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32. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 12:53 Burrito of Peace
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 16, 2019, 10:36:
You just sold me on a $200 x570 board...

So you're going with the system we specced out weeks ago? Good to know.
 
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31. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 11:22 CJ_Parker
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Jul 16, 2019, 09:55:
While I agree that there isn't any proof that Huang is inserting malicious code, there is proof that nvidia has engaged in shady shit just like Intel did. Creating faster pathways on the GPU die for particular benchmarks. They got hammered into the ground on the antitrust case on that one if you remember.

No, I don't remember that. I remember that both nVidia and ATI got caught "cheating" in benchmarks on various occasions years ago, although there always was and is a fine line between smart/heavy "optimizations" and unfair foul play.

The Intel antitrust was a totally different story. Intel got fined (but hardly "hammered into the ground" ) because they effectively bribed OEMs not to build systems with -at the time superior- AMD CPUs inside.

But keeping in mind with this, driver to driver release nvidia cards seem to have a far greater drop-off in terms of performance than AMD cards do.

OK, that's a pretty bold claim because the very article we are commenting on here proves the exact opposite of what you are saying so let's see some links that prove this "far greater drop-off".

You should go look at their current offerings on video cards, they've just spent the last 2.5 tick-tock cycles cleaning nvidia's plate, because nvidia decided that the mining market was far more lucrative. By far more, I mean not at all. To the point that Huang was telling investors that despite the market falling out, the company is still profitable...really. Just to boil it all down.

nVidia has always had very decent net margins. They don't need mining for that. Their net margins are their holy cow. Like a good CEO, Huang is very concerned with his precious profitability.
nVidia could have easily released cards on TSMC's 7nm node but they have deliberately chosen not to because they don't need to with the weak competition from AMD.
TSMC is charging a pretty penny for 7nm and designs for 7nm are expensive. It is much more profitable for nVidia to stay on 12nm with great yields as the process has matured.

Of course, the company is still profitable. nVidia were very profitable before mining and they will continue to be so post-mining unless they deliberately choose to blow lots of monies on R&D for datacenter, AI and automotive.
Those are their major areas of focus. Gaming is their bread & butter business after all these years. They are digging for growth and even fatter margins in these other segments.
 
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30. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 10:36 RedEye9
 
Simon Says wrote on Jul 16, 2019, 10:17:
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 19:52:
Simon Says wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 19:36:
Watched the video... I thought the 200$ X570s were the sweet spot and if they're too pricey, the cheapest X570 Buildzoid recommended ( around 160$ ) would still be better than say a 250$ X470 for an 8 cores? Which of the X470 boards have you been eyeing exactly?
The MSI x470 Carbon Pro does everything I need to do along with bios flashback.
I will rewatch the video again and take better notes. Thanks for the heads-up Simon Says

The X470 mobo you pointed out looks good, the similarly priced X570s differences are just PCIe4 support, USB 3.2 ( for the ASUS one ), altho all at this price point don't have Intel LAN, the 200$ ASUS one doesn't have Intel LAN if that's a big selling point for you, the Gigabyte Aorus Elite 200$ does ( also has USB 3.2 ), the X470 Pro Carbon does have Intel LAN too and that X470 would also do just fine imho if USB Gen 3.2 isn't a concern ( it's max is USB 3.1 Gen 2, BLOODY CONFUSING USB NAMING ).

Anyway, among the ones buildzoid discussed in the X470 section for 8 cores Ryzen 3000 ( Pro Carbon X470 among them ) and those he discusses at 21:02 through 23:46, you really can't go wrong. It's really just a matter of personal preference at this point and the Intel LAN, integrated WIFI, audio slot setups and other factors left to user preference. VRM on all of them is perfectly fine for 8 cores. X470 having no fan on the chipset is also a big plus AFAIC for the long run, no headaches about it breaking after a few years and having to get a new fan or jury rig a copper heatsink Der8auer style.

GL
OK alright already jeez. Wink Grin

You just sold me on a $200 x570 board, or an x470 if my OCD starts sweating about a chipset fan and I can already feel my pits getting moist. decisions decisions. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME

side note; The other day I quit watching at 20:02 because that's where it started up when I clicked on it so I never made it that far and missed those $200 dollar boards. so doh
 
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29. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 10:17 Simon Says
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 19:52:
Simon Says wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 19:36:
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 17:22:
After watching the gn video yesterday it's max x470 and 3700x for me just like I've been preaching all along.

Watched the video... I thought the 200$ X570s were the sweet spot and if they're too pricey, the cheapest X570 Buildzoid recommended ( around 160$ ) would still be better than say a 250$ X470 for an 8 cores?

Which of the X470 boards have you been eyeing exactly?
The MSI x470 Carbon Pro does everything I need to do along with bios flashback. I could even run a B450 because I won't be crossfire/sli'ing gpu's.
But I'd hate to lose my e-peen ranking.

I will rewatch the video again and take better notes. Thanks for the heads-up Simon Says

The X470 mobo you pointed out looks good, the similarly priced X570s differences are just PCIe4 support, USB 3.2 ( for the ASUS one ), altho all at this price point don't have Intel LAN, the 200$ ASUS one doesn't have Intel LAN if that's a big selling point for you, the Gigabyte Aorus Elite 200$ does ( also has USB 3.2 ), the X470 Pro Carbon does have Intel LAN too and that X470 would also do just fine imho if USB Gen 3.2 isn't a concern ( its max is USB 3.1 Gen 2, BLOODY CONFUSING USB NAMING ).

Anyway, among the ones buildzoid discussed in the X470 section for 8 cores Ryzen 3000 ( Pro Carbon X470 among them ) and those he discusses at 21:02 through 23:46, you really can't go wrong. It's really just a matter of personal preference at this point and the Intel LAN, integrated WIFI, audio, slot setups and other factors left to user preference. VRM on all of them is perfectly fine for 8 cores. X470 having no fan on the chipset is also a big plus AFAIC for the long run, no headaches about it breaking after a few years and having to get a new fan or jury rig a copper heatsink Der8auer style.

GL

This comment was edited on Jul 16, 2019, 11:09.
 
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28. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 10:09 RedEye9
 
Comments from the guy I wouldn't let weed-eat my vacant lot.

30,000 posts. Lets break that down.
5k from people who don't own a card or own a card but don't have the problem. Looks through link that ma failed to provide, yep checks out.
3k nVidia and/or mod responses
20k consisting of multiple posts by people with the problem because most people who are affected will post multiple times, average 3.7x as a matter of fact.
Rounding down to 3.5 for margin of ze error you come up with 8571 peeps who had driver issues which were fixed with a driver update.

nvidia is the devil, yep, checks out.
 
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27. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 09:59 Mashiki Amiketo
 
Beamer wrote on Jul 16, 2019, 08:54:

But isn't this common sense? Wouldn't you have your best developers on your best products? I'm certain AMD does that, as well, if devs can only focus on one product line at a time.
Yes and no. You'll want someone from the driver team that knows the optimizations in place, so that when the "teams in training" which are what B and C teams are, to explain how those optimizations work on the existing hardware without breaking compatibility. The other part is you'll want "what isn't broken, to not be fixed." Nvidia has a far longer history of serious performance drop offs between the various teams and it's been like that for years.

Remember when Skyrim was released, and there was suddenly a massive increase in load times on nvidia cards? Enjoying those changes that the driver team did, which then were hotfixed four times, and still wasn't working right. Yeah.
 
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26. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 09:55 Mashiki Amiketo
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Jul 16, 2019, 03:54:
Breaking news: Developers don't 100% focus and optimize for ten year old graphics cards!

What you are saying (if true at all) is not what the AMD fanboys are claiming. The AMD fanboys are claiming that Huang instructs nVidia developers to insert malicious code in new drivers to slow down old cards.

This article here proves that such claims are 100% bullshit. There are lots of benchmarks on the web showing similar results. There are always SOME games, both on AMD and nVidia that will lose performance under newer drivers but the claim that nVidia is intentionally sabotaging their older cards is ludicrous.
It happens inadvertently, of course, with some games on both AMD and nVidia cards. Such is the nature of maintaining compatibility.

Breaking news: Developers don't write graphic card drivers and end-wrappers for video cards.(I'm kidding slightly) While I agree that there isn't any proof that Huang is inserting malicious code, there is proof that nvidia has engaged in shady shit just like Intel did. Creating faster pathways on the GPU die for particular benchmarks. They got hammered into the ground on the antitrust case on that one if you remember. But keeping in mind with this, driver to driver release nvidia cards seem to have a far greater drop-off in terms of performance than AMD cards do.

Yes, I remember that and they did so because the issue was super-rare and they could never reproduce it in-house. That's why they needed user PCs to investigate.
Ever since 3Dfx went down the toilet, I have been using nVidia exclusively and easily owned a couple dozen cards over the past twenty years. I, for one, have never seen a TDR in my entire life.
You mean besides the ~30k odd posts from different users just on their own forum? Most of which were fixed when the end-user increased the voltage of the GPU. Those cards at the time ran hot, and the only way nvidia could keep them from cooking themselves to death at idle was to lower the core voltage. Once they turned around and stopped lowering the core voltage, the problem effectively went away.

You should go look at their current offerings on video cards, they've just spent the last 2.5 tick-tock cycles cleaning nvidia's plate, because nvidia decided that the mining market was far more lucrative. By far more, I mean not at all. To the point that Huang was telling investors that despite the market falling out, the company is still profitable...really. Just to boil it all down.
 
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"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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25. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 08:54 Beamer
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 21:41:
CJ_Parker wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 14:14:

The headline is based on AMD fanboy drivel that Radeons generally gain massive performance over time through the power of FineWine™ drivers while nVidia cards generally lose massive performance because Huang personally instructs his driver developers to ruin the performance on older cards once nVidia have released a new gen.

It's not really clickbait. There are a lot of AMD fanboys who are spreading these kinds of lies all over tech forums and Reddit. This article is doing a good job of illustrating how full of shit they are.

Know where this starts from? Nvidia itself, way back when nvidia had their own forums(prior to the security breach and shutdown) there were multiple posts from people within the company including members of the driver development team that stated when nvidia launches a new card, they shift the current 'performance' team to the new card, and leave driver updates and maintenance to teams B and C, who often downgrade higher performance for more stability. This isn't some grand conspiracy, there was plenty of proof posted on their own boards and the CM's even acknowledged that performance took a hit over the long-term.

Remember when nvidia was paying at their cost, to have people bring their PC's or have them shipped to them at their cost because of the TDR problems? That was back in the GTX500, 600 and 700 days.

But isn't this common sense? Wouldn't you have your best developers on your best products? I'm certain AMD does that, as well, if devs can only focus on one product line at a time.
 
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24. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 08:36 Burrito of Peace
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 21:14:
Now that AMD is competitive again I fear that x570 and the AM4 chipset will be a thing of the past in 5 to 7 years. Tech advances rapidly when there's competition.

That is probably true but my "future upgrades" are only bigger SSDs as the price per gigabyte comes down and GPUs. Once I have the motherboard and CPU, that stays static throughout the service life of the system. For example, my current system is a 1151 socket. Those haven't been produced in how long?

So, in that sense, my upgrade path for the future will be a PCIe 4.0 GPU (which I imagine we'll see with the next new architecture from AMD, Nvidia, and possibly Intel). My system will be ready for that.

Also, it may be that future M2 SSDs will benefit from the greater bandwidth that PCIe 4.0 offers as well.
 
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23. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 07:38 Verno
 
It doesn't help that AMD cut their driver team to the bone awhile ago. I think developers are a little more conscious these days of testing with AMD stuff but they're still a small part of the enthusiast market overall. They have a lot of ground to make up and really need to get going on that before Intel enters the market.  
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22. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 16, 2019, 03:54 CJ_Parker
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 21:41:
Know where this starts from? Nvidia itself, way back when nvidia had their own forums(prior to the security breach and shutdown) there were multiple posts from people within the company including members of the driver development team that stated when nvidia launches a new card, they shift the current 'performance' team to the new card, and leave driver updates and maintenance to teams B and C, who often downgrade higher performance for more stability. This isn't some grand conspiracy, there was plenty of proof posted on their own boards and the CM's even acknowledged that performance took a hit over the long-term.

Breaking news: Developers don't 100% focus and optimize for ten year old graphics cards!

What you are saying (if true at all) is not what the AMD fanboys are claiming. The AMD fanboys are claiming that Huang instructs nVidia developers to insert malicious code in new drivers to slow down old cards.

This article here proves that such claims are 100% bullshit. There are lots of benchmarks on the web showing similar results. There are always SOME games, both on AMD and nVidia that will lose performance under newer drivers but the claim that nVidia is intentionally sabotaging their older cards is ludicrous.
It happens inadvertently, of course, with some games on both AMD and nVidia cards. Such is the nature of maintaining compatibility.

Remember when nvidia was paying at their cost, to have people bring their PC's or have them shipped to them at their cost because of the TDR problems? That was back in the GTX500, 600 and 700 days.

Yes, I remember that and they did so because the issue was super-rare and they could never reproduce it in-house. That's why they needed user PCs to investigate.
Ever since 3Dfx went down the toilet, I have been using nVidia exclusively and easily owned a couple dozen cards over the past twenty years. I, for one, have never seen a TDR in my entire life.

I also think that nVidia driver support, even for older games, is MOSTLY pretty good. Example: After years of the game collecting dust on my pile of shame I finally played Doom 3 BFG one fine day in early 2015.
As misfortune would have it, nVidia released a new driver at just that time that broke Doom 3 BFG and turned it into a weird unplayable psychedelic experience. Since the game was kinda ancient at that point, I fully expected to be forced to wait for months or roll back the drivers but instead nVidia fixed it with the next driver release within a month.

My personal subjective(!) impression is generally that nVidia is way better when it comes to backwards compatibility. I somehow always seem to see way more stickies on forums of older games like "Attention Radeon owners" with troubleshooting tips compared to nVidia. It's one of the reasons I have stuck with nVidia since the 3Dfx days. ATI/AMD has never had a compelling product with maybe one exception... the 7870 but those glory days for ATI were short-lived as nVidia countered it quite swiftly.
 
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21. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 15, 2019, 21:41 Mashiki Amiketo
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 14:14:

The headline is based on AMD fanboy drivel that Radeons generally gain massive performance over time through the power of FineWine™ drivers while nVidia cards generally lose massive performance because Huang personally instructs his driver developers to ruin the performance on older cards once nVidia have released a new gen.

It's not really clickbait. There are a lot of AMD fanboys who are spreading these kinds of lies all over tech forums and Reddit. This article is doing a good job of illustrating how full of shit they are.

Know where this starts from? Nvidia itself, way back when nvidia had their own forums(prior to the security breach and shutdown) there were multiple posts from people within the company including members of the driver development team that stated when nvidia launches a new card, they shift the current 'performance' team to the new card, and leave driver updates and maintenance to teams B and C, who often downgrade higher performance for more stability. This isn't some grand conspiracy, there was plenty of proof posted on their own boards and the CM's even acknowledged that performance took a hit over the long-term.

Remember when nvidia was paying at their cost, to have people bring their PC's or have them shipped to them at their cost because of the TDR problems? That was back in the GTX500, 600 and 700 days.
 
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"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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20. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 15, 2019, 21:14 RedEye9
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 19:15:

<Takes a victory lap>

I won't be going with an x470 because I think it limits future upgrade potential in 5 to 7 years. However, you probably have a shorter service life than I for your machines.
Now that AMD is competitive again I fear that x570 and the AM4 chipset will be a thing of the past in 5 to 7 years. Tech advances rapidly when there's competition.
 
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19. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 15, 2019, 19:52 RedEye9
 
Simon Says wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 19:36:
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 17:22:
After watching the gn video yesterday it's max x470 and 3700x for me just like I've been preaching all along.

Watched the video... I thought the 200$ X570s were the sweet spot and if they're too pricey, the cheapest X570 Buildzoid recommended ( around 160$ ) would still be better than say a 250$ X470 for an 8 cores?

Which of the X470 boards have you been eyeing exactly?
The MSI x470 Carbon Pro does everything I need to do along with bios flashback. I could even run a B450 because I won't be crossfire/sli'ing gpu's.
But I'd hate to lose my e-peen ranking.

I will rewatch the video again and take better notes. Thanks for the heads-up Simon Says

This comment was edited on Jul 15, 2019, 21:20.
 
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18. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 15, 2019, 19:36 Simon Says
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 17:22:
After watching the gn video yesterday it's max x470 and 3700x for me just like I've been preaching all along.

Watched the video... I thought the 200$ X570s were the sweet spot and if they're too pricey, the cheapest X570 Buildzoid recommended ( around 160$ ) would still be better than say a 250$ X470 for an 8 cores?

Which of the X470 boards have you been eyeing exactly?
 
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17. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 15, 2019, 19:15 Burrito of Peace
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 17:22:
I fucking saw that and was hoping you'd call in sick today especially since you have that nasty cough.
After watching the gn video yesterday it's max x470 and 3700x for me just like I've been preaching all along.

<Takes a victory lap>

I won't be going with an x470 because I think it limits future upgrade potential in 5 to 7 years. However, you probably have a shorter service life than I for your machines.
 
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16. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 15, 2019, 17:22 RedEye9
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 16:02:
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 15:37:
Are you fooling me, I'd sooner be rickrolled. Sad Face

nvrmnd found it
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-7-3800x-review,6226.html

<coughs>I like how they pointed out multiple times that the 3700X was the better value and roughly matched the performance of the 3800X for $70 less.<coughs>
I fucking saw that and was hoping you'd call in sick today especially since you have that nasty cough.
After watching the gn video yesterday it's max x470 and 3700x for me just like I've been preaching all along.
 
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15. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 15, 2019, 16:52 Simon Says
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 16:02:
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 15:37:
Are you fooling me, I'd sooner be rickrolled. Sad Face

nvrmnd found it
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-7-3800x-review,6226.html

<coughs>I like how they pointed out multiple times that the 3700X was the better value and roughly matched the performance of the 3800X for $70 less.<coughs>

Yeah it really seems like the additional 70$ is just not worth it.
 
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14. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 15, 2019, 16:02 Burrito of Peace
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 15:37:
Are you fooling me, I'd sooner be rickrolled. Sad Face

nvrmnd found it
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-7-3800x-review,6226.html

<coughs>I like how they pointed out multiple times that the 3700X was the better value and roughly matched the performance of the 3800X for $70 less.<coughs>
 
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13. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 15, 2019, 15:56 Burrito of Peace
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 15, 2019, 14:15:
ps are 3900x available at msrp in your neck of the internet/woods. or are they too power hungry for your needs
I'd think w/the vms need it'd be damn the torpedoes full speed ahead mode.

Too power hungry and heat generating. My system is mostly used with development VMs and I prefer a cool and quiet system.

For production VMs, I have a cluster of four Dell R720s.
 
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