that those who fetishize and hero worship the military have never spent a day in the service. If they had, they would realize that life in the service generally sucks. It's boring as Hell and you follow a bunch of procedures that make zero common sense simply because they are, in fact, procedures. They would also learn that mentally healthy people do not get raging erections from the idea of shooting another human being. If you talk to any combat vet, you'll find most of them have PTSD of some sort and carry an enormous weight of guilt with them. This is because in combat action there is no clear "good guys vs bad guys" situation. It's "Holy shit, someone is shooting at me" combined with a flood of adrenaline and fear that kicks the fight or flight instinct in at maximum overdrive.

So until there is a radical cultural shift in this country, which I doubt thoroughly will ever happen, you will never see "strict" gun control. Some gun control, yes, but not anything that could be defined as "strict". I am very much onboard with the idea of "strict" gun control as a gun owner. I want it to be more difficult for people to purchase and own guns. I want there to be a magazine capacity limit that is >10. I want licensing to be a thing. I also want people to have to go to a range and get certified as part of that licensing that they can hit the broad side of a barn in two rounds or less.

B) Here we need to tread very carefully. We do not want the process of repealing an amendment to be either easy or done on a whim. We remember Prohibition, right? I'm not much of a drinker but the wholesale outlawing of a good or service because it rankles a percentage of the population's beliefs for a short sighted and short term "goal" is generally a very bad idea. Moreover, we really shouldn't be butchering what is left of the Constitution when federal laws would be a more precise and judicial solution.

Guntards like to screech "What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand" with earnest sincerity without understanding the circumstances and level of technology present during the creation of the Second Amendment. However, federal laws requiring licensing and magazine capacity limits doesn't infringe upon your Second Amendment rights in the slightest. You simply must prove that you are of sound mind and body and possess the proper skillset to own a firearm.


So I would not in any way support a repeal of the Second Amendment, or any of the first ten, when there are better solutions available to us now. We must simply possess the political will, as a population, to regain the control of our government from lobbyists, special interest groups, and corporations and begin to enact and enforce laws that provide for the just betterment of society as a whole and not a select, minuscule percentage of that society.
 
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4. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 12:10 headkase
 
Bill Borre wrote on Aug 5, 2019, 11:08:
I think the problem is deeper than that. This has been going on so long now but no one discusses the elephant in the room. The system we have is ineffective at representing the will of the people.

America is suffering from systemic regulatory capture. Read about that idea. Then on top of it, read about oligarchy, and plutocracy. America arguably, not what they say but what they do, falls into both those categories as well.
 
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3. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 12:06  Cutter 
 
I'd say the problem is liberal media. Conjecture is fun!

 
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2. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 11:08 Bill Borre
 
I think the problem is deeper than that. This has been going on so long now but no one discusses the elephant in the room. The system we have is ineffective at representing the will of the people.  
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1. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2019, 10:49 headkase
 
Don't let the lies about video games causing gun violence confuse you. It will always be anything but the guns themselves. Republicans are in the pocket of the NRA and they will throw up any old bullshit-screen to distract from the real point that guns make killing people very efficient and therefore should be regulated.  
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