Op Ed

VICE - Games Have Always Tried to Whitewash Nazis as Just 'German Soldiers'.
"The issues with responsibly depicting German combat forces in World War 2, and their connections to Nazi crimes against humanity, are well-known at this point and have been a point of increasing discussion and debate among historical hobby gamers for years. EA’s flagship shooter might be on the cutting edge of mainstream video gaming, but its naive politics are years behind the state of historical research. The argument that a character fought bravely and heroically for Germany, but not the Nazis, isn’t just naive, but it’s one that was aggressively promulgated by German war criminals themselves."

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16.
 
Re: Op Ed - Nazi Whitewash
Jun 21, 2019, 06:50
16.
Re: Op Ed - Nazi Whitewash Jun 21, 2019, 06:50
Jun 21, 2019, 06:50
 
The author does come across as your typical SJW but, I think it is true too many games trivialize Nazis and make them interchangeable from generic enemy mobs.

The only WWII games I have played that make any attempt to portray the nature of Nazis is the Wolfenstein series (lots of mad evil Nazi scientists) and Sniper Elite 4 (lining Bitani villagers up and shooting them).

Using Nazis as generic bad guys with no indication in the presentation of what it is about them than makes them despicable is just lazy and trivializes history.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! - HT
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15.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 20:55
15.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 20:55
Jun 20, 2019, 20:55
 
1. As someone mentioned, you can't sell your game in Germany if you include the swastika.

2. In MP games, no one wants to play as a Nazi, but people don't mind playing as Germany.

3. Most of the Wehrmacht weren't Nazi party members, although the leadership certainly were.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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14.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 16:26
14.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 16:26
Jun 20, 2019, 16:26
 
NKD wrote on Jun 20, 2019, 15:16:
If you care so much about US war crimes Beaver, why do you only talk about them when someone insults your precious Third Reich?

See now that's an insult.
I don't think MB considers the Third Reich a good thing "or precious".

But it's a factual observation to point out that he will almost always show up to these threads and bemoan the Nazi <-> German conflations and usually with whataboutisms.
To be clear, I don't have anything against the German people and it is unfair to contemporarily make that German=Nazi connection. But it's a real part of the past, and the German people of the 30s and 40s were a part of that. The current Germans recognize that and have some of the strictest laws around not glorifying that past. I haven't read the article but I do agree that games shouldn't whitewash history and that they should probably strive to include material that makes clear what a vile era it was... but you can read Beamer's 2nd post here as to why that's difficult to do.
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13.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 15:47
13.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 15:47
Jun 20, 2019, 15:47
 
reading this made my brain bleed. I am not even sure what the author wants... other then EA=BAD
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12.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 15:16
NKD
12.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 15:16
Jun 20, 2019, 15:16
NKD
 
If you care so much about US war crimes Beaver, why do you only talk about them when someone insults your precious Third Reich?
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
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11.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 15:06
11.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 15:06
Jun 20, 2019, 15:06
 
Desalus wrote on Jun 20, 2019, 13:35:
So what is the author's solution? Every WWII game set in the Western theater now needs a mission where, as an allied soldier, you discover a concentration camp? Or perhaps every German soldier you play needs to have an inner dialogue about how they feel terrible fighting for the Nazi cause? Perhaps the author desires something akin to the Call of Duty airport mission where you play as a German soldier exterminating an entire village. At what point do you demonstrate the culpability of every German soldier?

I can understand the viewpoint of the author, but to expect every WWII game to explore the dark side of the Wehrmacht would be hamfisted and forced. EA never claimed BFV was historically accurate and everyone knows this. Games, first and foremost, are meant to be fun to play. Most are not designed for deep storytelling and the exploration of the darker side of humanity.

I didn't see them even suggest a solution, other than simply portraying Nazis in WW2 games as soulless, identical, non-personified, character-less, robots. Doing anything else would be injecting humanity into them, which could stoke sympathy or empathy, which is bad.

Maybe the point of the article was to draw attention to this fundamental paradox in our WW2 games. We can't make them "cool" because then we're empathizing with them. If they aren't "cool" then they aren't fun to play -- who wants to play, in a multiplayer game, the bad guys who are soulless, identical, essentially just cannon fodder, without personalization?
10.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 13:55
10.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 13:55
Jun 20, 2019, 13:55
 
"insults" in this case is the observation that "nazis in media" is a topic you'll respond to predictably every time
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9.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 13:53
9.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 13:53
Jun 20, 2019, 13:53
 
Nazis are bad mmmkay...

Every German Soldier during world war 2 ask this at some point

But you're trying to make a world war 2 game... you can't really make it without NAZIs.. And you can't really call them Nazis without people getting upset so.. Please shut up VICE mmmkay?

Here's your weird story of the day about WW2 Franz Stigler.
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8.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 13:36
8.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 13:36
Jun 20, 2019, 13:36
 
panbient wrote on Jun 20, 2019, 13:15:
Muscular Beaver wrote on Jun 20, 2019, 12:15:
Point me to the games that depict the war crimes of the USA in Iraq

Spec Ops The Line - while not overly preachy or political definitely touches on the concept.

So still not as many as ones critical of Nazi Germany.
Might take a while to include all the other wars then.

And to the other self-righteous hypocrites here, who only have insults and nothing else to offer: The USA is here and now. It hasnt changed much. Syria, Yemen, Libya, Ukraine, all very recent examples of international law violations/war crimes with hundreds of thousands of dead people.
Nazi Germany however is long dead. When did it kill its last victim?
Nice try downplaying millions of dead, that are still actively getting killed and pretty much NOT being talked about, not even outside of games.
I have given up on waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
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7.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 13:35
7.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 13:35
Jun 20, 2019, 13:35
 
So what is the author's solution? Every WWII game set in the Western theater now needs a mission where, as an allied soldier, you discover a concentration camp? Or perhaps every German soldier you play needs to have an inner dialogue about how they feel terrible fighting for the Nazi cause? Perhaps the author desires something akin to the Call of Duty airport mission where you play as a German soldier exterminating an entire village. At what point do you demonstrate the culpability of every German soldier?

I can understand the viewpoint of the author, but to expect every WWII game to explore the dark side of the Wehrmacht would be hamfisted and forced. EA never claimed BFV was historically accurate and everyone knows this. Games, first and foremost, are meant to be fun to play. Most are not designed for deep storytelling and the exploration of the darker side of humanity.
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6.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 13:33
6.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 13:33
Jun 20, 2019, 13:33
 
What's fun is that the alt-right was furious when BV didn't have Nazis in the game (even though no Battlefield has had Nazis), and now some of those same people are angry at this article.

Personally, I think it's dumb on both sides. We don't have Nazis in many games for a few reasons. Part of it is that you need to do heavy localization to remove Nazis for the German market. Part of it is that, in multiplayer games, few people want to play as Nazis, and even fewer people want to play with people that want to play as Nazis.

Most games are supposed to be fun. Killing Nazis is fun (see: most of the Wolfenstein games), but in many games having the baggage that comes with Nazis makes everything less fun. It works for mindless slaughter (see: most of the Wolfenstein games) but is less fun with any form of realism.
5.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 13:15
5.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 13:15
Jun 20, 2019, 13:15
 
Muscular Beaver wrote on Jun 20, 2019, 12:15:
Point me to the games that depict the war crimes of the USA in Iraq

Spec Ops The Line - while not overly preachy or political definitely touches on the concept.
4.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 13:14
4.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 13:14
Jun 20, 2019, 13:14
 
Beamer wrote on Jun 20, 2019, 12:29:
Muscular Beaver wrote on Jun 20, 2019, 12:15:
Good thing they dont allow comments.
What absolute fascist propaganda.
Point me to the games that depict the war crimes of the USA in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc, etc...
Yeah...
McDonaldsstein: New Big Mac

Yup, any mention of "Nazis" in a negative manner is absolutely the Muscular Beaver Signal.
Dog Beaver Whistle.
"I expect death to be nothingness and by removing from me all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." Isaac Asimov
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3.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 13:01
3.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 13:01
Jun 20, 2019, 13:01
 
Muscular Beaver wrote on Jun 20, 2019, 12:15:
Drivel

You can discuss a topic without saying "what about..."
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains” -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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2.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 12:29
2.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 12:29
Jun 20, 2019, 12:29
 
Muscular Beaver wrote on Jun 20, 2019, 12:15:
Good thing they dont allow comments.
What absolute fascist propaganda.
Point me to the games that depict the war crimes of the USA in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc, etc...
Yeah...
McDonaldsstein: New Big Mac

Yup, any mention of "Nazis" in a negative manner is absolutely the Muscular Beaver Signal.
1.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jun 20, 2019, 12:15
1.
Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2019, 12:15
Jun 20, 2019, 12:15
 
Good thing they dont allow comments.
What absolute fascist propaganda.
Point me to the games that depict the war crimes of the USA in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc, etc...
Yeah...
McDonaldsstein: New Big Mac
I have given up on waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
Avatar 12928
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