PHJF wrote on Apr 27, 2019, 08:50:
Because developers choose Steam to distribute their game. You seem to miss the part where Epic essentially bribes developers into not selling their games on Steam, because what the hell else could you call handing them a big fat sack of cash explicitly for that end? They aren't "funding development" because Phoenix Point is mostly done. And they pulled the same shit with Metro, a game that was legitimately finished and shipped before they bribed them to pull it from Steam.

There's been a lot of competitors to Steam and none have made a lot of ground for a myriad of reasons, but one of those reasons isn't that Valve paid off developers to keep their games off competing platforms.

Because that's a shit thing to do. Obviously.

Obviously. I haven't seen anyone address the fact that if Epic really cared, it could simply stick to its lower revenue percentage. It doesn't need to offer a sack of cash with the strings of "don't sell the game anywhere else!". That aspect of this is totally unnecessary.

And it isn't about Steamworks or DRM. Plenty of games not using any Steam-exclusive features are distributed solely through Steam.

Because developers choose Steam to distribute their game. You seem to miss the part where Epic essentially bribes developers into not selling their games on Steam, because what the hell else could you call handing them a big fat sack of cash explicitly for that end? They aren't "funding development" because Phoenix Point is mostly done. And they pulled the same shit with Metro, a game that was legitimately finished and shipped before they bribed them to pull it from Steam.

There's been a lot of competitors to Steam and none have made a lot of ground for a myriad of reasons, but one of those reasons isn't that Valve paid off developers to keep their games off competing platforms.

Because that's a shit thing to do. Obviously.

jdreyer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 17:53:
What is good for the consumer is having more entrants in the market. It's arguable that EGS would survive to be an entrant without these tactics. GoG for example, has been around for more than a decade, is still a tiny fraction of the market, and would arguably be out of business if not for the other successes of CDPR.

To me the idea that they "need" to do this to compete is ridiculous and your example doesn't serve to illustrate your point. Epic is a huge player with a lot of resources and relationships. They could've easily had all of these same titles without exclusivity bux. They could've spent more than 6 months developing their client so its featureset was more competitive. And so on. GOG on the other hand is a storefront that serves a specific niche, one that conflicts with most of the other major publishers in the market offering newer titles. Put more simply, GOG is not used more because the industry does not trust it to offer newer titles due to its lack of a DRM structure. Having more entrants also means nothing when one prevents all of the others from selling products which is precisely what people are pointing out here. Even at its worst, Steam still allows third parties to sell offerings from its storefront on their own.

And circling back to the original point you quoted, it is not beneficial to the consumer which is what people are upset about. I can maybe buy an argument that it will be beneficial for publishers and developers (though most of those arguments are based on murky Sweeney math/PR) but this has zero benefit to gamers and that's why people are chiming in. And the idea that whats good for them will be good for us is trickle down economics, something I've seen you reject numerous times

What's more surprising is the number of people continually popping up trying to defend it, some of them the same ones who find fault with console exclusives even. Though I see a few who are obviously just trolling others and stirring the pot with immature comments. And sure there are people here being over the top about it but that's because the slow boil gets the frog every time in the gaming industry. People have learned you have to object loudly and often when these sorts of things crop up.

Also in case anyone doesn't have encyclopedic knowledge of my previous posts... I'm not boycotting EGS or anything. I'll still buy games from there if that's the only place I can get something that I want after considering the factors. Probably going to be getting Detroit: Become Human from there when that releases. Already got and played a ton of the free Subnautica. I'm mostly involved in these convos because the false equivalencies and hyperbole is killing me inside to read.

Yeah, I have nothing against Epic Games, they make a great engine after all. It's just their tactics and PR here have really sucked so obviously I'm not going to reward them for that.

This comment was edited on Apr 27, 2019, 07:44.

Christ kids, people have the right to be mad at epic games? When everyone accepted steam drm when it was forced into half-life it was game over, the fact that steam even exists meant we were screwed.

The internet gave super powers to game companies to rob software from the point of production.

RedEye9 wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 19:01:

Sepharo wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 18:46:

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 18:41:
And it isn't about Steamworks or DRM.

No shit it isn't. You're the one that brought that into the conversation and said it was the "exact same" thing.

People have a right to be mad about Epic paying to make games exclusive to their store. They're not calling it the end of the world, they're just saying they're mad. And some of them are saying they won't support Epic and that they believe it's anti-consumer (it is).

Then blame the developers and publishers for accepting the money.
It could be worse, Apple and ATT had a 5 year exclusive lock on iPhone's.

I didn't mean to imply that they are without fault.

Also in case anyone doesn't have encyclopedic knowledge of my previous posts... I'm not boycotting EGS or anything. I'll still buy games from there if that's the only place I can get something that I want after considering the factors. Probably going to be getting Detroit: Become Human from there when that releases. Already got and played a ton of the free Subnautica. I'm mostly involved in these convos because the false equivalencies and hyperbole is killing me inside to read.

Sepharo wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 18:46:

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 18:41:
And it isn't about Steamworks or DRM.

No shit it isn't. You're the one that brought that into the conversation and said it was the "exact same" thing.

People have a right to be mad about Epic paying to make games exclusive to their store. They're not calling it the end of the world, they're just saying they're mad. And some of them are saying they won't support Epic and that they believe it's anti-consumer (it is).

Then blame the developers and publishers for accepting the money.
It could be worse, Apple and ATT had a 5 year exclusive lock on iPhone's.

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 18:41:
And it isn't about Steamworks or DRM.

No shit it isn't. You're the one that brought that into the conversation and said it was the "exact same" thing.

People have a right to be mad about Epic paying to make games exclusive to their store. They're not calling it the end of the world, they're just saying they're mad. And some of them are saying they won't support Epic and that they believe it's anti-consumer (it is).

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 18:33:

Sepharo wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 13:07:

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 08:55:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 19:15:

Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 18:46:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 18:12:

Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 16:14:
Any game using Steamworks is a Steam exclusive. You can buy it elsewhere, but you're locked into Steam as a distribution model. Plenty of other games are also locked into Steam, if unofficially - there are literally tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of games only available via Steam.

That argument is NOT a valid comparison of the type of exclusivity we're talking about and you know it. Please don't grasp.

Functionally, it is. The result is there's only one service for you to use. You're just caught up in who is at fault, but the result is the same, so I couldn't be bothered to endlessly complain about it.

I "functionally" rejected your comparison as invalid.

But you're wrong.
If I'm trapped in my room because someone is forcing me in there, or because someone got too drunk and fell unconscious, blocking my door and me inside, I'm still stuck in my room. In one case, someone did it intentionally, in the other case, it's just how things happened, but I'm still stuck inside.

I never had a choice other than Steam. Now I do, for some games. For other games, I still don't. For yet more games, I can't choose Steam, because there's EGS. Hell, there hasn't even been a single EGS game I'd want to play, and by the time there is, this whole thing will likely be over, but functionally, I've been forced to use Steam many, many, many times.

Please stop being dumb. You know there's an obvious difference between paying to take a game exclusive (in where it can be sold) and a developer using Steamworks as a platform for cloud services, DRM, worskhop etc. and still selling the game in multiple stores. You dont need a dumb analogy for that distinction.

Yes, but the EGS will be available in multiple stores very shortly. EGS games are already available in the Humble Store. Once they're everywhere, it's literally the exact same thing, except that instead of publishers choosing to use services, many of which don't benefit us directly (e.g., DRM), they're taking a discount that doesn't benefit us directly.

We still have no choice - someone else has the choice. Someone else is choosing what benefits them.

Well you can keep saying stuff like "exact same thing", but reality doesn't bear that out.

Sepharo wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 18:32:

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 18:31:

Kain wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 13:10:

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 08:55:
But you're wrong. If I'm trapped in my room because someone is forcing me in there, or because someone got too drunk and fell unconscious, blocking my door and me inside, I'm still stuck in my room. In one case, someone did it intentionally, in the other case, it's just how things happened, but I'm still stuck inside.

Quit while you're behind, holy fuck.

Epic buying exclusives is not good for the consumer and is not analogous to developers using Steam as a platform for distribution while selling elsewhere.

I never said it was good for the consumer.
I'm saying it isn't the apocalypse others are claiming. It's status quo. Notice my analogy was being trapped in a room.

Where are people saying it's the apocalypse?

Let's look at the hyperbole in this thread:
engaging in anti-consumer practices
douchebaggery
poisoned the water hole
take your shit back to Xbox along with that awful Gears of War game
shitty, anti-consumer business strategies
extort another business
Tim Sweeney's dick in their throat
collude
Sweeny is getting to be the new Derek Smart of this board. He is so desperate for attention for himself and his rancid company he just spews the same old BS week after week.

There's serious anger here, and this isn't a fraction as bad as the anger on reddit.
And for what? That there's now a second place that's the only place to have your games? Because, sure, you can buy Valve games elsewhere, but you'll be able to buy EGS elsewhere by the end of the summer. You are still stuck using Steam for most games - it has more exclusive games than any other platform in history. They may not be exclusive due to money changing hands, but still due to business decisions made for reasons other than the consumer.

And it isn't about Steamworks or DRM. Plenty of games not using any Steam-exclusive features are distributed solely through Steam.

Sepharo wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 13:07:

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 08:55:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 19:15:

Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 18:46:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 18:12:

Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 16:14:
Any game using Steamworks is a Steam exclusive. You can buy it elsewhere, but you're locked into Steam as a distribution model. Plenty of other games are also locked into Steam, if unofficially - there are literally tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of games only available via Steam.

That argument is NOT a valid comparison of the type of exclusivity we're talking about and you know it. Please don't grasp.

Functionally, it is. The result is there's only one service for you to use. You're just caught up in who is at fault, but the result is the same, so I couldn't be bothered to endlessly complain about it.

I "functionally" rejected your comparison as invalid.

But you're wrong.
If I'm trapped in my room because someone is forcing me in there, or because someone got too drunk and fell unconscious, blocking my door and me inside, I'm still stuck in my room. In one case, someone did it intentionally, in the other case, it's just how things happened, but I'm still stuck inside.

I never had a choice other than Steam. Now I do, for some games. For other games, I still don't. For yet more games, I can't choose Steam, because there's EGS. Hell, there hasn't even been a single EGS game I'd want to play, and by the time there is, this whole thing will likely be over, but functionally, I've been forced to use Steam many, many, many times.

Please stop being dumb. You know there's an obvious difference between paying to take a game exclusive (in where it can be sold) and a developer using Steamworks as a platform for cloud services, DRM, worskhop etc. and still selling the game in multiple stores. You dont need a dumb analogy for that distinction.

Yes, but the EGS will be available in multiple stores very shortly. EGS games are already available in the Humble Store. Once they're everywhere, it's literally the exact same thing, except that instead of publishers choosing to use services, many of which don't benefit us directly (e.g., DRM), they're taking a discount that doesn't benefit us directly.

We still have no choice - someone else has the choice. Someone else is choosing what benefits them.

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 18:31:

Kain wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 13:10:

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 08:55:
But you're wrong. If I'm trapped in my room because someone is forcing me in there, or because someone got too drunk and fell unconscious, blocking my door and me inside, I'm still stuck in my room. In one case, someone did it intentionally, in the other case, it's just how things happened, but I'm still stuck inside.

Quit while you're behind, holy fuck.

Epic buying exclusives is not good for the consumer and is not analogous to developers using Steam as a platform for distribution while selling elsewhere.

I never said it was good for the consumer.
I'm saying it isn't the apocalypse others are claiming. It's status quo. Notice my analogy was being trapped in a room.

Where are people saying it's the apocalypse?

Kain wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 13:10:

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 08:55:
But you're wrong. If I'm trapped in my room because someone is forcing me in there, or because someone got too drunk and fell unconscious, blocking my door and me inside, I'm still stuck in my room. In one case, someone did it intentionally, in the other case, it's just how things happened, but I'm still stuck inside.

Quit while you're behind, holy fuck.

Epic buying exclusives is not good for the consumer and is not analogous to developers using Steam as a platform for distribution while selling elsewhere.

I never said it was good for the consumer.
I'm saying it isn't the apocalypse others are claiming. It's status quo. Notice my analogy was being trapped in a room.

Kain wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 13:10:

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 08:55:
But you're wrong. If I'm trapped in my room because someone is forcing me in there, or because someone got too drunk and fell unconscious, blocking my door and me inside, I'm still stuck in my room. In one case, someone did it intentionally, in the other case, it's just how things happened, but I'm still stuck inside.

Quit while you're behind, holy fuck.

Epic buying exclusives is not good for the consumer and is not analogous to developers using Steam as a platform for distribution while selling elsewhere.

What is good for the consumer is having more entrants in the market. It's arguable that EGS would survive to be an entrant without these tactics. GoG for example, has been around for more than a decade, is still a tiny fraction of the market, and would arguably be out of business if not for the other successes of CDPR.

* REMOVED *
This comment was deleted on Apr 26, 2019, 17:24.

Despite Steam's flaws, Gabe has handled this perfectly. Just keep on, keeping on, and let sweenwey hang himself. Pushing out a GameStore that's halfassed, bribing off publishers and backdoor payoffs (i.e. getting publishers to give away free games, then pays their losses.)

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 08:55:
But you're wrong. If I'm trapped in my room because someone is forcing me in there, or because someone got too drunk and fell unconscious, blocking my door and me inside, I'm still stuck in my room. In one case, someone did it intentionally, in the other case, it's just how things happened, but I'm still stuck inside.

Quit while you're behind, holy fuck.

Epic buying exclusives is not good for the consumer and is not analogous to developers using Steam as a platform for distribution while selling elsewhere.

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 08:55:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 19:15:

Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 18:46:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 18:12:

Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 16:14:
Any game using Steamworks is a Steam exclusive. You can buy it elsewhere, but you're locked into Steam as a distribution model. Plenty of other games are also locked into Steam, if unofficially - there are literally tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of games only available via Steam.

That argument is NOT a valid comparison of the type of exclusivity we're talking about and you know it. Please don't grasp.

Functionally, it is. The result is there's only one service for you to use. You're just caught up in who is at fault, but the result is the same, so I couldn't be bothered to endlessly complain about it.

I "functionally" rejected your comparison as invalid.

But you're wrong.
If I'm trapped in my room because someone is forcing me in there, or because someone got too drunk and fell unconscious, blocking my door and me inside, I'm still stuck in my room. In one case, someone did it intentionally, in the other case, it's just how things happened, but I'm still stuck inside.

I never had a choice other than Steam. Now I do, for some games. For other games, I still don't. For yet more games, I can't choose Steam, because there's EGS. Hell, there hasn't even been a single EGS game I'd want to play, and by the time there is, this whole thing will likely be over, but functionally, I've been forced to use Steam many, many, many times.

Please stop being dumb. You know there's an obvious difference between paying to take a game exclusive (in where it can be sold) and a developer using Steamworks as a platform for cloud services, DRM, worskhop etc. and still selling the game in multiple stores. You dont need a dumb analogy for that distinction.

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 10:43:

I don't much give a shit what publishers choose or don't, I care what the impact is to me. Why it happens to me doesn't matter all that much, at best it mitigates. If someone were to give me a billion dollars because they think I deserve it, or were they to give it to me because they think it would corrupt me, the end result is I have a billion dollars. With Steam, the end result was always that I needed to use Steam.

So game devs and publishers had no choice but to use steam before EGS? They can't setup their own content delivery systems and sell the game from their own websites? They can't choose to not use any DRM and sell their games via GOG?

These are top priorities on Epic's roadmap.
Meanwhile, you keep talking about what publishers and developers are choosing. Are you saying they have no choice but to be exclusive on EGS? Because they have plenty of choice. They can choose to sell on EGS and not be exclusive. They can choose to not sell on EGS at all.

But, for most, when they choose to distribute on Steam, they do not choose to distribute anywhere else, so functionally, I am forced to use Steam to play the game. The choice was never mine.

You are still attributing your perceived lack of choice to be the result of a monopoly created by Valve; which isn't the case. Publishers/developers choosing to use Steam, is not the same as Steam being forced upon the consumer. Valve is not going out to publishers and developers and paying them to only release their games on Steam, thereby forcing you to adopt Steam to play the game. Regardless of the fact that you feel that you have no choice, the onus still lies on the publishers and the developers who choose to use Steam as their delivery platform.

It's a false equivalency at best, and blatantly disingenuous at worst to say that Steam's position as a market leader, is the same as EGS paying developers for exclusives.

grudgebearer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 10:32:

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 08:55:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 19:15:

Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 18:46:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 18:12:

Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 16:14:
Any game using Steamworks is a Steam exclusive. You can buy it elsewhere, but you're locked into Steam as a distribution model. Plenty of other games are also locked into Steam, if unofficially - there are literally tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of games only available via Steam.

That argument is NOT a valid comparison of the type of exclusivity we're talking about and you know it. Please don't grasp.

Functionally, it is. The result is there's only one service for you to use. You're just caught up in who is at fault, but the result is the same, so I couldn't be bothered to endlessly complain about it.

I "functionally" rejected your comparison as invalid.

But you're wrong.
If I'm trapped in my room because someone is forcing me in there, or because someone got too drunk and fell unconscious, blocking my door and me inside, I'm still stuck in my room. In one case, someone did it intentionally, in the other case, it's just how things happened, but I'm still stuck inside.

I never had a choice other than Steam. Now I do, for some games. For other games, I still don't. For yet more games, I can't choose Steam, because there's EGS. Hell, there hasn't even been a single EGS game I'd want to play, and by the time there is, this whole thing will likely be over, but functionally, I've been forced to use Steam many, many, many times.

So because publishers/developers choose to use Steam for DRM/content delivery/multi-player framework, you feel that Valve has forced the use of Steam on the world, because companies have chosen to use their platform?

I don't much give a shit what publishers choose or don't, I care what the impact is to me. Why it happens to me doesn't matter all that much, at best it mitigates. If someone were to give me a billion dollars because they think I deserve it, or were they to give it to me because they think it would corrupt me, the end result is I have a billion dollars. With Steam, the end result was always that I needed to use Steam.

So game devs and publishers had no choice but to use steam before EGS? They can't setup their own content delivery systems and sell the game from their own websites? They can't choose to not use any DRM and sell their games via GOG?

These are top priorities on Epic's roadmap.
Meanwhile, you keep talking about what publishers and developers are choosing. Are you saying they have no choice but to be exclusive on EGS? Because they have plenty of choice. They can choose to sell on EGS and not be exclusive. They can choose to not sell on EGS at all.

But, for most, when they choose to distribute on Steam, they do not choose to distribute anywhere else, so functionally, I am forced to use Steam to play the game. The choice was never mine.

Beamer wrote on Apr 26, 2019, 08:55:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 19:15:

Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 18:46:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 18:12:

Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2019, 16:14:
Any game using Steamworks is a Steam exclusive. You can buy it elsewhere, but you're locked into Steam as a distribution model. Plenty of other games are also locked into Steam, if unofficially - there are literally tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of games only available via Steam.

That argument is NOT a valid comparison of the type of exclusivity we're talking about and you know it. Please don't grasp.

Functionally, it is. The result is there's only one service for you to use. You're just caught up in who is at fault, but the result is the same, so I couldn't be bothered to endlessly complain about it.

I "functionally" rejected your comparison as invalid.

But you're wrong.
If I'm trapped in my room because someone is forcing me in there, or because someone got too drunk and fell unconscious, blocking my door and me inside, I'm still stuck in my room. In one case, someone did it intentionally, in the other case, it's just how things happened, but I'm still stuck inside.

I never had a choice other than Steam. Now I do, for some games. For other games, I still don't. For yet more games, I can't choose Steam, because there's EGS. Hell, there hasn't even been a single EGS game I'd want to play, and by the time there is, this whole thing will likely be over, but functionally, I've been forced to use Steam many, many, many times.

So because publishers/developers choose to use Steam for DRM/content delivery/multi-player framework, you feel that Valve has forced the use of Steam on the world, because companies have chosen to use their platform?

So game devs and publishers had no choice but to use steam before EGS? They can't setup their own content delivery systems and sell the game from their own websites? They can't choose to not use any DRM and sell their games via GOG?