Burrito of Peace wrote on Feb 28, 2019, 06:39:
If we were talking about an enterprise backup solution, we'd be discussing a level of cost that is beyond the average consumer. However, we're not discussing that are we? We're discussing robust, functional, and manageable NAS deployments that provide redundancy and resiliency. Two key points your solution would utterly fail a simple audit on.

No, you seem to keep forgetting we're just discussing backing up game installers from GOG, nothing else. A NAS is still beyond what the average user needs when a simple external drive will do the job. Any backup is better than no backup. Would a NAS be better? You have to consider if it is worth the cost for what's being backed up. As the person I replied to already discovered, the cost of a NAS big enough to backup their GOG library would cost twice as much as what they paid for the game library.

I don't consider my games or game installers as super important data. I backup my GOG installers as well as my Steam library to external drives mainly as a convenience to save myself the hassle of re-downloading them if the drive in my system craps out. I keep two copies of each besides the working copy on my system. The only thing a NAS would do in this situation is add unnecessary cost.

Going off topic, for data that I do consider important and irreplaceable, documents, digital pictures, etc., it's actually not that much data (less than 100GB). I have online backups as well as at least four hard copies of my really important data. Whenever I go out of town I take a copy with me in case my house burns down or gets robbed. I could add an NAS to the mix, but I don't need, or want, my backup drive(s) running 24/7 making them susceptible to viruses, malware or network intrusion. I would not rely on just a NAS as my only backup, nor is a NAS fire or theft proof, so I would continue to keep backups on external drives for those purposes. Once again, in this situation, a NAS would only add unnecessary cost.

MeanJim wrote on Feb 28, 2019, 04:14:
It's a perfectly viable backup strategy in the context of this discussion. We're not talking about an enterprise backup solution in a corporate environment, we're talking backing up game installers from GOG FFS.

In your universe you may consider that "perfectly viable". It's your data so do what you want with it. Any loss is your problem to deal with.

If we were talking about an enterprise backup solution, we'd be discussing a level of cost that is beyond the average consumer. However, we're not discussing that are we? We're discussing robust, functional, and manageable NAS deployments that provide redundancy and resiliency. Two key points your solution would utterly fail a simple audit on.

I also addressed further upthread that once you have a NAS, you start using it for far more than "game installers" because you begin to realize the usefulness of it. So instead of looking at it from a single use case, it would be better to look at it as a multi-use case and design around that. I'd rather have something that has a lifecycle that looks further down the road and provides the flexibility to meet changing demands. I'd also rather recommend that so people who follow that advice are happier for longer periods of time.

But you do you.

Burrito of Peace wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 20:57:

MeanJim wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 20:44:
You must have missed the part about where I use several drives....I have more redundant copies at a fraction of the cost of a NAS

No, I didn't but claiming a half-assed JBOD is a viable and valid backup strategy is, well, laughable.

It's a perfectly viable backup strategy in the context of this discussion. We're not talking about an enterprise backup solution in a corporate environment, we're talking backing up game installers from GOG FFS.

Tipsy McStagger wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 17:26:
So here's the truth:

I don't care to save 10$ on a video game. I use steam because it's easy and convenient for me to use. I understand I can buy from GOG and then put the key into steam for example but why would I even bother looking there.

I'm not the only middle aged man with cash and not enough time that does this I'm assuming.

You should buy from GOG to support the idea of DRM free software, and because they do a hell of a job keeping classics "alive" for new generations. Especially if you are a wealthy middle-aged man you can easily contribute in a good way by throwing them your cash.

Tipsy McStagger wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 17:26:
So here's the truth:

I don't care to save 10$ on a video game. I use steam because it's easy and convenient for me to use. I understand I can buy from GOG and then put the key into steam for example but why would I even bother looking there.

I'm not the only middle aged man with cash and not enough time that does this I'm assuming.

To each his own, of course, but how much more convenient do you need Gog to be? Either buy from their website or buy through galaxy, download from either, run Galaxy client or don't; more options than Steam honestly.

Anything I buy single player, I buy on Gog. Multiplayer requirements complicate things a bit, so I have Steam, Origin, Uplay, Battle.net, etc. but don't run them by default.

MeanJim wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 20:44:
You must have missed the part about where I use several drives....I have more redundant copies at a fraction of the cost of a NAS

No, I didn't but claiming a half-assed JBOD is a viable and valid backup strategy is, well, laughable. What you have is a bunch of disks with random hours on them, non-manageable and non-addressable interfaces, no way to automatically test and validate your backups, either singly or do delta comparisons between backup sets, and absolutely no way to guarantee a fully CRCed COW in the event of a power flutter or outage let alone something like an interface going down. Though, unless you use an HBA with a battery backup, you run the same risk when depending on on-board SATA devices too.

Your fraction of the cost of a NAS is also missing 90% of what a NAS is for. A NAS isn't "I just bought a bunch of disks and crammed them into this old Dell shitbox and that's my backup, lulz!"

Burrito of Peace wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 16:26:

RedEye9 wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 15:58:

MeanJim wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 15:45:

RedEye9 wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 10:54:
I really don't feel like coughing up $950 dollars for a NAS to safeguard my $517 gog library. smh


edit
The WD 10TB Elements Desktop Hard Drive - USB 3.0 - WDBWLG0100HBK-NESN
is $159 deal of the day at Amazon. Good for shucking and filling up those nas holes.

You don't need a fancy NAS or big ass USB3 drive just to backup your games. You can get a a USB3/eSATA dock pretty cheap and use old/spare drives or just buy regular old drives to backup to. I have an eSATA dock (also works in USB3), and several drives I backup to, plus a USB3 drive I keep important files on and stored in a fire safe. I like to have redundant backups. Most of my backup drives are old drives from past systems that otherwise would be collecting dust.

good ideas...

...if you don't care about your data.

Using old drives is like using old, used condoms. Sure, they might work for a bit but do you really want to trust in them to prevent a life altering disaster?

You must have missed the part about where I use several drives. I have multiple copies of anything important. These "old" drives are 1TB and 2TB drives that I have been replaced with bigger drives or SSDs. I also have some new drives in the mix bought just for backups. All of my backup drives are in the bottom of the bathtub (i.e. they're still in their reliability prime). I have more redundant copies at a fraction of the cost of a NAS

So here's the truth:

I don't care to save 10$ on a video game. I use steam because it's easy and convenient for me to use. I understand I can buy from GOG and then put the key into steam for example but why would I even bother looking there.

I'm not the only middle aged man with cash and not enough time that does this I'm assuming.

CJ_Parker wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 17:00:

WaltC wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 16:27:
I agree with this...nothing here really to make one think they were in any kind of financial straits. It's not even clear that GOG is in the "red" (except of course for CDPRed...;))

The GOG segment did in fact post a loss for Q3/2018 and for the first nine months of 2018.

In Q3/2018 the GOG segment reported an operating loss of 835,000 PLN which is ~US$ 220,000.

Likewise, they reported an operating loss of PLN 1,365,000 for the first nine months of 2018 which is about ~US$360K.

In 2017 they still reported profits for both periods. It is pretty clear that fading Witcher sales and a disappointing market acceptance of their standalone GWENT game has resulted in a poor performance throughout 2018.

The GOG.com segment also obtains revenues from microtransactions carried out in the framework of GWENT: The Witcher Card Game. The corresponding revenues depend on gamer interest, as well as on the game’s publishing schedule, including milestones such as the launch of the public beta (Q2 2017) and major updates (e.g. new card sets).

Revenues associated with GWENT leveled off in the second and third quarters of 2018, in association with the ongoing Homecoming project.

... and (they try to make it sound better than it is)...

Both in Q3 2018 and in the nine-month period since the beginning of the year the Group reported lower sales revenues in the GOG.com segment compared to the corresponding reference periods in 2017. Aggregate sales revenues in the first three quarters of 2018 were 92 685 thousand PLN, i.e. 28% lower than in the corresponding period in 2017. In Q3 the segment generated 28 109 thousand PLN in sales revenues, i.e. 16% less than in Q3 2017. Nevertheless, when denominated in USD (the primary transaction currency for GOG.com sales), total revenues from online sales carried out via GOG.com and GOG Galaxy for products licensed from external suppliers (i.e. not affected by the release schedule of CD PROJEKT RED), aggregated over the nine-month period between 1 January and 30 September 2018, were 24 732 USD, which represents a 22% increase compared to the reference period in 2017

... and here is why they no longer do the fair price thing (eliminating regional pricing by giving customers store credit)...

The average USD/PLN exchange rate at the close of each trading day comprising the first nine months of 2018 was 3.56, compared to 3.84 in the reference period in 2017. Given that 94% of the Capital Group’s sales in Q1-Q3 2018 were exports, this strengthening of PLN against USD (based on the abovementioned average exchange rates) means that for each dollar collected in payments during Q1-Q3 2018 GOG.com’s revenues were 0.28 PLN lower than during the reference period (a decrease of more than 7%).Moreover, during the first half of the current year the ratio between the reported value of goods and materials sold and the corresponding revenues from sales of goods and materials (i.e. gross sales profit) was impacted by the unfavorable relation between the average exchange rates for each day of a given month, and the exchange rate in force on the final day of that month. More information regarding this issue may be found in the commentary section attached to GOG.com results in the Management Board report on CD PROJEKT Capital Group activities for the period between 1 January and 30 June 2018

Source

I always appreciate your instinct to Google this and find some evidence instead of shooting authoritatively from your gut. CDPR is a public company, and linking to their financials is super useful.

WaltC wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 16:27:
I agree with this...nothing here really to make one think they were in any kind of financial straits. It's not even clear that GOG is in the "red" (except of course for CDPRed...;))

The GOG segment did in fact post a loss for Q3/2018 and for the first nine months of 2018.

In Q3/2018 the GOG segment reported an operating loss of 835,000 PLN which is ~US$ 220,000.

Likewise, they reported an operating loss of PLN 1,365,000 for the first nine months of 2018 which is about ~US$360K.

In 2017 they still reported profits for both periods. It is pretty clear that fading Witcher sales and a disappointing market acceptance of their standalone GWENT game has resulted in a poor performance throughout 2018.

The GOG.com segment also obtains revenues from microtransactions carried out in the framework of GWENT: The Witcher Card Game. The corresponding revenues depend on gamer interest, as well as on the game’s publishing schedule, including milestones such as the launch of the public beta (Q2 2017) and major updates (e.g. new card sets).

Revenues associated with GWENT leveled off in the second and third quarters of 2018, in association with the ongoing Homecoming project.

... and (they try to make it sound better than it is)...

Both in Q3 2018 and in the nine-month period since the beginning of the year the Group reported lower sales revenues in the GOG.com segment compared to the corresponding reference periods in 2017. Aggregate sales revenues in the first three quarters of 2018 were 92 685 thousand PLN, i.e. 28% lower than in the corresponding period in 2017. In Q3 the segment generated 28 109 thousand PLN in sales revenues, i.e. 16% less than in Q3 2017. Nevertheless, when denominated in USD (the primary transaction currency for GOG.com sales), total revenues from online sales carried out via GOG.com and GOG Galaxy for products licensed from external suppliers (i.e. not affected by the release schedule of CD PROJEKT RED), aggregated over the nine-month period between 1 January and 30 September 2018, were 24 732 USD, which represents a 22% increase compared to the reference period in 2017

... and here is why they no longer do the fair price thing (eliminating regional pricing by giving customers store credit)...

The average USD/PLN exchange rate at the close of each trading day comprising the first nine months of 2018 was 3.56, compared to 3.84 in the reference period in 2017. Given that 94% of the Capital Group’s sales in Q1-Q3 2018 were exports, this strengthening of PLN against USD (based on the abovementioned average exchange rates) means that for each dollar collected in payments during Q1-Q3 2018 GOG.com’s revenues were 0.28 PLN lower than during the reference period (a decrease of more than 7%).Moreover, during the first half of the current year the ratio between the reported value of goods and materials sold and the corresponding revenues from sales of goods and materials (i.e. gross sales profit) was impacted by the unfavorable relation between the average exchange rates for each day of a given month, and the exchange rate in force on the final day of that month. More information regarding this issue may be found in the commentary section attached to GOG.com results in the Management Board report on CD PROJEKT Capital Group activities for the period between 1 January and 30 June 2018

Source

eRe4s3r wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 12:30:

The fact that you can't mass download your files easily on GoG is one my greatest annoyances with that site. Yeah, I only own 70 games on there, and that number won't increase now with the price increaes, but I want my backups now because doesn't seem like GoG will exist forever.

I have no trouble downloading 6-8 games at once through my browser--it isn't a problem outside of Galaxy. I only use Galaxy now to update and for the initial install. Also, I download the manual backup installable copies (after installation) whenever I buy from GOG--highly recommended. Doing it that way, you hardly notice the time it takes. As your GOG library grows, so does your local backup library.

I often wonder what will happen to Steam once Gabe goes belly up...;)

There's an easy solution. Make Cyberpunk 2077 a GOG exclusive. It will draw everyone on to their platform.

Another step in the right direction. GOG need to stop being the (too) nice and shy guy.

Adding games with DRM would be the next probable move. Reasoning: We came up with DRM-free at the time of SecuROM, Starforce etc., times have changed, DRM nowadays is less intrusive, we will carefully select and add games with "light" DRM only... blahblahblah... DRM is here now.

Another thing they should have done ages ago is to make their old releases where they have actively put in work to make them run on modern systems exclusive to GOG. At least timed exclusives.

It's pretty shitty for GOG that they did the work (sometimes not just coding but also legal research etc.) and the publisher went 'thanks' and put up their fixed, old games on Steam, uPlay etc.
GOG probably should have insisted a little harder on having the games exclusive for a certain period of time.
It's a doubled edged sword though because publishers might just deny GOG from tampering with/releasing old games if they start making demands.

Finally, they need to advertise the fact harder that they have the "best" versions of some games. Lazy EA is the publisher of Crysis and they don't even have the 64-bit version on Origin. Steam doesn't either.
The only (digital) place that has 64-bit Crysis is GOG. There are workarounds for non-GOG versions but only GOG has 64-bit Crysis out of the box. They need to up their marketing game by making people aware of stuff like that.

Oh well, most of GOG's financial woes will be a thing of the past once Cyberpunk is released. That will give them a few years of rest thanks to DLCs, bundles etc.
GOG's current activity seems to be a good indicator btw that Cyberpunk is nowhere close to release and that it definitely won't be coming out this year.
That's not too surprising though since it's been so quiet around CP. If CP were close then we'd have it coming out our ears already. CDP are the gatling guns of marketing.
I mean, we will know for sure when CP is coming. You'd have to deliberately stay off the internet for weeks to miss it.

MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 12:34:
Gog is going to be fine; this Direct to Account aspect should let them sell Gog Keys easier through resellers, Humble Bundles, other stores, etc.

Gog has had that wording or something close to it in their EULA for awhile now(about downloading copies, etc.)

Don't forget that CDProjekt RED is lurking behind, hopefully still overflowing with Witcher money.

All of that said, hopefully these moves put Gog back into the black financially.

I agree with this...nothing here really to make one think they were in any kind of financial straits. It's not even clear that GOG is in the "red" (except of course for CDPRed...;))

RedEye9 wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 15:58:

MeanJim wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 15:45:

RedEye9 wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 10:54:
I really don't feel like coughing up $950 dollars for a NAS to safeguard my $517 gog library. smh


edit
The WD 10TB Elements Desktop Hard Drive - USB 3.0 - WDBWLG0100HBK-NESN
is $159 deal of the day at Amazon. Good for shucking and filling up those nas holes.

You don't need a fancy NAS or big ass USB3 drive just to backup your games. You can get a a USB3/eSATA dock pretty cheap and use old/spare drives or just buy regular old drives to backup to. I have an eSATA dock (also works in USB3), and several drives I backup to, plus a USB3 drive I keep important files on and stored in a fire safe. I like to have redundant backups. Most of my backup drives are old drives from past systems that otherwise would be collecting dust.

good ideas...

...if you don't care about your data.

Using old drives is like using old, used condoms. Sure, they might work for a bit but do you really want to trust in them to prevent a life altering disaster?

NASes are built for redundancy, both on the hardware and software levels. With the right configuration, they provide a recovery means that would otherwise be unavailable to you barring incredibly expensive disk recovery services which are not guaranteed.

If you follow Burrito's Backup Plan of Paranoia, you do the following:

1. Backup to an onsite NAS (Well, SAN in my case)
2. The onsite gets backed up to a secondary NAS which is only powered on to receive said backup, does the backup, tests and verifies the backup, and then powers off.
3. After the primary backup is complete, the onsite NAS does a backup to an offsite location which follows the same pattern as the on-site backup NAS.

Yeah, I get that it's just game installers from GOG but it won't end there. Once you have a NAS, you start using it.

I also cannot agree with the recommendation of using Unraid as a NAS solution. While it can do NAS-esque features, that's not what it is purpose built for.

Rather, you can do turnkey-ish solutions with NAS4Free or FreeNAS. If you want to get your hands dirty, you can start with something like Nethserver which is a good web frontend over CentOS for people who prefer easy, GUI driven tools.

Or you could start with an Ubuntu, Debian, or CentOS minimal install and build your own install specifically as a NAS.

MeanJim wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 15:45:

RedEye9 wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 10:54:
I really don't feel like coughing up $950 dollars for a NAS to safeguard my $517 gog library. smh


edit
The WD 10TB Elements Desktop Hard Drive - USB 3.0 - WDBWLG0100HBK-NESN
is $159 deal of the day at Amazon. Good for shucking and filling up those nas holes.

You don't need a fancy NAS or big ass USB3 drive just to backup your games. You can get a a USB3/eSATA dock pretty cheap and use old/spare drives or just buy regular old drives to backup to. I have an eSATA dock (also works in USB3), and several drives I backup to, plus a USB3 drive I keep important files on and stored in a fire safe. I like to have redundant backups. Most of my backup drives are old drives from past systems that otherwise would be collecting dust.

good ideas, thanks

RedEye9 wrote on Feb 27, 2019, 10:54:
I really don't feel like coughing up $950 dollars for a NAS to safeguard my $517 gog library. smh


edit
The WD 10TB Elements Desktop Hard Drive - USB 3.0 - WDBWLG0100HBK-NESN
is $159 deal of the day at Amazon. Good for shucking and filling up those nas holes.

You don't need a fancy NAS or big ass USB3 drive just to backup your games. You can get a a USB3/eSATA dock pretty cheap and use old/spare drives or just buy regular old drives to backup to. I have an eSATA dock (also works in USB3), and several drives I backup to, plus a USB3 drive I keep important files on and stored in a fire safe. I like to have redundant backups. Most of my backup drives are old drives from past systems that otherwise would be collecting dust.

Afaik, they have been spending all their money on cyberpunk 2077. Once it's released, I don't think there will be an issue any more.

Meanwhile at EA CEO office:

Get ready to .......

Gog is going to be fine; this Direct to Account aspect should let them sell Gog Keys easier through resellers, Humble Bundles, other stores, etc.

Gog has had that wording or something close to it in their EULA for awhile now(about downloading copies, etc.)

Don't forget that CDProjekt RED is lurking behind, hopefully still overflowing with Witcher money.

All of that said, hopefully these moves put Gog back into the black financially.