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Out of the Blue

Things are getting real for our plan to move next week. I spent some time yesterday cancelling some services and transferring others to our new address. We also had a visit/walkthrough from the folks buying our house so their children can see what they will come back to after going off to summer camp. They were very nice and excited about it all. We are very happy that they seem to love this place as much as we do, as it feels like we're leaving it in good hands. All this activity is going to impact the site about the next week, so I apologize in advance for any disruptions. The first of these may be later today, as there's a good chance that I'll be unavailable after midday, so it's likely there won't be a late update this evening. I may be wrong about that, but if I'm not, there will be some catch-up posts tomorrow. Either way, I expect things to return to normal by next weekend. Thanks for any patience you can muster for this.

Real Links: Thanks Ant.
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Stories: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World. Thanks RedEye9.
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Science:
Thanks Max
Bizarre skull belongs to 1st known beluga-narwhal hybrid. Things getting freaky under the Arctic.
The Growing Science Behind a Fasting Treatment for Alzheimer's.
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Media: Pass The Salt - Joseph's Longest Machine Ever. Thanks RedEye9.
Snippet: Ants free siblings from spider webs.
Final Trailer: "The Angry Birds Movie 2."
Follow-up: One legacy of Carl Sagan may take flight next week—a working solar sail.
The Funnies: Comics by Jon Baker on Instagram: “Better place! Better place! Better place."

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38 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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38. Re: Out of the Blue Jun 22, 2019, 11:19 SunnyD
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 22, 2019, 10:57:
<Snip>
In any case, I'd argue those that only do good out of fear of repercussion aren't really all that good people. If you have to be told not to be an asshole because a lake of fire is waiting, maybe you're still an asshole?

Is this a good time to point a finger at the Asshole that came up with the lake of fire thing while also giving a failed servant ownership of that and His little project on earth? Cuz that Guy's a dick...

~Finis~
 
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37. Re: Out of the Blue Jun 22, 2019, 10:57 Beamer
 
Most wars in the world have been started by Christians.

And the Democratic Party is the one preaching compassion (relatively), and the most heavily atheist, while the GOP preaches self-preservation and every man for himself, despite being propped up by most Christian organizations.

In any case, I'd argue those that only do good out of fear of repercussion aren't really all that good people. If you have to be told not to be an asshole because a lake of fire is waiting, maybe you're still an asshole?
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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36. Re: Out of the Blue Jun 21, 2019, 23:39 jdreyer
 
Bizarre skull belongs to 1st known beluga-narwhal hybrid. Things getting freaky under the Arctic.

So what scientists are saying is that if a woman and a wolf...

OMG FURRIES ARE REAL!!!1
 
Avatar 22024
 
The land in Minecraft is flat, Minecraft simulates the Earth, ergo the Earth is flat.
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35. Re: Out of the Blue Jun 21, 2019, 23:23 jdreyer
 
Here's a study.

Wisneski and his fellow researchers found that religious and nonreligious people commit similar numbers of moral acts. The same was found to be true for people on both ends of the political spectrum. And regardless of their political or religious leanings, participants were all found to be more likely to report committing, or being the target of, a moral act rather than an immoral act. They were also much more likely to report having heard about immoral acts rather than moral acts.
Emphasis mine. Also, this was interesting:
For example, religious people reported experiencing more intense self-conscious emotions — such as guilt, embarrassment, and disgust — after committing an immoral act than did nonreligious people. Religious people also reported experiencing a greater sense of pride and gratefulness after committing moral deeds than their nonreligious counterparts.
Fascinating that religion magnifies both positive and negative emotions, but doesn't appear to affect behavior.
 
Avatar 22024
 
The land in Minecraft is flat, Minecraft simulates the Earth, ergo the Earth is flat.
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34. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 23:14 RedEye9
 
Sepharo wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 23:09:
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
"A miss is as good as a mile"
But better still "Don’t wash a pig" :)
 
Avatar 58135
 
“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.”
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33. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 23:09 Sepharo
 
Kxmode wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 23:07:
Sepharo wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 23:05:
Nah it's pretty clear what you said.
You don't get to interpret it for us and tell us it didn't mean what it said.
BTW, you're using "no harm no foul" incorrectly.
It's meant for the receiving party to excuse the sending party. You don't excuse yourself from an offense you've caused.

If you want to call a color red, that is clearly orange, that's you.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
 
Avatar 17249
 
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32. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 23:07 Kxmode
 
Sepharo wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 23:05:
Nah it's pretty clear what you said.
You don't get to interpret it for us and tell us it didn't mean what it said.
BTW, you're using "no harm no foul" incorrectly.
It's meant for the receiving party to excuse the sending party. You don't excuse yourself from an offense you've caused.

If you want to call a color red, that is clearly orange, that's you.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 1: Aboard the rebel ship. / Enter C-3PO and R2-D2. / C-3PO: "Now is the summer of our happiness / Made winter by this sudden, fierce attack!" / R2-D2 — Beep beep, Beep, beep, meep, squeak, beep, whee!
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31. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 23:05 Kxmode
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 22:30:
Burrito of Peace wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 21:05:
Wait, wait, wait. So the assertion is that I, as an atheist, lack morals and character, or have lesser amounts thereof, because I do not believe in an unproven invisible sky wizard?

Let me disprove that in a single sentence:

I don't proclaim to be a Christian while rabidly supporting a wannabe tyrant president, concentration camps, kids in cages, and cutting benefits to the poorest and sickest among us.

Before someone says "B...b...but those aren't REAL Christians!" Shove it. You claim the title, you get to own and deal with all the bullshit attached to it.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

That did feel rather Spanish Inquisition-y. I was half expecting a "CONFESS!"
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 1: Aboard the rebel ship. / Enter C-3PO and R2-D2. / C-3PO: "Now is the summer of our happiness / Made winter by this sudden, fierce attack!" / R2-D2 — Beep beep, Beep, beep, meep, squeak, beep, whee!
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30. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 23:05 Sepharo
 
Nah it's pretty clear what you said.
You don't get to interpret it for us and tell us it didn't mean what it said.
BTW, you're using "no harm no foul" incorrectly.
It's meant for the receiving party to excuse the sending party. You don't excuse yourself from an offense you've caused.
 
Avatar 17249
 
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29. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 23:02 Kxmode
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 22:39:
Your comment for context.
Kxmode wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 19:06:
You lean atheist so there may not be as strong a moral reason to return the money or report it.
Zero degrees of separation.


A person tells another something. That person then tells it to another but in a different way. And so on, and so it goes so that by the time it gets to the sixth person, it has mutated into something "complicated." Burrito of Peace and Jivaro's comments are the epitome of a very well-meaning observation getting lost in translation.

So let's stop this "six degrees of separation" nonsense. My follow-up comment at #20 very clearly defines intent. If someone wants to continue to harp on some imaginary "hatred" I have, that's on them. But it has no bearing on the actual point I made, and then clarified.

I like you guys, but sometimes you get bent out of shape over meaningless observations. <3
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 1: Aboard the rebel ship. / Enter C-3PO and R2-D2. / C-3PO: "Now is the summer of our happiness / Made winter by this sudden, fierce attack!" / R2-D2 — Beep beep, Beep, beep, meep, squeak, beep, whee!
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28. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 22:45 Kxmode
 
Jivaro wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 22:37:
I did just now, I was already typing I guess. Good for you to apologize so....convincingly.

I'm not apologizing for the points I'm sharing. I am only apologizing for any misguided feelings that may have developed from not understanding the post. So I hope my follow-up comment resolves what the reader may have construed as being offensive. That is all. No harm or foul.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 1: Aboard the rebel ship. / Enter C-3PO and R2-D2. / C-3PO: "Now is the summer of our happiness / Made winter by this sudden, fierce attack!" / R2-D2 — Beep beep, Beep, beep, meep, squeak, beep, whee!
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27. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 22:45 RedEye9
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 22:30:
Burrito of Peace wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 21:05:
Wait, wait, wait. So the assertion is that I, as an atheist, lack morals and character, or have lesser amounts thereof, because I do not believe in an unproven invisible sky wizard?

Let me disprove that in a single sentence:

I don't proclaim to be a Christian while rabidly supporting a wannabe tyrant president, concentration camps, kids in cages, and cutting benefits to the poorest and sickest among us.

Before someone says "B...b...but those aren't REAL Christians!" Shove it. You claim the title, you get to own and deal with all the bullshit attached to it.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
The Secret Life Of Brian: Documentary on the Monty Python film

 
Avatar 58135
 
“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.”
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26. Re: Out of the Blue Jun 21, 2019, 22:39 Sepharo
 
Jivaro wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 22:37:
I did just now, I was already typing I guess. Good for you to apologize so....convincingly.

"You lean atheist so there may not be as strong a moral reason to return the money."

-a bunch of words about why he didn't say what we think he said-
"Sorry if you were offended"


It's a common cognitive problem among the religious though.
Many can't imagine acting moral without a supernatural reason to do so... which is pretty sad.
And I see that kx recognized some other reasons that one could be moral, but they were presented as alternatives, and he doesn't believe they are equivalent, they're "not as strong".
But it's weird to me that he missed the easiest one: humanity.
It's innate, as are the baser instincts to murder and abuse, but just like our primate cousins, and mammals at large, we're social animals... we get benefits from being nice to each other. It's how we got to where we are... cooperation reciprocity love.
 
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25. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 22:39 RedEye9
 

Your comment for context.
Kxmode wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 19:06:
You lean atheist so there may not be as strong a moral reason to return the money or report it.
Zero degrees of separation.

 
Avatar 58135
 
“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.”
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24. Re: Out of the Blue Jun 21, 2019, 22:37 Jivaro
 
I did just now, I was already typing I guess. Good for you to apologize so....convincingly.  
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23. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 22:35 Kxmode
 
Jivaro wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 22:30:
Kx...that is the most fucked up thing I have ever seen you write and if you are half as fucking moral as you claim to be than you should apologize.

All uppity when people make generalizations about your religeon and the people that follow it but boy..you have a few of your own to dish out don't ya?

Man did I misjudge you. Less morals as an atheist my ass.

Read my follow-up comment and let's stop this six degrees of separation nonsense.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 1: Aboard the rebel ship. / Enter C-3PO and R2-D2. / C-3PO: "Now is the summer of our happiness / Made winter by this sudden, fierce attack!" / R2-D2 — Beep beep, Beep, beep, meep, squeak, beep, whee!
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22. Re: Out of the Blue Jun 21, 2019, 22:30 Jivaro
 
Kx...that is the most fucked up thing I have ever seen you write and if you are half as fucking moral as you claim to be than you should apologize.

All uppity when people make generalizations about your religeon and the people that follow it but boy..you have a few of your own to dish out don't ya?

Man did I misjudged you. Less morals as an atheist my ass. Your explanation just rings really hollow to me.
 
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21. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 22:30 jdreyer
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 21:05:
Wait, wait, wait. So the assertion is that I, as an atheist, lack morals and character, or have lesser amounts thereof, because I do not believe in an unproven invisible sky wizard?

Let me disprove that in a single sentence:

I don't proclaim to be a Christian while rabidly supporting a wannabe tyrant president, concentration camps, kids in cages, and cutting benefits to the poorest and sickest among us.

Before someone says "B...b...but those aren't REAL Christians!" Shove it. You claim the title, you get to own and deal with all the bullshit attached to it.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
 
Avatar 22024
 
The land in Minecraft is flat, Minecraft simulates the Earth, ergo the Earth is flat.
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20. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 22:29 Kxmode
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 21:05:
Wait, wait, wait. So the assertion is that I, as an atheist, lack morals and character, or have lesser amounts thereof, because I do not believe in an unproven invisible sky wizard?

Let me disprove that in a single sentence:

I don't proclaim to be a Christian while rabidly supporting a wannabe tyrant president, concentration camps, kids in cages, and cutting benefits to the poorest and sickest among us.

Before someone says "B...b...but those aren't REAL Christians!" Shove it. You claim the title, you get to own and deal with all the bullshit attached to it.

Let's back up, shall we?

Firstly, about Redeye's comment, I wrote, "You lean atheist so there may not be as strong a moral reason to return the money or report it." That sentence doesn't mean a lack of morals and character, and it is not about every atheist. It's only an observation about Redeye based on what he would do in the particular situation cited.

The quoted part above is another way of saying an environment forms a person's conscience. Conversely, religious people tend to have a more significant moral reason to do something. Like for example, they do not want to displease an "invisible sky wizard" who is watching. If you eliminate that motive (and let's be clear here, for people of faith displeasing their god is a huge reason to do or not do something), then in the absence of faith, other factors have to shape morality. It kind of like when someone losses a sense the other senses are enhanced.

So for some, their morality may be informed by education or the law. For another, virtue may be established by media and entertainment (e.g., the good guy versus evil guy motif). Or for others contemplating others who protest social injustices may foster their moral compass. And the list goes on and on. It's different for each person.

I express that point in my original post. "I think there is a vast composite of regional nuances that affect a person's decision to do the right thing, but broadly speaking I believe wealth, the population, the culture, and lastly religion provides a general foundation." I put "lastly religion" there for all the reasons I make in this post. The bottom line is if the environment did not develop a semblance of morality, we would have chaos and anarchy.

I do apologize if you felt offended by my comment. Hopefully, this follow-up nullifies any ambiguities by my previous comment.

 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 1: Aboard the rebel ship. / Enter C-3PO and R2-D2. / C-3PO: "Now is the summer of our happiness / Made winter by this sudden, fierce attack!" / R2-D2 — Beep beep, Beep, beep, meep, squeak, beep, whee!
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19. Re: Researchers Dropped 17,000 Wallets To Test Honesty In Countries Around The World Jun 21, 2019, 22:27 Sepharo
 
Kxmode wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 22:02:
RedEye9 wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 19:32:
Sepharo wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 19:22:
Ah yes, the immoral atheist meme
bless you Sepharo.

We are all atheists with respect to other religions, and we atheists just take it one step further.
I just believe in one fewer god than you do. Grin

Your comment for context.

RedEye9 wrote on Jun 21, 2019, 17:46:
Here's my take. </=$400 gets returned, >/=$40,000 finders keepers.
In-between is if I think someone's watching.
My sister is an administrative assistant for a police department.
A person turned in a paper bag they found along the railroad tracks that had $28k. I would have ate a steak and invested in gamestop if that'd been me.

Most people with a religious background tend to rely on a moral compass that is guided by conscience, and depending on the situation would do the right thing. However, your comment above shows the opposite outcome. A binary condition drives your conscience, which is likely the result of where you live, who you socialize with, and how much wealth you have.

Just an observation.

History/reality shows that how moral one is has jack shit to do with one's religion.
Personally I've found the opposite, the atheists I know tend to be the ones that follow the "golden rule" and the religious the "I got mine".
 
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