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Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition

An extremely long string of tweets from Mike Rose (showing why Twitter is not ideal for complex thoughts) reacts to G2A's statement from earlier today. G2A defended their practices in what was in part a response to previous posts by Rose saying he'd rather see customers pirate his games than buy keys from G2A. Here are Mike's tweets, which culminate in a Petition asking G2A to "Stop selling indie titles on your platform," which G2A says will simply leave a vacuum in the marketplace that others will fill:

G2A have written a lengthy post responded to my tweets https://www.g2a.com/news/latest/g2...

So here's my response:

- They're lying. I did get in contact, and talked to them at length. I have all the emails, so I guess I'll have to post those soon
- I never mentioned chargebacks at any point

- They say I have a "pretty good at handling the keys they donít want available on the free market". Yes I do! And that's because G2A exists. I've had to stop giving out keys so freely to potential press + influencers because G2A doesn't care about policing their site

- Because of this "pretty good handling", it means that we're far less inclined to get involved with things like, for example, a Humble Bundle, as we know all the keys will appear on G2A afterwards, and tank our Steam sales from that point onwards. *This* is the issue with G2A

- They say "Just join G2A Direct!", but this is nonsense, as they then sell your game alongside all the illegitimate keys. Why on earth would any developer want their game sold officially alongside a grey market? Do they think we're idiots?

I have so many more thoughts on their bullshit, but the tl;dr is:

G2A do not care about the people who make games, no matter what spin they keep frothing out. Do not fall for it. Plenty of devs have tried to reason with them, but they are not to be reasoned with.

And hey, when you read this G2A: You have my phone number, I gave it to you when we were emailing back and forth. Ask your dev relations person Mateusz. I'm waiting on your call!

One more thing to add:

G2A say barely any copies of Descenders have sold on G2A, but *this isn't the fucking point*.

The problem is the *perception of value*. If someone sees our game at a low price on G2A, they'll automatically be less inclined to buy full price.

As an industry, we are constantly fighting for players to perceive our games as valuable. If you see that Descenders is available for cheap somewhere dodgy, your brain will say "hmm, maybe I shouldn't buy it full price?"

G2A facilitate this shift every single day and don't care

So let's delve into these lovely stats G2A have provided for us!

Descenders has sold 226 copies on G2A... but one single person sold 45% of those. In fact, 85% of keys were sold by 3 people!

So where the heck did they get so many cheap/free keys? How is that even possible?

You can see that one guy selling 102 Steam keys on February 14, 2018. At that point the game was only available on Steam, and was 10% in the launch sale. I remember seeing these keys on G2A for around $13 at the time

So how did this one person get 100 keys he could sell for $13?

Clearly these 100 keys are a red flag. All the other 1s, 2s appearing -- fine, that'll always happen.

100 keys appearing from a single person? 3 people selling 85% of keys for a game on G2A?

Come on now, haha. These are clearly flaggable, yet G2A did nothing.

Here's how much Descenders cost throughout its lifetime. The cheapest price at the time of these keys going up was $22.49.

How were they appearing on G2A for nearly half the price? Is that genuinely not cause for concern to the people running the sales platform?

I love this line too. It shows that G2A have zero understanding of how games sell.

*Of course AAA games sell way more than indie titles, you morons*.

AAA games are:
- Triple the price of indie titles
- Have widespread marketing campaigns
- Are pushed hard by sales platforms

But obviously indie titles only account for 8% of G2A's sales, so

fuck 'em, right?

Who gives a shit about the smaller devs, they barely make us any money anyway

Anyway, this whole post is a beautiful trainwreck, and I'm gonna print it out and put it on my wall to remind me daily that G2A are laughably bad for our industry, and clearly have no idea why, despite people telling them over and over again

For anyone following this thread, a petition has been started to ask G2A to remove indie titles from their store.

If we're only 8% of sales, then surely it's better to help the industry out for such a measly amount?

Please sign and share!

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24 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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24. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 9, 2019, 01:19 Orogogus
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Jul 7, 2019, 13:10:
(which would be a valid use of the Fair Sale Doctrine argument in the US)

It's "First Sale Doctrine."
 
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23. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 7, 2019, 18:27 Jerykk
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Jul 7, 2019, 13:10:
Jerykk wrote on Jul 6, 2019, 21:03:

"Shitty loophole." You mean the right of customers to sell products they've legally obtained? Because that's what G2A allows. It's essentially the eBay for game keys. Mike Ross made it very clear that he's offended by unauthorized reselling as a whole (hence his criticism of people selling bundle keys), not just fraudulent purchases. Of course devs and pubs dislike unauthorized reselling. That gives them way less control over pricing. They'd rather have a closed garden than an open market.

This would be a good argument, if the specter of stolen credit cards/money laundering wasn't hovering over each of these keys. You have no idea if they're legally obtained. They definitely weren't used and then resold (which would be a valid use of the Fair Sale Doctrine argument in the US); people are buying large quantities of keys *somehow* and then immediately selling them. At the very least it's approaching ticket scalping type behavior, which is illegal in many countries.

Morally bankrupt, definitely. Currently legal for people to buy out of region and resell in a more expensive region? Yes, but as you're sticking it to the man keep in mind that eventually those cheaper regions will simply no longer be offered games at low prices, or potentially have them offered at all. Your short term gains will screw many people over in the long term. Act as you will, I guess.

*Disclaimer* I bought 2 games off of G2A years ago, for obscenely low prices, (near release day both times) and was curious why the prices were so low. I stopped after hearing about credit card fraud. Both were Steam keys, neither one got revoked. Origin: "global."

If G2A works out something with Steam/Gog/Origin/Uplay/EGS etc. to resell peoples' game keys they used and no longer want, I'd support them, but good luck with that.

If a reseller buys a bunch of keys using a stolen credit card or performs a chargeback, those keys will inevitably be revoked, especially if they were purchased directly from Steam. That's why Ross' claims are so dubious. He claims that Steam was the only place where those keys could have been obtained. If they were obtained illegally, he would most definitely know and have specific proof to provide G2A. Instead, he just points to the quantity of keys sold, as if it's uncommon for resellers to buy keys in bulk.

As for cross-region reselling, that's why region-locking exists. It's not a new thing. If you want to support regional pricing but don't want cross-region reselling, just region-lock your game.

Resellers are under no obligation to cater to the demands of devs or publishers. They can do whatever they want with their keys without "authorization." If a dev/pub wants to mitigate reselling, they can avoid distributing keys outside of Steam, add region locks, etc.
 
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22. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 7, 2019, 13:10 MoreLuckThanSkill
 
Jerykk wrote on Jul 6, 2019, 21:03:

"Shitty loophole." You mean the right of customers to sell products they've legally obtained? Because that's what G2A allows. It's essentially the eBay for game keys. Mike Ross made it very clear that he's offended by unauthorized reselling as a whole (hence his criticism of people selling bundle keys), not just fraudulent purchases. Of course devs and pubs dislike unauthorized reselling. That gives them way less control over pricing. They'd rather have a closed garden than an open market.

This would be a good argument, if the specter of stolen credit cards/money laundering wasn't hovering over each of these keys. You have no idea if they're legally obtained. They definitely weren't used and then resold (which would be a valid use of the Fair Sale Doctrine argument in the US); people are buying large quantities of keys *somehow* and then immediately selling them. At the very least it's approaching ticket scalping type behavior, which is illegal in many countries.

Morally bankrupt, definitely. Currently legal for people to buy out of region and resell in a more expensive region? Yes, but as you're sticking it to the man keep in mind that eventually those cheaper regions will simply no longer be offered games at low prices, or potentially have them offered at all. Your short term gains will screw many people over in the long term. Act as you will, I guess.

*Disclaimer* I bought 2 games off of G2A years ago, for obscenely low prices, (near release day both times) and was curious why the prices were so low. I stopped after hearing about credit card fraud. Both were Steam keys, neither one got revoked. Origin: "global."

If G2A works out something with Steam/Gog/Origin/Uplay/EGS etc. to resell peoples' game keys they used and no longer want, I'd support them, but good luck with that.
 
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21. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 6, 2019, 21:03 Jerykk
 
roguebanshee wrote on Jul 6, 2019, 05:25:
Jerykk wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 23:25:
Think about it logically: if the majority of keys on G2A were stolen (and therefore inevitably revoked), G2A would go out of business. I'm not saying that there aren't any fraudulent sellers. I'm saying that the vast majority of sellers are legitimate.
G2A benefits just as much as the sellers from allowing keys obtained through credit card fraud to be sold on their service. G2A doesn't suffer any penalities from such keys being revoked at a later date.

And while I don't know if they offer it as a "service" anymore, I did read an article about G2A offering a "Reimbursement for revoked keys"-subscription. From what I can recall of that article (which was more about G2A being shady in general), that subscription was a) pushed hard by G2A and b) really convoluted to unsubscribe from. If G2A were truly confident in the keys being resold via their site, they wouldn't even think to need such a "service". A legit site would offer that for free to everyone.

That is incorrect. If the buyer files a complaint and provides evidence of the revoked key, G2A will refund them. If the majority of keys on G2A are revoked, they lose customer trust and business suffers. So yes, G2A does suffer penalties when the keys they help sell are revoked.

I've purchased 40+ keys from G2A and had 2 revoked. In both cases, I was immediately refunded and didn't need to subscribe to any service. I just filed a ticket, provided a screenshot of the revocation notice and got the refund, no questions asked.

The problem is that 99% of the critics have never actually used G2A and are basing their criticism entirely on hearsay and sensationalist tweets and articles.

Verno wrote on Jul 6, 2019, 19:30:
G2A has not found a secret formula that everyone else somehow missed out on. They are exploiting a shitty loophole that is rapidly closing. A few years from now you're not going to be able to do this anymore, this is all academic anyway. So just enjoy your cheap games while you can and stop trying to convince the rest of us you're doing the industry a solid. We're not "buying" bwaha.

"Shitty loophole." You mean the right of customers to sell products they've legally obtained? Because that's what G2A allows. It's essentially the eBay for game keys. Mike Ross made it very clear that he's offended by unauthorized reselling as a whole (hence his criticism of people selling bundle keys), not just fraudulent purchases. Of course devs and pubs dislike unauthorized reselling. That gives them way less control over pricing. They'd rather have a closed garden than an open market.
 
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20. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 6, 2019, 19:30 Verno
 
Your cognitive dissonance is resonating like a church bell. Yesterday it was regional pricing but after that argument was decimated now its "wut proof?!". There is no proof that would be sufficient because you just want to rationalize your own behavior. You just keep moving the goalposts. Sure, everyone in the industry who has ever said this is just making it up. This is a company that offered a "Game key insurance" product we're talking about here, that's a great foundation your argument stands on. We've been hearing about this for years from indies, developers and both small/large publishers. No one is going to sit around making Excel charts for you so that you can then say "NOOOO NOT THAT PROOF, THE OTHER ONE!".

G2A has not found a secret formula that everyone else somehow missed out on. They are exploiting a shitty loophole that is rapidly closing. A few years from now you're not going to be able to do this anymore, this is all academic anyway. So just enjoy your cheap games while you can and stop trying to convince the rest of us you're doing the industry a solid. We're not "buying" bwaha.
 
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Playing: Subnautica, Total War: Three Kingdoms, Spider-Man
Watching: 30 Rock, Good Omens, Peep Show
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19. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 6, 2019, 12:45 Cutter
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 21:59:
Cutter wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 20:10:
mxmissile wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 19:19:
Mike Rose is just a whiny bitch, seriously, if you give out that many keys, and said keys are able to kill your sales, Mike, YOU are doing it wrong. Get control of your inventory, don't give out keys where G2A can get them. This is all you and your incompetence, stop passing the buck.

Exactly. Those keys aren't stolen so the problem is entirely of his own making. If you have proof of stolen keys and chargebacks, post them or stfu already.

He literally gave a real world example of obvious credit card fraud/money laundering using keys for his game and G2A... what more do you want to see?

Somebody bought 100+ keys off Steam(near full price), and resold them for half price on G2A. Either that person is a saint, or bought them via stolen credit card(s) or for money laundering purposes.

No he didn't. That doesn't prove fuck all. All he's made is a dubious claim with zero actual evidence. If they were stolen and he got chargebacked from the CC provider he can easily provide that proof. No where does he say he never got paid. If people can buy keys cheaper in one place and sell them for more in another that's capitalism, not theft. It's how currency speculators make money. There's NOTHING illegal in that.
 
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"Well, what do you believe in, Wade? I'm guessing shotguns and big titties." - Max
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18. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 6, 2019, 10:57 Beamer
 
Muscular Beaver wrote on Jul 6, 2019, 05:08:
I like that devs explain me how to hurt them most effectively.
Guess I will buy the next Wolfenstein and EA game after all.

Hey, look, you're still crying about the game that lets you hurt Nazis. We can't say you don't stick up for your people. Next, you'll "hurt" any game that doesn't let you verbally abuse children, since you've talked extensively about how that's your biggest hobby. But, in your eyes, you're the only sane one here. The normal, well adjusted one with good outlooks on the world around you.
 
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17. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 6, 2019, 05:25 roguebanshee
 
Jerykk wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 23:25:
Think about it logically: if the majority of keys on G2A were stolen (and therefore inevitably revoked), G2A would go out of business. I'm not saying that there aren't any fraudulent sellers. I'm saying that the vast majority of sellers are legitimate.
G2A benefits just as much as the sellers from allowing keys obtained through credit card fraud to be sold on their service. G2A doesn't suffer any penalities from such keys being revoked at a later date.

And while I don't know if they offer it as a "service" anymore, I did read an article about G2A offering a "Reimbursement for revoked keys"-subscription. From what I can recall of that article (which was more about G2A being shady in general), that subscription was a) pushed hard by G2A and b) really convoluted to unsubscribe from. If G2A were truly confident in the keys being resold via their site, they wouldn't even think to need such a "service". A legit site would offer that for free to everyone.
 
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16. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 6, 2019, 05:08 Muscular Beaver
 
I like that devs explain me how to hurt them most effectively.
Guess I will buy the next Wolfenstein and EA game after all.
 
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Sick of waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
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15. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 6, 2019, 00:03 Acleacius
 
This isn't a DarkWeb site hidden from the public, it's site in some country where credit cards are a major source of economic income and tax revenue. There would be an International Police (CIA, MI5, SDU and FSB, among others) effort to shut this place down if it was haven for stolen credit card, purchase dumps. I don't care what country they were in, all world market countries would send in state police and extradition papers to close it down.

It looks like worst case it could be used for money laundering, but there's no way this dev has any proof if International Police Forces don't have any evidence.
 
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Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language...they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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14. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 5, 2019, 23:37 Mashiki Amiketo
 
People could have just said that this jackass is against the first sale doctrine and be done with it.  
--
"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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13. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 5, 2019, 23:25 Jerykk
 
roguebanshee wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 17:05:
Jerykk wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 16:49:
So he doesn't actually have any proof that the keys sold on G2A were stolen and is simply angry about the unauthorized reselling of keys? Guess what: if people obtain a key by legal means (bundles, giveaways, gifts, etc), they're free to do whatever they want with them. If they buy a batch of keys from a region where they're much cheaper and then resell them globally, that's legal.
One person got 102 keys for a $25 ($22.5 with the launch discount) game they could sell for $13 for a game that was only sold on Steam.

I'm sure that person sold those keys at a total ~$1000 loss purely for the benefit of others. Absolutely no credit card fraud involved.

Resellers generally buy keys in bulk from regions where they are cheapest (Russia, India and South America). Those keys can then be resold globally at a significant discount from MSRP and still be profitable for the seller. It's not uncommon at all. If the keys were purchased using stolen credit cards, then those keys would be revoked as soon as the cards were reported stolen and the charges reversed.

Think about it logically: if the majority of keys on G2A were stolen (and therefore inevitably revoked), G2A would go out of business. I'm not saying that there aren't any fraudulent sellers. I'm saying that the vast majority of sellers are legitimate.

No, Mike Ross isn't limiting his criticism to stolen keys. He's criticizing unauthorized reselling as a whole. He wants to restrict what people can do with keys they've legally obtained.

A quick glance at Steamdb shows that many regions can legally purchase Descenders from Steam for under $10.

This comment was edited on Jul 5, 2019, 23:40.
 
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12. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 5, 2019, 22:39 eRe4s3r
 
roguebanshee wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 17:05:
Jerykk wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 16:49:
So he doesn't actually have any proof that the keys sold on G2A were stolen and is simply angry about the unauthorized reselling of keys? Guess what: if people obtain a key by legal means (bundles, giveaways, gifts, etc), they're free to do whatever they want with them. If they buy a batch of keys from a region where they're much cheaper and then resell them globally, that's legal.
One person got 102 keys for a $25 ($22.5 with the launch discount) game they could sell for $13 for a game that was only sold on Steam.

I'm sure that person sold those keys at a total ~$1000 loss purely for the benefit of others. Absolutely no credit card fraud involved.

[_] You know what the EU2 pricing region is. ^^

Not saying it isn't credit fraud, but as a German I could get Russian keys no problem and then resell them, and that would be legal.

And I wouldn't have to drive all the way to Russia either.

Also if he has a problem with G2A then maybe he shouldn't give out keys.. and to name Humble Bundle and their LINKED STEAM ACCOUNT KEY LINKING makes this entire twitter thread a joke. You do NOT get keys from Humble if the developer doesn't allow it.

Ps.: Also also, the fact credit card fraud is named here makes me physically angry. You know who is responsible for this? The fucking credit card companies who'd rather save on checking costs.
 
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11. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 5, 2019, 21:59 MoreLuckThanSkill
 
Cutter wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 20:10:
mxmissile wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 19:19:
Mike Rose is just a whiny bitch, seriously, if you give out that many keys, and said keys are able to kill your sales, Mike, YOU are doing it wrong. Get control of your inventory, don't give out keys where G2A can get them. This is all you and your incompetence, stop passing the buck.

Exactly. Those keys aren't stolen so the problem is entirely of his own making. If you have proof of stolen keys and chargebacks, post them or stfu already.

He literally gave a real world example of obvious credit card fraud/money laundering using keys for his game and G2A... what more do you want to see?

Somebody bought 100+ keys off Steam(near full price), and resold them for half price on G2A. Either that person is a saint, or bought them via stolen credit card(s) or for money laundering purposes.
 
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10. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 5, 2019, 21:51 panbient
 
Creston wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 20:24:
mxmissile wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 19:19:
Mike Rose is just a whiny bitch, seriously, if you give out that many keys, and said keys are able to kill your sales, Mike, YOU are doing it wrong. Get control of your inventory, don't give out keys where G2A can get them. This is all you and your incompetence, stop passing the buck.

Well, but... if someone buys 100 keys from him with a stolen credit card, then posts them on G2A for $13 bucks, and the credit card company undoes the transaction, how is Mike Rose supposed to fix that or even worse, PREVENT it?

I mean... should he just stop selling keys altogether?

Can you imagine the reaction from the people blaming the developers when their purchases start being put on 3 to 5 day holds to ensure the payment actually goes through?

CONTROL!
 
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9. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 5, 2019, 20:35 Brazor
 
Ideally, yes. Companies should stop selling the keys. Though, in counter-point: what kind and how much collateral damage will occur? How many legit players will be lost, if any.  
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8. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 5, 2019, 20:24 Creston
 
mxmissile wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 19:19:
Mike Rose is just a whiny bitch, seriously, if you give out that many keys, and said keys are able to kill your sales, Mike, YOU are doing it wrong. Get control of your inventory, don't give out keys where G2A can get them. This is all you and your incompetence, stop passing the buck.

Well, but... if someone buys 100 keys from him with a stolen credit card, then posts them on G2A for $13 bucks, and the credit card company undoes the transaction, how is Mike Rose supposed to fix that or even worse, PREVENT it?

I mean... should he just stop selling keys altogether?
 
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7. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 5, 2019, 20:10 Cutter
 
mxmissile wrote on Jul 5, 2019, 19:19:
Mike Rose is just a whiny bitch, seriously, if you give out that many keys, and said keys are able to kill your sales, Mike, YOU are doing it wrong. Get control of your inventory, don't give out keys where G2A can get them. This is all you and your incompetence, stop passing the buck.

Exactly. Those keys aren't stolen so the problem is entirely of his own making. If you have proof of stolen keys and chargebacks, post them or stfu already.
 
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"Well, what do you believe in, Wade? I'm guessing shotguns and big titties." - Max
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6. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 5, 2019, 19:59 Dacote
 
Signed, talk about redonkulous.  
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5. Re: Mike Rose Starts G2A Petition Jul 5, 2019, 19:19 mxmissile
 
Mike Rose is just a whiny bitch, seriously, if you give out that many keys, and said keys are able to kill your sales, Mike, YOU are doing it wrong. Get control of your inventory, don't give out keys where G2A can get them. This is all you and your incompetence, stop passing the buck.  
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