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16. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 12, 2019, 19:49 Simon Says
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Jul 11, 2019, 12:27:
Simon Says wrote on Jul 11, 2019, 11:01:
It's always the same song each time a new PCIe gen gets introduced and you know what always happens a few years later? The old gen becomes a bottleneck.

Nah, not really true.

"Ancient" PCIe 2.0 is still not a real problem, even today:

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/pci-express-4-0-performance-scaling-radeon-rx-5700-xt/

NVMe 4x raid satured PCIe 2.0 and 3.0 in 2011... The same year PCIe 3.0 released. HELLO
 
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15. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 11, 2019, 12:51 Verno
 
Simon Says wrote on Jul 11, 2019, 11:01:
It's always the same song each time a new PCIe gen gets introduced and you know what always happens a few years later? The old gen becomes a bottleneck.

Errr no. Only the 2080ti can saturate PCIe 3.0 x8 and even then the performance gain is a paltry 3% when moving to x16. By the time PCIe 3.0 is a serious bottleneck concern people will be moving platforms anyway with AM4 dead ended next year and who knows whats going on with Intel. I believe your own advice in a previous thread was to not buy anything right now anyway because the consoles are just going to instantly obsolete all purchases soon
 
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14. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 11, 2019, 12:27 CJ_Parker
 
Simon Says wrote on Jul 11, 2019, 11:01:
It's always the same song each time a new PCIe gen gets introduced and you know what always happens a few years later? The old gen becomes a bottleneck.

Nah, not really true.

"Ancient" PCIe 2.0 is still not a real problem, even today:

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/pci-express-4-0-performance-scaling-radeon-rx-5700-xt/
 
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13. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 11, 2019, 12:23 CJ_Parker
 
Ozmodan wrote on Jul 11, 2019, 07:22:
I expect you will need a new motherboard with this new group of processors. You would think Intel would actually realize that making people constantly change motherboards is an added expense that few want to bother with. I agree with everyone else too, the PCIE 4.0 standard is a waste atm.

They have to do it because the mobo makers demand it. Same for AMD. While AMD have stuck to the AM4 socket since the first Ryzen, they have still had a new chipset and a new lineup of boards for every new Ryzen CPU.

Also, when they revealed Zen 2, AMD has whined about how challenging it was to maintain AM4 compatibility for Zen 2. This might mean we will see a new AMD socket next year as well.
In any case, AMD were probably already forced to make compromises that have hurt Zen 2 just because they promised to stick to AM4 until 2020.

That's actually pretty stupid if you have to shoehorn your brandnew tech into an existing "vintage" socket that was designed for a vastly different architectural design. You invalidate any learning process and might be forced to artificially hold back the new design's full potential. That's just dumb.

So, aside from the mobo makers demanding new chipsets and sockets for new products, you also have real tangible technical/electrical reasons why the socket needs to be replaced every so often.
Real PC enthusiasts won't have a problem with that anyway because there are always new chipset/mobo features to be had... PCIe 4.0, more PCIe lanes, newer/faster DDR-RAM support, new USB versions, more m.2 slots for SSDs, faster LAN, better audio codecs, you name it.

It's usually only the cheapskate AMD peasants who whine about new boards... you know, the ones who pair their fancy new 12 core 3900X CPU with the cheapest, lowest possible quality B450 trash board.
 
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12. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 11, 2019, 11:40 Riahderymnmaddog
 
Ill be sticking with Intel until AMD doesn't require 50% more cores to "crush" Intel with 10% less performance. LOL seriously did you read the benchmarks reviews.

 
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11. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 11, 2019, 11:01 Simon Says
 
Ozmodan wrote on Jul 11, 2019, 07:22:
I agree with everyone else too, the PCIE 4.0 standard is a waste atm.

It's always the same song each time a new PCIe gen gets introduced and you know what always happens a few years later? The old gen becomes a bottleneck. When I build the base for a new PC ( mobo+cpu+ram ), I build it for 5-7 years ( with occasional GPU upgrades ), not 2-3 years, so if I were to build a PC now, I'd settle for no less than a PCIe4 board. And I'll recommend everyone get no less than a PCIe4 board too.

If Panic Lake doesn't support gen 4, I'll never recommend it, period.
 
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10. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 11, 2019, 10:07 RedEye9
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Jul 11, 2019, 09:07:
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 10, 2019, 22:58:
Which has me leaning towards the less expensive x470 instead of the x570, that is of course if BoP won't tease me to the point of tears.

<Hears the dog whistle, comes a'runnin'>

Jokes aside, I wouldn't go that route but I tend to have longer service lives for my machines than apparently most people. My target is 5-7 years for the MB, RAM, and CPU. GPUs and drives get swapped out as necessary or as desired. That being the case, I will be going with an x570 chipset based motherboard. Probably the ASRock Extreme4 because I get everything the Taichi offers minus the built in WLAN which I do not need. This allows me to upgrade to a PCIe 4.0 GPU and possibly m2 SSDs in the future without worrying about sacrificing bus bandwidth.

My concern with the getting an x470 based board now, barring the lack of breathing room for future expansion and upgrades, is getting a board that will not boot because the AEGES on it is too old to support the 3000 series. Yes, I can fix it with an AEGES update but I have to get to the point where I can get it to POST to do the update in the first place. As I do not have access to a 2000 series CPU, and no one I know has one, I don't want to be put in that position.
Awe fudge, I never thought about the bios/AEGES issue.
In the past AMD had loaner cpu's but that's an extra hoop to jump through if I wanna go that route.

edit
X570 Phantom Gaming 4 would suit my needs.

This comment was edited on Jul 11, 2019, 10:24.
 
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9. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 11, 2019, 09:07 Burrito of Peace
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 10, 2019, 22:58:
Which has me leaning towards the less expensive x470 instead of the x570, that is of course if BoP won't tease me to the point of tears.

<Hears the dog whistle, comes a'runnin'>

Jokes aside, I wouldn't go that route but I tend to have longer service lives for my machines than apparently most people. My target is 5-7 years for the MB, RAM, and CPU. GPUs and drives get swapped out as necessary or as desired. That being the case, I will be going with an x570 chipset based motherboard. Probably the ASRock Extreme4 because I get everything the Taichi offers minus the built in WLAN which I do not need. This allows me to upgrade to a PCIe 4.0 GPU and possibly m2 SSDs in the future without worrying about sacrificing bus bandwidth.

My concern with the getting an x470 based board now, barring the lack of breathing room for future expansion and upgrades, is getting a board that will not boot because the AEGES on it is too old to support the 3000 series. Yes, I can fix it with an AEGES update but I have to get to the point where I can get it to POST to do the update in the first place. As I do not have access to a 2000 series CPU, and no one I know has one, I don't want to be put in that position.
 
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8. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 11, 2019, 08:58 Wallshadows
 
Cutter wrote on Jul 10, 2019, 23:52:
Yeah, but by the time they arrive AMD will already be doing price cuts. For the minimal advantage Intel and Nvidia provide they're simply not worth the hefty added costs IMO.

Some online retailers are already going under MSRP for the 3600 series. Board prices are still high but seem to be creeping down a little and that doesn't include the fact that there's nearly no performance or efficiency loss by going with a previous gen.

Also factor in the cooling cost required which Intel either lacks entirely or is garbage when compared to the Wraith models from AMD. You'll also need a new board because, well, Intel.

As for these, Intel has been known to fudge their TDP rating based on base clocks and not with turbo boost so while some of those look nice on paper you can bet that a 10 core 14nm processor is going to need some monstrous cooling when we can already point to the 8core 9900 and see how hot it gets.
 
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7. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 11, 2019, 07:22 Ozmodan
 
That cracked me up, "Panic Lake". I expect you will need a new motherboard with this new group of processors. You would think Intel would actually realize that making people constantly change motherboards is an added expense that few want to bother with. I agree with everyone else too, the PCIE 4.0 standard is a waste atm.  
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6. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 10, 2019, 23:52 Cutter
 
Yeah, but by the time they arrive AMD will already be doing price cuts. For the minimal advantage Intel and Nvidia provide they're simply not worth the hefty added costs IMO.
 
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5. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 10, 2019, 22:58 RedEye9
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Jul 10, 2019, 22:15:
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 10, 2019, 21:22:
The 10th generation Panic Lake lacks PCIe gen 4.0, uses 32 Gbps DMI 3.0 chipset bus, and will be accompanied by the new 495-series chipset that sits on the same package as the CPU die
From techpowerup, thnx Mastershake hardforum
I have fallen so out of date with this stuff. None of that means anything to me...
Suffice it to say pci 4.0 is gonna be almost impossible to saturate unless you're doing crossfire/sli gaming simultaneously while transferring files between 2 nvme 4x4 quad raided arrays.
Which has me leaning towards the less expensive x470 instead of the x570, that is of course if BoP won't tease me to the point of tears.
 
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4. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 10, 2019, 22:53 HorrorScope
 
I see prices and they are in the ball park, need ETA and benches asap or I'm diving in. But probably fake.  
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3. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 10, 2019, 22:15 Mr. Tact
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jul 10, 2019, 21:22:
The 10th generation Panic Lake lacks PCIe gen 4.0, uses 32 Gbps DMI 3.0 chipset bus, and will be accompanied by the new 495-series chipset that sits on the same package as the CPU die
From techpowerup, thnx Mastershake hardforum
I have fallen so out of date with this stuff. None of that means anything to me...
 



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2. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 10, 2019, 21:25 RedEye9
 
Panic Lake, I'm still giggling like a little girl. Grin
14nm++++..+++
 
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“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.”
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1. Re: Evening Tech Bits Jul 10, 2019, 21:22 RedEye9
 

The 10th generation Panic Lake lacks PCIe gen 4.0, uses 32 Gbps DMI 3.0 chipset bus, and will be accompanied by the new 495-series chipset that sits on the same package as the CPU die
From techpowerup, thnx Mastershake hardforum
 
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“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.”
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