Strider83 wrote on Aug 28, 2018, 05:24:

jdreyer wrote on Aug 28, 2018, 03:30:

Mr. Tact wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 18:13:
I wonder if these "mass shooters" started showing up at NRA events if it would have an effect...

I've said this many times before: the only way the law changes is if congress gets shot up by a mass shooter and many congress people die. These politicians will do nothing unless it's in their own self interest.

To be clear, I'm not hoping for such an eventuality. I'm just noting the decades-long pattern.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought a shooter targeted a congressional baseball practice on June 14,2017 in Alexandria Virginia. Rep Steve Scalise was almost killed. The Virginia Attorney General concluded it was "fueled by rage against Republican legislators". Maybe if they had been democrats and were targeted something would be different today. All these politicians care about is what is best for their political futures and being re-elected. The government of the United States has become a laughingstock due to it's inability to get anything done with the best interests of the American People at hand. I guess maybe if more than one was gravely injured maybe they would care like the gamers in Jacksonville, or students in Parkland and Santa Fe.

Yes, that incident happened, but didn't have the effect I'm talking about for a few reasons.

1. No one died (fortunately). My thought is that it would take a Parkland level incident against the congress to effect change. Again, not advocating for that, just noticing the pattern of how congress operates.

2. The police escort quickly neutralized the shooter, reinforcing the NRA mantra of "a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun." Unfortunately, the vast majority of the public don't get their own armed and trained personal bodyguards.

Dems tend to be pro gun control, so if Dems had been shot, it would have been no different. It's the anti gun control crowd that needs to be convinced. Politicians tend to change when something personally affects them. Dick Cheney is pretty much as hardcore conservative as you get. He does happen to be pro gay rights, because one of his daughters is gay.

As for getting things done for the people, that won't happen until you get rid of corporate money in politics. As this study shows, the US is an oligarchy and not a democracy:

Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.

Corporations get what they want 98% of the time (massive influence), while citizens get what they want 50% of the time (basically no influence, same as a coin toss).

Some simple fixes:

1. Publicly fund all elections.
2. Ban all corporations from donating to any PAC or campaign
3. Keep the personal campaign donation limit at $2700 at the federal level

Politicians spend more time raising money for their campaigns than they do legislating. That has got to change. Not that I'll live to see it.

jdreyer wrote on Aug 28, 2018, 03:30:

Mr. Tact wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 18:13:
I wonder if these "mass shooters" started showing up at NRA events if it would have an effect...

I've said this many times before: the only way the law changes is if congress gets shot up by a mass shooter and many congress people die. These politicians will do nothing unless it's in their own self interest.

To be clear, I'm not hoping for such an eventuality. I'm just noting the decades-long pattern.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought a shooter targeted a congressional baseball practice on June 14,2017 in Alexandria Virginia. Rep Steve Scalise was almost killed. The Virginia Attorney General concluded it was "fueled by rage against Republican legislators". Maybe if they had been democrats and were targeted something would be different today. All these politicians care about is what is best for their political futures and being re-elected. The government of the United States has become a laughingstock due to it's inability to get anything done with the best interests of the American People at hand. I guess maybe if more than one was gravely injured maybe they would care like the gamers in Jacksonville, or students in Parkland and Santa Fe.

NKD wrote on Aug 28, 2018, 00:40:

Muscular Beaver wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 20:30:
Gang Member: Psychopath, sociopath, lots of possibilities.
Husband: Same, or simply some forms of pathological problems. Have you ever read a tiny bit about psychology and mental illness? There are so many illnesses and different versions of those as well.
Detecting them isnt a that huge of a problem. A lot of them actually are being treated - with medication. And that often makes it worse. Of course the gang member wont go to the doctor and say "dude, I just killed a few people, I think I need treatment". Criminals are criminals. You will never be able to get rid of them completely. Unless you want to build in control chips...

The real problem is the pharmaceutical lobby and how the society finds it bad to properly treat people like that. That includes a proper mental healthcare system. Kennedy and Reagan took care of that and since then cases like that have massively increased in the USA.

So you seriously think this is completely normal behavior? Killing people in rage? Bringing a gun to a tournament, knowing very well that one will use it? You would do it too?
Alright. So be it. I will slowly move backwards now. Bye.

While I'm sure your psychiatry degree came from a very reputable school, "Psychopath" and "Sociopath" aren't just generic terms you can apply to whatever you want. They have specific definitions, and not everyone who has ever killed someone is diagnosed with one of them. Many, probably most, murderers exhibit none of the symptoms of any particular recognized mental illness.

I'm confused as to why you think humans in their natural state are non-violent and not prone to aggression, provoked or otherwise. Newsflash chief, we're still primates. Violence is in our nature, learning not to be violent is something we program into ourselves with our culture and education.

Serial killers invariably fall on the psychopathy spectrum. However, they commit a tiny fraction of the overall murders.

Humans are mammals, and still retain the flight-or-fight response that has evolved over millions of years to ensure our survival in a world filled with predators and other dangers. Our fight response is a temporary berserker rage that channels all of our energy and emotion into driving off the attacker with usually non-lethal violence. However, guns are a push-button death machine and force multiplier. Under the influence of the fight response, what may have been a broken nose between unarmed individuals becomes a murder when one is armed.

Mr. Tact wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 18:13:
I wonder if these "mass shooters" started showing up at NRA events if it would have an effect...

I've said this many times before: the only way the law changes is if congress gets shot up by a mass shooter and many congress people die. These politicians will do nothing unless it's in their own self interest.

To be clear, I'm not hoping for such an eventuality. I'm just noting the decades-long pattern.

NKD wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 18:00:
More importantly, how do you propose we detect and treat these people?

We start the Precrime division.

And how do we pay for it?

Taxes. And our souls for confining the precogs.

Muscular Beaver wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 20:30:
Gang Member: Psychopath, sociopath, lots of possibilities.
Husband: Same, or simply some forms of pathological problems. Have you ever read a tiny bit about psychology and mental illness? There are so many illnesses and different versions of those as well.
Detecting them isnt a that huge of a problem. A lot of them actually are being treated - with medication. And that often makes it worse. Of course the gang member wont go to the doctor and say "dude, I just killed a few people, I think I need treatment". Criminals are criminals. You will never be able to get rid of them completely. Unless you want to build in control chips...

The real problem is the pharmaceutical lobby and how the society finds it bad to properly treat people like that. That includes a proper mental healthcare system. Kennedy and Reagan took care of that and since then cases like that have massively increased in the USA.

So you seriously think this is completely normal behavior? Killing people in rage? Bringing a gun to a tournament, knowing very well that one will use it? You would do it too?
Alright. So be it. I will slowly move backwards now. Bye.

While I'm sure your psychiatry degree came from a very reputable school, "Psychopath" and "Sociopath" aren't just generic terms you can apply to whatever you want. They have specific definitions, and not everyone who has ever killed someone is diagnosed with one of them. Many, probably most, murderers exhibit none of the symptoms of any particular recognized mental illness.

I'm confused as to why you think humans in their natural state are non-violent and not prone to aggression, provoked or otherwise. Newsflash chief, we're still primates. Violence is in our nature, learning not to be violent is something we program into ourselves with our culture and education.

Muscular Beaver wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 20:56:
What about the several communities in the USA that are fully armed, open carry, etc. The most peaceful in the country. Almost no crime. You guys always ignore those.

In the USA theres many different cultures. Quite a few of them very violent, some even promote being "gangsta".

One thing I take issue with right there. You failed to make the correlation though you were on the right track. The ones who are 'most armed' are not the most peaceful places in the country. Why? Because they aren't what you think they are. The most 'armed' places tend to be inner-city gang turf - Chicago, Detroit, NYC, LA, St Louis, Tampa, Atlanta, Nashville...any inner-city is going to have gangs much like the prisons in the U.S. and you can bet that most of those gangs have more guns then you could probably imagine. Far more than some dude that goes hunting on the weekends or is part of the gun range at the club. And I can promise you, those gangs don't keep to the traditional 'Gentlemen's Duel' in order to settle differences... (though I admit that would be hilarious to see)

=-Rigs-=

Muscular Beaver wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 20:56:

RedEye9 wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 18:04:

Muscular Beaver wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 17:27:

NKD wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 10:36:
I have to wonder why everyone jumps immediately to mental illness, considering probably less than 1% of gun homicides in the US have anything to do with mental illness. Most of it is related to gangs, drugs, poverty, domestic violence. Those people aren't mentally ill, just assholes or people with shitty upbringing and shitty opportunities.

Because it is most of the time.
You think people like that are mentally healthy? Its funny how you guys try to find excuses. Wow...

The "you guys" statement, you're really hitting the low hanging fruit without even doing a cursory google search. It's funny how "you guys" can't be bothered to educate yourself on the subject. Wow ... sad

Well "You guys" might want to take some notes. Actual facts to follow. scary huh
1. Americans do not have more mental health issues than their cousins across the pond.
2. What we do have is guns, more than anyone else.

TLDR The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns.
What's that you say, guns. gtfo

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

You found a statistic that supports you. I dont care about statistics...

Alright. You choose to ignore facts & statistic and instead rely on your feelz.
So be it. I will slowly move backwards now. Bye Felicia.

RedEye9 wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 18:04:

Muscular Beaver wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 17:27:

NKD wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 10:36:
I have to wonder why everyone jumps immediately to mental illness, considering probably less than 1% of gun homicides in the US have anything to do with mental illness. Most of it is related to gangs, drugs, poverty, domestic violence. Those people aren't mentally ill, just assholes or people with shitty upbringing and shitty opportunities.

Because it is most of the time.
You think people like that are mentally healthy? Its funny how you guys try to find excuses. Wow...

The "you guys" statement, you're really hitting the low hanging fruit without even doing a cursory google search. It's funny how "you guys" can't be bothered to educate yourself on the subject. Wow ... sad

Well "You guys" might want to take some notes. Actual facts to follow. scary huh
1. Americans do not have more mental health issues than their cousins across the pond.
2. What we do have is guns, more than anyone else.

TLDR The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns.
What's that you say, guns. gtfo

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

Alright, you found a statistic that supports you. Or so you think.
I dont care about statistics, especially when its such a political topic like this. Even if there are statistics that prove you guys wrong, they are often called bullshit. You have no reason, but you just call them that. Cant ever be wrong, can we?
I have no political affiliation. I support whats supported by facts, no matter if it hurts me. Ive learned that over many decades.
I trust my own experiences. I have never seen so many mentally ill people running around free as in the USA. Its astonishing. Its so much, that Americans seem to take it as granted. Completely normal, since they think as long as they are peaceful, all is fine. But then they suddenly arent anymore and everyone blames guns... LOL

But lets say the USA has as many or as few as Europe, etc. The simple problem is, in other countries they get proper treatment. And they dont have to pay for it either, or not much.
Here you simply go to a clinic and tell them what problems you have and they will help you without issues. Even if its something as simple as temporary depression. You will get food, a room, a bed, and a doctor who will treat you properly and without medications as long time solution.

You always blaming guns is laughable, because other countries have a lot of guns as well, but they dont have this kind of violence.
Well, Australia and the UK tried to ban guns and suddenly murders with other weapons spiked. Weird, huh?
Plus you need to take the culture into account. For example you cant compare Japan to the USA, because Japan was always far far more peaceful and its people have a lot of honor, not to mention a very homogeneous population. They wont even take Muslim refugees.

What about the several communities in the USA that are fully armed, open carry, etc. The most peaceful in the country. Almost no crime. You guys always ignore those.

In the USA theres many different cultures. Quite a few of them very violent, some even promote being "gangsta".
You should compare the USA to Brazil. I havent found any better comparison. Sure, Brazil is much worse, but the social systems, the poverty, the massive gaps between classes and crime rate are very similar. The reasons for crime are as well.

And yes, "you guys" fits perfectly. Because you guys always only blame guns. That goes as far to claim these people are mentally healthy. Imagine! As if a gun whispers to its bearer to kill everyone around him.
Delusions. I think that can also be classified as mental illness.

NKD wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 18:00:

Because it is most of the time.
You think people like that are mentally healthy? Its funny how you guys try to find excuses. Wow...

You're trying to blame everything on "Mental illness made me do it.", and I'M the one making excuses?! What the actual fuck dude.

What mental illness is some gang member blasting some rival gang member suffering? What mental illness is some husband who kills his cheating wife suffering? More importantly, how do you propose we detect and treat these people? And how do we pay for it?

Gang Member: Psychopath, sociopath, lots of possibilities.
Husband: Same, or simply some forms of pathological problems. Have you ever read a tiny bit about psychology and mental illness? There are so many illnesses and different versions of those as well.
Detecting them isnt a that huge of a problem. A lot of them actually are being treated - with medication. And that often makes it worse. Of course the gang member wont go to the doctor and say "dude, I just killed a few people, I think I need treatment". Criminals are criminals. You will never be able to get rid of them completely. Unless you want to build in control chips...

The real problem is the pharmaceutical lobby and how the society finds it bad to properly treat people like that. That includes a proper mental healthcare system. Kennedy and Reagan took care of that and since then cases like that have massively increased in the USA.

So you seriously think this is completely normal behavior? Killing people in rage? Bringing a gun to a tournament, knowing very well that one will use it? You would do it too?
Alright. So be it. I will slowly move backwards now. Bye.

Rigs wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 20:10:

Beamer wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 14:33:
If you need a break from how depressing this all is, you can take your mind off of it by laughing at Milo crying about being a victim while claiming he's not making himself a victim while not realizing that being treated like an asshole while acting like an asshole to the point that you brag about being an asshole isn't unfair. Bonus points for him comparing himself favorably to Mike "No such thing as date rape" Cernovich and Alex "Gay Frogs" Jones.

This is a post in response to people being angry that he took their money to fund monthly videos but, rather than posting videos, he's posting $7.5k dinner bills. Instead of apologizing, he tells them that he's given up so much and it was all for them, not for him, everything he's done was for them. Like take their money and not give anything back. That was a sacrifice he made.

I know it's off-topic, but this kind of "misery" helps cheer me up and distract from the actual misery of this topic's event.

For some reason, while reading his little 'rant', I pictured a little like Youtube-type animation short of George Washington at his estate late one night, after the revolution and the war where he's totally sloshed and ranting on like Milo to Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin, slurring his words...

Washington: 'You...yous just don't understand the sacr-...*belch*...sacrifices I make for all of you! The thingss I've of given up...' *gets up from table and heads for front door, Jefferson and Franklin follow behind* '...the hundreds and hundreds of monies! ...*thinks about it*..'err, I mean, hundreds of pounds! ...do we still use pounds? *belch*..'ah, anyway! you know what I means! *bumps into hall table, Franklin steadies a very expensive vase*

*they walk through the front foyer of the home, Washington continuing to go on and on about the sacrifices only he's made for 'HIS grand republic!'. Suddenly he busts open the front door, spooking a nearby horse*

Washington: '..And what do I get in return for all that sacrifice?! What? This small estate?' he says, clinging to the door frame from falling over, bottle in one hand, gesturing to nowhere in particular. Franklin and Jefferson behind give inquisitive looks to each other, eye brows raised. 'I mazde this country! I gave this them their land! *takes another drink from the bottle* 'I didn't see them complaining when we finally pushed out the Redcoats!..*he states emphatically to the moon, totally forgetting Franklin and Jefferson behind him*...but, nowz? Now I tax some liquor and they call me...call me a tyrant? Fuckin' COMMIES!' *falls to the ground before Franklin can catch him*

Jefferson, quietly to Franklin: 'What's a 'commie'?'

Franklin: 'Not now' *sound of empty bottle rolling down wood steps*

=-Rigs-=

New ideas for drunk history
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Ove4_JsCM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYwND0CcID4

Beamer wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 14:33:
If you need a break from how depressing this all is, you can take your mind off of it by laughing at Milo crying about being a victim while claiming he's not making himself a victim while not realizing that being treated like an asshole while acting like an asshole to the point that you brag about being an asshole isn't unfair. Bonus points for him comparing himself favorably to Mike "No such thing as date rape" Cernovich and Alex "Gay Frogs" Jones.

This is a post in response to people being angry that he took their money to fund monthly videos but, rather than posting videos, he's posting $7.5k dinner bills. Instead of apologizing, he tells them that he's given up so much and it was all for them, not for him, everything he's done was for them. Like take their money and not give anything back. That was a sacrifice he made.

I know it's off-topic, but this kind of "misery" helps cheer me up and distract from the actual misery of this topic's event.

For some reason, while reading his little 'rant', I pictured a little like Youtube-type animation short of George Washington at his estate late one night, after the revolution and the war where he's totally sloshed and ranting on like Milo to Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin, slurring his words...

Washington: 'You...yous just don't understand the sacr-...*belch*...sacrifices I make for all of you! The thingss I've of given up...' *gets up from table and heads for front door, Jefferson and Franklin follow behind* '...the hundreds and hundreds of monies! ...*thinks about it*..'err, I mean, hundreds of pounds! ...do we still use pounds? *belch*..'ah, anyway! you know what I means! *bumps into hall table, Franklin steadies a very expensive vase*

*they walk through the front foyer of the home, Washington continuing to go on and on about the sacrifices only he's made for 'HIS grand republic!'. Suddenly he busts open the front door, spooking a nearby horse*

Washington: '..And what do I get in return for all that sacrifice?! What? This small estate?' he says, clinging to the door frame from falling over, bottle in one hand, gesturing to nowhere in particular. Franklin and Jefferson behind give inquisitive looks to each other, eye brows raised. 'I mazde this country! I gave this them their land! *takes another drink from the bottle* 'I didn't see them complaining when we finally pushed out the Redcoats!..*he states emphatically to the moon, totally forgetting Franklin and Jefferson behind him*...but, nowz? Now I tax some liquor and they call me...call me a tyrant? Fuckin' COMMIES!' *falls to the ground before Franklin can catch him*

Jefferson, quietly to Franklin: 'What's a 'commie'?'

Franklin: 'Not now' *sound of empty bottle rolling down wood steps*

=-Rigs-=

I wonder if these "mass shooters" started showing up at NRA events if it would have an effect...

Muscular Beaver wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 17:27:

NKD wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 10:36:
I have to wonder why everyone jumps immediately to mental illness, considering probably less than 1% of gun homicides in the US have anything to do with mental illness. Most of it is related to gangs, drugs, poverty, domestic violence. Those people aren't mentally ill, just assholes or people with shitty upbringing and shitty opportunities.

Because it is most of the time.
You think people like that are mentally healthy? Its funny how you guys try to find excuses. Wow...

The "you guys" statement, you're really hitting the low hanging fruit without even doing a cursory google search. It's funny how "you guys" can't be bothered to educate yourself on the subject. Wow ... sad

Well "You guys" might want to take some notes. Actual facts to follow. scary huh
1. Americans do not have more mental health issues than their cousins across the pond.
2. What we do have is guns, more than anyone else.

TLDR The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns.
What's that you say, guns. gtfo

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

Because it is most of the time.
You think people like that are mentally healthy? Its funny how you guys try to find excuses. Wow...

You're trying to blame everything on "Mental illness made me do it.", and I'M the one making excuses?! What the actual fuck dude.

What mental illness is some gang member blasting some rival gang member suffering? What mental illness is some husband who kills his cheating wife suffering? More importantly, how do you propose we detect and treat these people? And how do we pay for it?

NKD wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 10:36:
I have to wonder why everyone jumps immediately to mental illness, considering probably less than 1% of gun homicides in the US have anything to do with mental illness. Most of it is related to gangs, drugs, poverty, domestic violence. Those people aren't mentally ill, just assholes or people with shitty upbringing and shitty opportunities.

Because it is most of the time.
You think people like that are mentally healthy? Its funny how you guys try to find excuses. Wow...

If you need a break from how depressing this all is, you can take your mind off of it by laughing at Milo crying about being a victim while claiming he's not making himself a victim while not realizing that being treated like an asshole while acting like an asshole to the point that you brag about being an asshole isn't unfair. Bonus points for him comparing himself favorably to Mike "No such thing as date rape" Cernovich and Alex "Gay Frogs" Jones.

This is a post in response to people being angry that he took their money to fund monthly videos but, rather than posting videos, he's posting $7.5k dinner bills. Instead of apologizing, he tells them that he's given up so much and it was all for them, not for him, everything he's done was for them. Like take their money and not give anything back. That was a sacrifice he made.

I know it's off-topic, but this kind of "misery" helps cheer me up and distract from the actual misery of this topic's event.

Beamer wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 09:17:
So how do you change "we, as a culture?" Or do you just accept that this keeps going on?

When someone shot and killed a bunch of 6 year olds in a school, and congress did nothing .... was when the USA collectively decided it prefers mass shootings over gun control.

Ivanka tRump, in all her complicitness, tweeted

As we await further details, our hearts are with Jacksonville and all those affected by today’s tragic mass shooting. she added a cute little heart symbol
— Ivanka

Needless to say it did not bode well with people from planet earth.

"Your father is in bed with the NRA, he has removed barriers to mentally ill people getting weapons, and unless the perpetrator is a person of color, he will not give a damn. We have all the details we need," responded one Twitter user.

"After Parkland you & your father had an opportunity to affect real change in gun reform. Instead you chose the NRA. Your time in the White House is coming to an end. You'll leave knowing when you had a chance to save children's lives, you took the easy way out & stayed silent," added another.

Twitter, I take back everything bad I ever said about your shitty platform.

Agent.X7 wrote on Aug 27, 2018, 12:06:

It happens in other countries too. People don't like to remember that.

In industrialized nations, the rate is like once a decade.

In the US, the rate is dozens of times per year.