Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2019, 16:28:
1) Funny that you bring up JK Rowling. Is she a 10 year old boy? No? then she wrote outside her perspective. Didn't seem hard for her to do so

And ignoring the reason I brought her up I see. *slow clap*

She is constantly changing characters in her story or even adding backstory when there was none... after the books were published. Why? Because it wasn't diverse enough to her after the fact it became a public phenomenon & after people started to obviously point it out to her.

Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2019, 16:28:
2) Yes, most don't put the weight or importance on sex or race. Because most are white. Do you know why people make fun of white as default? Because us white people just take it for granted and only notice when it's different. Generally, non-white non-males always notice.

No. Because most gamers actually do not care... at all.

If someone is actively looking for sexism or racism in games... they will find it regardless of whether it was there or not in the first place. And people like Anita Sarkeesian who profiteer off controversy due to their own confirmation bias will never be satisfied regardless of any evidence presented to the contrary.

But you keep on grasping at those straws.

Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2019, 16:28:
3) You say Anita is trying to be offended. I think that you're trying to be offended. Her list is pretty simple, but here you are, all kinds of angry about it.

Angry? No. I was brought into this thread because of your weak analogy that falls flat & the off-the-cuff comment to Tipsy McStagger about his "If you don't like it, don't complain.. make the fucking change yourself." not being a good response. Which it is, I have pointed out several reasons on why, & so far you keep avoiding.

You keep doing this game of running around until you're blue in the face as it were & strawmanning. Pointing out this should be that, there is not enough of that, or that one must be angry for replying (which is a very weak & shallow response to begin with) until doomsday all you want.

Nidian wrote on Jun 17, 2019, 15:36:

Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2019, 08:20:

Nidian wrote on Jun 17, 2019, 01:05:

Beamer wrote on Jun 16, 2019, 10:09:
Fact 1: what sarkeesian does us extremely common in every other form of art or entertainment, but only gamers find it offensive

Fact 2: there are very few strong female characters in games

I'll never understand why that's controversial to say, but it probably ties into fact 1. Somehow criticizing one part of games is an all out attack on all things games and gamers to some of you.

Fact 1 Correction: Only recently within the last few decades have people gotten an avenue to vent their frustrations in a public way that reaches far & wide like the internet. And games happen to be one of the biggest entertainment mediums on the planet right now overshadowing all others in comparison. So what you're trying to do is basically compare apples to oranges here.

Fact 2 response: Like it was pointed out earlier... most writers or developers can only create based on their own perspective. This is why so many people say "if you don't like it... go out & make a game yourself" because that is the only answer worth giving to those whose only complaints about fictional game characters &/or games blindly revolve around pulling the sex or race card.

I don't understand your Fact 1, which I suppose should be 3. How does it relate? Anita isn't a regular person, she's an academic media critic, which means she'd still have a platform with wide reach. That you now pay way more attention to her is kind of meaningless, that's on you. Not many others do. And that games is big is also meaningless - part of what makes them big is mobile, and she's not really criticizing mobile. You're adding way more importance to games, and putting them on a pedestal, because you personally like them. Again, this exact type of criticism was happening to movies in the 50s and earlier. No one was sending death threats then.

Your Fact 2, henceforth Fact 4, is funny. "These people are creatively simple, so they can't do any better!" If you can't write outside your own experiences, maybe you shouldn't be paid well to be a writer? And it isn't hard to simply add characters of some variety.

I just don't know why saying "hey, it would be nice if the demographics of our protagonists was closer to the demographics of our population" is "playing the sex or race card." Doesn't that feel weasely to you? And why is asking for better representation of our population so offensive and vulgar to you?

If you're going to strawman... don't waste my time.

One, what is the biggest difference between the 1950's & today? It's not hard & it was in my response to your fact 1. People... have... the... internet. It make's it easier to talk or complain to other people on a global scale. Also, if you wish to compare the demographics of gamers compared to other entertainment mediums... know that, right now, you are comparing little numbers to giant ones. As a result... discrepancies between them will be numerous. There has always been people in other entertainment mediums that find offense when their favorite past time is being attacked. The difference is numbers... & the internet.

Two, most gamers, that I have met, don't put weight or importance on the sex or race of the main character. It doesn't even register unless one of two criteria have been met first with any game. Is the storyline well written... or... is the gameplay fun. The only people that actually complain about these issues are the ones that are actively looking to be offended (i.e. Anita Sarkeesian).

And if you want to ignore writers being simple. That's your own ignorance... I could bring up a plethora of authors who are. People like Tolkien & such. But I'll go even further on this... let's look at J. K. Rowling for a moment. In the Harry Potter books, she only started adding diversity & changing things after her books were published. The books make no mention or even hint at anything she insinuates currently. So why the strong need to bring these insinuations up now? Because the books were written from her original perspective which was too simplistic from her current viewpoint. Since she wrote the books, she can make whatever changes she wants to them. But it does make her look extremely shallow.

1) Funny that you bring up JK Rowling. Is she a 10 year old boy? No? then she wrote outside her perspective. Didn't seem hard for her to do so

2) Yes, most don't put the weight or importance on sex or race. Because most are white. Do you know why people make fun of white as default? Because us white people just take it for granted and only notice when it's different. Generally, non-white non-males always notice.

3) You say Anita is trying to be offended. I think that you're trying to be offended. Her list is pretty simple, but here you are, all kinds of angry about it.

Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2019, 08:20:

Nidian wrote on Jun 17, 2019, 01:05:

Beamer wrote on Jun 16, 2019, 10:09:
Fact 1: what sarkeesian does us extremely common in every other form of art or entertainment, but only gamers find it offensive

Fact 2: there are very few strong female characters in games

I'll never understand why that's controversial to say, but it probably ties into fact 1. Somehow criticizing one part of games is an all out attack on all things games and gamers to some of you.

Fact 1 Correction: Only recently within the last few decades have people gotten an avenue to vent their frustrations in a public way that reaches far & wide like the internet. And games happen to be one of the biggest entertainment mediums on the planet right now overshadowing all others in comparison. So what you're trying to do is basically compare apples to oranges here.

Fact 2 response: Like it was pointed out earlier... most writers or developers can only create based on their own perspective. This is why so many people say "if you don't like it... go out & make a game yourself" because that is the only answer worth giving to those whose only complaints about fictional game characters &/or games blindly revolve around pulling the sex or race card.

I don't understand your Fact 1, which I suppose should be 3. How does it relate? Anita isn't a regular person, she's an academic media critic, which means she'd still have a platform with wide reach. That you now pay way more attention to her is kind of meaningless, that's on you. Not many others do. And that games is big is also meaningless - part of what makes them big is mobile, and she's not really criticizing mobile. You're adding way more importance to games, and putting them on a pedestal, because you personally like them. Again, this exact type of criticism was happening to movies in the 50s and earlier. No one was sending death threats then.

Your Fact 2, henceforth Fact 4, is funny. "These people are creatively simple, so they can't do any better!" If you can't write outside your own experiences, maybe you shouldn't be paid well to be a writer? And it isn't hard to simply add characters of some variety.

I just don't know why saying "hey, it would be nice if the demographics of our protagonists was closer to the demographics of our population" is "playing the sex or race card." Doesn't that feel weasely to you? And why is asking for better representation of our population so offensive and vulgar to you?

If you're going to strawman... don't waste my time.

One, what is the biggest difference between the 1950's & today? It's not hard & it was in my response to your fact 1. People... have... the... internet. It make's it easier to talk or complain to other people on a global scale. Also, if you wish to compare the demographics of gamers compared to other entertainment mediums... know that, right now, you are comparing little numbers to giant ones. As a result... discrepancies between them will be numerous. There has always been people in other entertainment mediums that find offense when their favorite past time is being attacked. The difference is numbers... & the internet.

Two, most gamers, that I have met, don't put weight or importance on the sex or race of the main character. It doesn't even register unless one of two criteria have been met first with any game. Is the storyline well written... or... is the gameplay fun. The only people that actually complain about these issues are the ones that are actively looking to be offended (i.e. Anita Sarkeesian).

And if you want to ignore writers being simple. That's your own ignorance... I could bring up a plethora of authors who are. People like Tolkien & such. But I'll go even further on this... let's look at J. K. Rowling for a moment. In the Harry Potter books, she only started adding diversity & changing things after her books were published. The books make no mention or even hint at anything she insinuates currently. So why the strong need to bring these insinuations up now? Because the books were written from her original perspective which was too simplistic from her current viewpoint. Since she wrote the books, she can make whatever changes she wants to them. But it does make her look extremely shallow.

Beamer wrote on Jun 17, 2019, 08:20:

I just don't know why saying "hey, it would be nice if the demographics of our protagonists was closer to the demographics of our population" is "playing the sex or race card." Doesn't that feel weasely to you? And why is asking for better representation of our population so offensive and vulgar to you?

Huh you know what's weird? Stephen King is as white and straight male as they come and he has had several black protagonists in his works over the years. How do you suppose he pulled that off. Magic?

Brandon Sanderson is as white and male as ever and his main character for the Mistborn saga was a teen-aged girl.

The difference is they cared enough to do research about the experience outside their own circle and admit that the world was a bigger place than their own heads. Why do game makers get a pass? What is so special about what they do versus the other media makers?

Nidian wrote on Jun 17, 2019, 01:05:

Beamer wrote on Jun 16, 2019, 10:09:
Fact 1: what sarkeesian does us extremely common in every other form of art or entertainment, but only gamers find it offensive

Fact 2: there are very few strong female characters in games

I'll never understand why that's controversial to say, but it probably ties into fact 1. Somehow criticizing one part of games is an all out attack on all things games and gamers to some of you.

Fact 1 Correction: Only recently within the last few decades have people gotten an avenue to vent their frustrations in a public way that reaches far & wide like the internet. And games happen to be one of the biggest entertainment mediums on the planet right now overshadowing all others in comparison. So what you're trying to do is basically compare apples to oranges here.

Fact 2 response: Like it was pointed out earlier... most writers or developers can only create based on their own perspective. This is why so many people say "if you don't like it... go out & make a game yourself" because that is the only answer worth giving to those whose only complaints about fictional game characters &/or games blindly revolve around pulling the sex or race card.

I don't understand your Fact 1, which I suppose should be 3. How does it relate? Anita isn't a regular person, she's an academic media critic, which means she'd still have a platform with wide reach. That you now pay way more attention to her is kind of meaningless, that's on you. Not many others do. And that games is big is also meaningless - part of what makes them big is mobile, and she's not really criticizing mobile. You're adding way more importance to games, and putting them on a pedestal, because you personally like them. Again, this exact type of criticism was happening to movies in the 50s and earlier. No one was sending death threats then.

Your Fact 2, henceforth Fact 4, is funny. "These people are creatively simple, so they can't do any better!" If you can't write outside your own experiences, maybe you shouldn't be paid well to be a writer? And it isn't hard to simply add characters of some variety.

I just don't know why saying "hey, it would be nice if the demographics of our protagonists was closer to the demographics of our population" is "playing the sex or race card." Doesn't that feel weasely to you? And why is asking for better representation of our population so offensive and vulgar to you?

Beamer wrote on Jun 16, 2019, 10:09:
Fact 1: what sarkeesian does us extremely common in every other form of art or entertainment, but only gamers find it offensive

Fact 2: there are very few strong female characters in games

I'll never understand why that's controversial to say, but it probably ties into fact 1. Somehow criticizing one part of games is an all out attack on all things games and gamers to some of you.

Fact 1 Correction: Only recently within the last few decades have people gotten an avenue to vent their frustrations in a public way that reaches far & wide like the internet. And games happen to be one of the biggest entertainment mediums on the planet right now overshadowing all others in comparison. So what you're trying to do is basically compare apples to oranges here.

Fact 2 response: Like it was pointed out earlier... most writers or developers can only create based on their own perspective. This is why so many people say "if you don't like it... go out & make a game yourself" because that is the only answer worth giving to those whose only complaints about fictional game characters &/or games blindly revolve around pulling the sex or race card.

HorrorScope wrote on Jun 16, 2019, 16:50:
If you use uBlock Origins and you should, go to page, click on uBlock, bottom right "Disable Javascript", refresh and fixed going forward. Or get a javascript blocking addon.

+1

Caslon wrote on Jun 15, 2019, 17:35:
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If you use uBlock Origins and you should, go to page, click on uBlock, bottom right "Disable Javascript", refresh and fixed going forward. Or get a javascript blocking addon.

Beamer wrote on Jun 16, 2019, 10:09:
Fact 1: what sarkeesian does us extremely common in every other form of art or entertainment, but only gamers find it offensive

Fact 2: there are very few strong female characters in games

I'll never understand why that's controversial to say, but it probably ties into fact 1. Somehow criticizing one part of games is an all out attack on all things games and gamers to some of you.

I'll follow that up by saying that there aren't very many main black characters in games either aside from the ones that you can make yourself.

The classic comeback for that is always that it doesn't matter if the character is black or white. And I agree, if you're white it doesn't matter at all because it will always be the default.

Nidian wrote on Jun 16, 2019, 02:14:

Beamer wrote on Jun 15, 2019, 22:44:

Tipsy McStagger wrote on Jun 15, 2019, 21:19:
Gender breakdown of games featured at E3...

How is this a thing? If you don't like the characters in a game, make your own. It's not like game developers are getting together and saying "we need the most toxic masculinity in this game". Most of these guys are making characters that they think are cool and such from everything they have learned in life.

If you don't like it, don't complain.. make the fucking change yourself.

when people do make their own game, the people that complain about lists like this either complain that they're sjws or that they're being held hostage by sjws.

Nothing wrong with people wanting more characters that look like them. And "make your own" is a bad take. I dislike our presidency, should I stop complaining and make my own country?

You do realize those two don't really correlate that well? If you wanted to make a proper analogy you could've said something like... "if you don't like the Presidency, shut up & run for office yourself. If you can't run for the highest office... run for or help out at you local office."

Any damn fool can sit around & complain about games/movies/books/*insert entertainment medium of your choice here*. And Anita Sarkeesian is the perfect example of a fool given a soapbox to stand on. Thinking any of this makes any difference to anyone outside her own circle of zealots.

In this day and age... there are numerous tools at people's disposal that are easy to use & can help anyone to actually make some sort of a break into the games industry (from RPGMaker to Ren'Py & so on). And if you're not sure about something... go on youtube a do a search because, no doubt, somebody has probably made a tutorial video about it. Don't like any of the cars on the road? Take up Automotive classes & build your own ratrod. Don't like any of books currently being published? Grab a pencil & write your own damn story.

It is so easy for people on the outside to complain about the ones on the inside without doing any of the legwork or jumping over any of the hurdles the people on the inside had to do or go through just to get to the point in which they are at. Here's a shocker: It's actually hard to stop complaining... do the legwork... & make a game themselves. And as we all can see... most just choose the easy road as they're lazy &/or too incompetent to try.

Sorry but "make your own" is actually a great take. Don't like the games out there? Make your own & let the market decide whether it flourishes or flounders. Because all these developers out there had to learn this the hard way... by actually doing all the legwork & jumping every hurdle themselves.

Fact 1: what sarkeesian does us extremely common in every other form of art or entertainment, but only gamers find it offensive

Fact 2: there are very few strong female characters in games

I'll never understand why that's controversial to say, but it probably ties into fact 1. Somehow criticizing one part of games is an all out attack on all things games and gamers to some of you.

Beamer wrote on Jun 15, 2019, 22:44:

Tipsy McStagger wrote on Jun 15, 2019, 21:19:
Gender breakdown of games featured at E3...

How is this a thing? If you don't like the characters in a game, make your own. It's not like game developers are getting together and saying "we need the most toxic masculinity in this game". Most of these guys are making characters that they think are cool and such from everything they have learned in life.

If you don't like it, don't complain.. make the fucking change yourself.

when people do make their own game, the people that complain about lists like this either complain that they're sjws or that they're being held hostage by sjws.

Nothing wrong with people wanting more characters that look like them. And "make your own" is a bad take. I dislike our presidency, should I stop complaining and make my own country?

You do realize those two don't really correlate that well? If you wanted to make a proper analogy you could've said something like... "if you don't like the Presidency, shut up & run for office yourself. If you can't run for the highest office... run for or help out at you local office."

Any damn fool can sit around & complain about games/movies/books/*insert entertainment medium of your choice here*. And Anita Sarkeesian is the perfect example of a fool given a soapbox to stand on. Thinking any of this makes any difference to anyone outside her own circle of zealots.

In this day and age... there are numerous tools at people's disposal that are easy to use & can help anyone to actually make some sort of a break into the games industry (from RPGMaker to Ren'Py & so on). And if you're not sure about something... go on youtube a do a search because, no doubt, somebody has probably made a tutorial video about it. Don't like any of the cars on the road? Take up Automotive classes & build your own ratrod. Don't like any of books currently being published? Grab a pencil & write your own damn story.

It is so easy for people on the outside to complain about the ones on the inside without doing any of the legwork or jumping over any of the hurdles the people on the inside had to do or go through just to get to the point in which they are at. Here's a shocker: It's actually hard to stop complaining... do the legwork... & make a game themselves. And as we all can see... most just choose the easy road as they're lazy &/or too incompetent to try.

Sorry but "make your own" is actually a great take. Don't like the games out there? Make your own & let the market decide whether it flourishes or flounders. Because all these developers out there had to learn this the hard way... by actually doing all the legwork & jumping every hurdle themselves.

Tipsy McStagger wrote on Jun 15, 2019, 21:19:
Gender breakdown of games featured at E3...

How is this a thing? If you don't like the characters in a game, make your own. It's not like game developers are getting together and saying "we need the most toxic masculinity in this game". Most of these guys are making characters that they think are cool and such from everything they have learned in life.

If you don't like it, don't complain.. make the fucking change yourself.

when people do make their own game, the people that complain about lists like this either complain that they're sjws or that they're being held hostage by sjws.

Nothing wrong with people wanting more characters that look like them. And "make your own" is a bad take. I dislike our presidency, should I stop complaining and make my own country?

Gender breakdown of games featured at E3...

How is this a thing? If you don't like the characters in a game, make your own. It's not like game developers are getting together and saying "we need the most toxic masculinity in this game". Most of these guys are making characters that they think are cool and such from everything they have learned in life.

If you don't like it, don't complain.. make the fucking change yourself.

Caslon wrote on Jun 15, 2019, 17:35:
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