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Morning Tech Bits

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9. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 11, 2018, 22:18 heroin
 
I actually just bought a Rift ($400 w/ touch controllers and 2 sensors) last week. I haven't had much tracking troubles using roomscale with only 2 sensors. The only thing I don't like is the Oculus Home software. Beforehand I didn't do much research about what was out there. And yeah most of it is just garbage/tech demos.

But, straight up - it was worth it to me just for SkyrimVR & Beat Saber alone. There are some other gems too like Elite, Vanishing Realms, Knockout League, Sprint Vector, Budget Cuts, Compound (Wolfenstein-esque game), Rez Infinite, SuperhotVR, GORN, Mages Tale and that one game that is basically FTL in 3D, Quill is a fun little program to draw and sculpt huge landscapes in and even easy to animate... and don't forget about the (porn). I really wish VR would catch on because it's definitely something else.

 
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8. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 11, 2018, 17:45 Creston
 
For quite a while in its early days, Steam only had one guy who knew how to patch a game... It's a common story in badly run IT departments.

As for consumer interest in VR, it's because there's little of interest to play on it. Really the only dev who has made actual multiple games for it has been Bethesda. The rest all do shitty tech demos and game snippets.

Why would I spend 800 dollars on a full VR setup so I can play the equivalent of shitty indie games?
 
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7. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 11, 2018, 17:15 YourNick
 
HMD with the best resolution cost $800 (not including controllers and tracking equipment.) Cheaper to buy a $200 4K display. Too bad the current crop of 4K displays lack passive 3D.  
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6. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 11, 2018, 16:46 Cutter
 
Virtual tourism is something they should pursue vigorously. Overall price is still the limiting factor. No one wants to pay a grand for a system plus whatever it costs to have a PC that can run that system well - so a several thousand dollar investment for a lot of people. That's simply too much to ask for mainstream adoption.
 
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"I like oak myself, that's what's in my bedroom. How 'bout you Jimmie? You an oak man?"
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5. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 11, 2018, 16:07 HoSpanky
 
For what YOU used it for, yeah, severe disadvantage. I tried Elite Dangerous in VR, which is AMAZING when looking around the cockpit. Seeing targets? Not so much.

Youíre really missing out on what Vr allows for by playing what you already know, or something not really made for VR. Itís like going to the beach and insisting on playing football. The conditions are terrible for it, try something you canít do elsewhere, like parasailing.

In VR, that all translates to ďtry the room scale stuff, itís so much better than you thinkĒ. Budget Cuts is an awesome example of doing it right. Airmech Command is an RTS that would be unremarkable if it wasnít in VR. Vanishing Realms has unimpressive graphics, but you wonít care about it when you successfully throw a rock at a goblet perched 5 feet up on a ledge. VR isnít just the headset; if thatís as far as youíve taken it, youíve ignored the best use for VR. You absolutely canít use motion controls outside of VR. Itís the combination of an ďendless monitorĒ and controllers that are where your hands are, not putting your hands where the controllers are.

VR canít play every genre of game better than pancakes. Itís made for something else entirely. Try something it excels at, and your ďmehĒ opinion may be changed. Isnít the entire point of gaming to do something you havenít done before?
 
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4. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 11, 2018, 12:58 Scheherazade
 
HoSpanky wrote on Jul 11, 2018, 11:53:
Scheherazade, youíre half right. But you clearly werenít using it for its intended purpose.

- You shouldnít be playing anything in VR that plays competitively against pancake players, thatís a HUGE mistake. Letís ignore resolution entirely, as that will eventually be on par. What wonít ever ďcatch upĒ is our poor weak human bodies. You canít physically turn and aim like a pancake mouse/kB player. Something as simple as ducking is a quick button press, versus someone having to physically drop down.

-if you had any input lag, thatís not the current VR setupís fault unless you were using some off-brand thing. Vive and Rift both have no discernable input lag, unless the game itself is lagging. Considering you appeared to have been playing something that work on both Vr and pancake, I assume it was something that probably wasnít made for Vr to begin with, and has effects that can cause abysmal slowdown.

VR wonít ever look as pretty as pancake games do, because itís WAY more demanding. People who think it will eventually look just as good are technologically retarded. Resolution will improve, and the sooner devs and VR promoters push SLI, the faster itíll look better. Second gen headsets should include eye tracking and foveated rendering, allowing for higher resolution screens without as bad of a performance hit.

The benefit is the completely different way you play, and the possibilities allowed by it. If youíre just playing the same old things, thatís *your* mistake. The best VR titles keep the game ďcloseĒ...not just due to low resolution, but because thatís where the difference is best felt. Once an object is 75-100 feet away from you, depth perception matters less.

I donít think VR is ready for mass consumption yet. The current sets are there to make the tech available to anyone who wants to try to figure out how to best use this new medium. Games are weird and have no standard, like how pancake games all use WASD and a mouse to move now, but that wasnít always the case. VR is so alien in nature compared to how games are normally done that programmers still spend a HUGE amount of their development budget on basic interaction functionality.

So, I agree that VR isnít ready for prime time, but I do think your experience may have been sub-par. What were you playing, and playing ON?


I was mostly using it for DCS and WarThunder. The input is a joystick. No competitive issues with body constraints.

The shooters I tried were still with keyboard+mouse. The VR unit was basically a freelook.

(I have no interest in running around a room, or in VR sandbox titles. First and foremost I want to play the game I want to play.)


The input lag I am referring to is in the game itself. Present regardless of input device.
Eg. Frostbite games have terrible input lag, whereas ID Tech games have nearly no input lag.

Freelook delay using a monitor and mouse (or Track IR) doesn't matter, but in VR it is jarring. Any perceived uncoordinated motion is jarring.



Flight sims were interesting. The seated position maps perfectly to your in game position. The in game avatar would mirror your own self 1:1. Very convincing. With high framerate it was really awesome with only mild discomfort early on.

WarThunder unfortunately relies on spotting tiny dots in the distance to acquire targets. Not possible.
Monitor players would spot and identify me first, so I was always at the disadvantage.
The entertainment value of competition is a big factor, and having a big handicap is too frustrating.

DCS unfortunately has delay on freelook, and no amount of turning the settings down would fix it. The delay was murder.
Also, the HUD was not readable with the potato rez.
Neat enough in free flight, but basically unplayable.
Note that I haven't played it recently, and the new version could be better.

-scheherazade
 
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3. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 11, 2018, 12:31 robdot
 
It's the motion sickness, if your game is going to make people sick,they probably won't buy it. But that's just me, I could be wrong.  
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2. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 11, 2018, 11:53 HoSpanky
 
Scheherazade, youíre half right. But you clearly werenít using it for its intended purpose.

- You shouldnít be playing anything in VR that plays competitively against pancake players, thatís a HUGE mistake. Letís ignore resolution entirely, as that will eventually be on par. What wonít ever ďcatch upĒ is our poor weak human bodies. You canít physically turn and aim like a pancake mouse/kB player. Something as simple as ducking is a quick button press, versus someone having to physically drop down.

-if you had any input lag, thatís not the current VR setupís fault unless you were using some off-brand thing. Vive and Rift both have no discernable input lag, unless the game itself is lagging. Considering you appeared to have been playing something that work on both Vr and pancake, I assume it was something that probably wasnít made for Vr to begin with, and has effects that can cause abysmal slowdown.

VR wonít ever look as pretty as pancake games do, because itís WAY more demanding. People who think it will eventually look just as good are technologically retarded. Resolution will improve, and the sooner devs and VR promoters push SLI, the faster itíll look better. Second gen headsets should include eye tracking and foveated rendering, allowing for higher resolution screens without as bad of a performance hit.

The benefit is the completely different way you play, and the possibilities allowed by it. If youíre just playing the same old things, thatís *your* mistake. The best VR titles keep the game ďcloseĒ...not just due to low resolution, but because thatís where the difference is best felt. Once an object is 75-100 feet away from you, depth perception matters less.

I donít think VR is ready for mass consumption yet. The current sets are there to make the tech available to anyone who wants to try to figure out how to best use this new medium. Games are weird and have no standard, like how pancake games all use WASD and a mouse to move now, but that wasnít always the case. VR is so alien in nature compared to how games are normally done that programmers still spend a HUGE amount of their development budget on basic interaction functionality.

So, I agree that VR isnít ready for prime time, but I do think your experience may have been sub-par. What were you playing, and playing ON?
 
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1. Re: Morning Tech Bits Jul 11, 2018, 11:30 Scheherazade
 
As someone who has used VR : It is not ready.

Almost, but 2 or 3 years away from prime time.

The issues are mainly :

- Low resolution (standard rez, half per eye, stretched to 100 ish degrees, looks like ass. Realistically, 8k per eye would be 'fine'. Not even great.)

- GPU performance (even sli 1080's don't manage 120+ fps MINIMUM in every title at the current potato rez)

- Game input lag (effect is jarring, and illness inducing. Input needs to be early-quake-like immediate)

- Software distortion to skew the image causes 1/2 resolution of existing image (resampled pixel grid is fuzzier than the original)

- Software chromatic aberration correction shifts RGB channels independent of one another, further causing even more blur by pixel grid resampling (even MORE potato rez)


Basically, it looks like shit, and runs like shit - compared to a normal display.

This may not be an issue if you're playing some bubbly 3d platformer, or 3d tennis...

But when you try to play something that you would normally want to play, the inability to resolve distant objects is a competitive disadvantage. After you get your ass handed to you a few times by a monitor user, you go right back to a normal monitor.

+Rez nees to go up, a lot.

+GPUs need to get a lot faster.

+Games need to have more immediate controls.

+Lenses need to account for skewing and chromatic aberration. No more software resampling.

Till then, it's a waste of time [if you want it to replace a monitor for general purpose gaming].

-scheherazade

 
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