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Can You Actually See Ray Tracing?

A video on YouTube from UFD Gaming takes a look at real-time ray tracing in video games (thanks [H]ardOCP). Or rather attempts to take a look at the effect in a video game, as they use Battlefield V to see if they can tell the difference between ray tracing being turned off and on. "I honestly thought it would be more obvious" is the first impression offered, and this is indicative of the results, as most of their crew was vague about whether they can tell the difference. One of them was convinced he could spot the effect in the first video since there was reflective water in the scene, which inspired a second test on the snow map for an additional challenge. When it was all said and done, they actually did pretty well for the most part, but there were wrong answers along the way. More significantly, the participants admitted that in some cases they were guessing, and one of them in particular said his answers relied on all the RTX videos he had already seen. This leads to the statement: "Ray tracing. At least from a panel of four people, we can kinda guess when it's on, but only if we're looking for it. And even then, ehhhh?" The host backs off from that even more in his conclusion: "That's going to wrap up this video of whether or not we can tell if Ray Tracing is on or off. Spoiler alert: no."

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27. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 16, 2019, 18:14 HorrorScope
 
Ozmodan wrote on Jan 16, 2019, 08:29:
I saw a test the other day with someone turning on ray tracing with a 2060 in BF V and getting single digit FPS in some areas.

The 2060 does come at a decent price point though, for $350 you get a card that is equivalent to a 1070 which still goes for $100 more.

It's benching better than a 1070ti, falling in between that and a 1080 and some are so small, it's not that big of a deal.
 
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26. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 16, 2019, 13:23 eRe4s3r
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 23:52:
eRe4s3r wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 15:36:
Instead of RTX we should be focusing more on widespread Vulcan and DX12 support. But that's completely fallen by the wayside.

Well, DXR is part of the DirectX 12 spec thanks to nVidia's collaboration with Microsoft so you are indirectly asking for better ray-tracing support here Wink .

It's Vulkan by the way (like our German word for volcano), not Vulcan. Vulcan -among other shit- is a 20mm cannon on jets.

Whoopsy ,) But with DX12 support I mean DX12 performance issues that especially plague TW:WH2 and other titles recently.
 
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25. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 16, 2019, 10:38 NetHead
 

WaltC wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 11:25:
Rasterization is what all 3d GPUs are built to do--and what is it? It's simulated ray-tracing, essentially...;) Rasterization is the attempt to simulate the visual results of actual ray-tracing, but in an incredibly tiny amount of the time that actual ray-tracing takes.

I agree with most of your sentiment and what you're saying, it's hard not to since it's mostly factual. Though I wouldn't call raytracing in consumer hardware a gimmick.

It does have some great potential even with the currently available hardware. Though it will likely surprise some that this potential is in audio and not visual.

Sound propagation through environments and even substances could add a lot of depth to games, imagine a stealth game where sound bounces down a corridor and around the corner, gets muffled by closing a thin door or outright culled by closing a thick door. This obviously wouldn't be limited to a stealth game but it's a prime example, even a fast paced shooter could benefit, or how about a horror game.

All for a fraction of the performance impact that any slightly noticeable visual raytraced rendering would cost, for visuals "faking" things via rasterisation is the way to go, you simply get more for your silicone.

Though I can't help but wonder if raytracing hardware could be used on the visual side in a sense similar to audio, like perhaps to cheaply determine where some volumetric light (real god rays) should be located but otherwise rendering them in a cheaper typical way.


Just to spew out a quick thought, basically it might be worth looking at it, and using it, as a hardware accelerated expansion to PhysX (or equivalent) rather then using it to do actual rendering. People often find cleaver uses for things other than its intended purpose.

 
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24. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 16, 2019, 09:03 Spektr
 
Back in the days when Quake was released, all the noobs were crying that Duke Nukem looked better than it because the Quake characters were super blocky. They just didn't have any clue that Quake was a true 3d game while Duke Nukem was really just an advanced 2d game. Who was right? The ones who could tell the change of paradigm or the kids who thought Duke Nukem was cooler and looked prettier? Both games are retro vintage games nowadays but a game like Quake ushered in an era of 3d games and internet multiplayer games and Duke Nukem lives on in the lovely memories of the players. Today, Raycasting is a new change of paradigm. Whether it will be the RTX or another generation. It's coming for sure and it will eventually take over. The question is when. And whether you can see it or not is really a matter of the developpers really skilled at "hiding sharp angles". They are making the most out of Screenspace reflections. But as someone who's dabbled in game development on an amateur level I can tell you one thing, those reflections suck and they limit creators in that they need to take time to hide their limitations. If Raycasting become commonplace, there is a lot of time spent coding and designs reflections, but also light and shadows that will be spent focusing on other stuff. Raycasting means levels and game can be designed differently but that is not the kind of thing you can see on a game that makes it an optional feature. Yeah you could compare it to Physx and their torn clothes feature, well that's different. Physx is a proprietary tech and Raycasting is a technique that has been around for decades and that doesn't belong to nVidia. It is bound to be accessible on all kinds of hardware.  
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23. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 16, 2019, 08:29 Ozmodan
 
I saw a test the other day with someone turning on ray tracing with a 2060 in BF V and getting single digit FPS in some areas.

The 2060 does come at a decent price point though, for $350 you get a card that is equivalent to a 1070 which still goes for $100 more.
 
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22. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 23:52 CJ_Parker
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 15:36:
Instead of RTX we should be focusing more on widespread Vulcan and DX12 support. But that's completely fallen by the wayside.

Well, DXR is part of the DirectX 12 spec thanks to nVidia's collaboration with Microsoft so you are indirectly asking for better ray-tracing support here Wink .

It's Vulkan by the way (like our German word for volcano), not Vulcan. Vulcan -among other shit- is a 20mm cannon on jets.
 
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21. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 22:35 Muscular Beaver
 
Barely noticed it either. Even in their videos, that focus on it. Ive seen similar effects in other games before, yet its not something you really look for anyway. Its not worth the performance it eats, when activated. They basically took away VRAM to implement it and make it not too expensive and then its still much more expensive than the last generation. Everyone I know would have rather seen prices like last gen and more VRAM instead of this useless crap.

What they should rather do, and what would actually be visible much more, would be a system that prevents clipping, since programmers obviously cant be bothered to get it right on their own. Everyone hates when a character pulls up his gun and the left arm goes right through the crotch...
 
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Sick of waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
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20. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 22:24 HorrorScope
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 13:29:
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 12:46:
I think it has always been the case when you start playing a game and stop gawking directly at the GFX's a lot of it isn't as important or noticeable. That said, if you can give me better, so be it, that's how the world is supposed to spin.

I think "GPU can ~98% match the visual results of ray-tracing" if looking for it, I feel it's well less than 98%. In the examples we've all seen there is a very noticeable difference and it's a major class step above rasterization.

Now does either tell the same story? Yeah. That then becomes a movie type thing, you can get the same story and pull from a phone than you can from a 100" projection system, once your pulled into the story it all translates over no matter size screen. Again it's when you stop to specifically look at X is when that starts to matter more.

But you don't play GFX you play immersion. And if a graphics feature does not add anything to your immersion it should be disabled (like any god awful motion blur, depth of field or blur aa)

I think that is what I've alluded to as well.
 
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19. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 18:47 Riahderymnmaddog
 
Social justice warriors are forcing ray tracing down our throats to further their liberal agenda!!!  
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18. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 15:36 eRe4s3r
 
Avus wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 14:58:
As a current GTX970 user, I will probably skip the first gen ray tracing GPU. Probably go for GTX 11 series or AMD equivalent for my next GPU upgrade. I don't buy GPU every gen so I am guessing a 3rd gen ray tracing card (RTX 4000s) will be my first

I am on a 1070 8gb card and don't plan on upgrading anytime soon, but that doesn't mean that RTX doesn't interest me. The problem is I know enough about non-rt rendering to be very doubtful of their "tensor core" solution to last them for more than 2 generations and if they expand on it the cards will inevitably not get faster in other raster applications. Which does in fact still matter considering no card runs Total War: Warhammer 2 on anything even approaching 144fps and that's in bog standard DX11 at 2560x1440 ....

Instead of RTX we should be focusing more on widespread Vulcan and DX12 support. But that's completely fallen by the wayside.
 
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17. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 15:31 The Pyro
 
I would only expect to see a major difference when looking at large reflective surfaces (e.g. glass, water). Without ray-tracing, the reflections will be drawn using something like a static environment map. They're reasonably good at fooling your brain, so the player still feels immersed.

With ray-tracing turned on, however, you ought to see a reflection of the actual environment including any dynamic objects such as player characters, etc... Depending on how maps are designed, this might even confer a competitive advantage to players who can use ray-traced reflections to see around corners.

I wouldn't expect a night-and-day difference in overall visual quality, though, because of course a huge AAA game isn't going to blow half their art budget on a rendering pipeline that's unusable by 99% of their customers. The game needs to look great on the majority of systems.
 
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16. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 15:30 ForgedReality
 
Timmeh wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 11:29:
El Pit wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 11:14:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 11:05:
What Jensen Huang said, "It just works."
What Jensen Huang meant, "Please buy our overpriced gpu's with features you'll never benefit from with this generation of cards."


We all love AMD for selling a faster card with even more new features at a more reasonable price, right?

Said fans of Ati circa 2002

ATI was kicking nVidia's ass for a while back then. nVidia actually had competition then, and AMD wasn't involved in videocards. Since buying ATI, AMD has left nVidia largely unchallenged. I think we would all love for this to change, but as it stands now, I would never even consider an AMD card, let alone one of these RTX cards.
 
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15. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 14:58 Peeeling
 
It's worth remembering that artists and art directors deliberately work around the limitations that they have. Simply put, if something specifically needs ray-tracing (or ray-traced AO or whatever) to look awesome, it won't be there in the base game for RTX to work with when you switch it on.

It's like the way Doom (original) just doesn't look that great no matter how many modern switches you pull. IIRC it didn't even have any transparent surfaces. Doom (latest release) on the other hand looks amazing, because it was built with a different set of assumptions.

It might even be something entirely different and unexpected that falls out of RTX. Remember when we could have games that looked nice, or games where the environment was dynamic, but not both? I think judging the technology just now might be premature.
 
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14. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 14:58 Avus
 
As a current GTX970 user, I will probably skip the first gen ray tracing GPU. Probably go for GTX 11 series or AMD equivalent for my next GPU upgrade. I don't buy GPU every gen so I am guessing a 3rd gen ray tracing card (RTX 4000s) will be my first  
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I am not a Mac user unless under duress. - John Carmack
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13. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 14:02 wtf_man
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 13:29:
But you don't play GFX you play immersion. And if a graphics feature does not add anything to your immersion it should be disabled (like any god awful motion blur, depth of field or blur aa)

This.

How accurate the "light and reflection" is on glass, chrome, or water has little to do with immersion within a game. Same goes for shadows at the highest settings.
 
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"Did you even read cutters post or are you just suffering from rectal cranial inversion." - RedEye9
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12. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 13:29 eRe4s3r
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 15, 2019, 12:46:
I think it has always been the case when you start playing a game and stop gawking directly at the GFX's a lot of it isn't as important or noticeable. That said, if you can give me better, so be it, that's how the world is supposed to spin.

I think "GPU can ~98% match the visual results of ray-tracing" if looking for it, I feel it's well less than 98%. In the examples we've all seen there is a very noticeable difference and it's a major class step above rasterization.

Now does either tell the same story? Yeah. That then becomes a movie type thing, you can get the same story and pull from a phone than you can from a 100" projection system, once your pulled into the story it all translates over no matter size screen. Again it's when you stop to specifically look at X is when that starts to matter more.

But you don't play GFX you play immersion. And if a graphics feature does not add anything to your immersion it should be disabled (like any god awful motion blur, depth of field or blur aa)
 
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11. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 13:16 Wallshadows
 
Seems like a poor choice of game to showcase these features though. In a game where you should always be moving it's counter-intuitive to stop and take a moment to really notice the reflections and lighting.

It's not going to create a Christmas Miracle where both sides stop fighting to look in to a puddle.

Then again it's not like there are options to pick and choose a game to showcase now is there?
 
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10. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 13:00 Xero
 
I remember watching a video I think IGN put together comparing BFV with Ray tracing enabled vs not. Actually it may have been Nvidia site now that I think about it, rofl. Watching the comparison videos I could hardly see a difference. I mean they had side by side of the same video and the difference was no way worth any type of crazy money.

If you are going to buy one of these newer cards, buy it for the power that you probably don't even need yet, but don't buy it for some gimmicky feature that is nearly impossible to spot and impossible to spot if you didn't know it was there.
 
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Primarily playing ATM: CS Go, DUSK, Ion Maiden, FarCry New Dawn, 20XX
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9. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 12:46 HorrorScope
 
I think it has always been the case when you start playing a game and stop gawking directly at the GFX's a lot of it isn't as important or noticeable. That said, if you can give me better, so be it, that's how the world is supposed to spin.

I think "GPU can ~98% match the visual results of ray-tracing" if looking for it, I feel it's well less than 98%. In the examples we've all seen there is a very noticeable difference and it's a major class step above rasterization.

Now does either tell the same story? Yeah. That then becomes a movie type thing, you can get the same story and pull from a phone than you can from a 100" projection system, once your pulled into the story it all translates over no matter size screen. Again it's when you stop to specifically look at X is when that starts to matter more.
 
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8. Re: Can You Actually See Ray Tracing? Jan 15, 2019, 12:33 Spektr
 
I didn't even know that they were using raytracing for lighting and shadow  
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