MattyC wrote on Jun 13, 2018, 04:46:

CJ_Parker wrote on Jun 13, 2018, 04:00:

Kajetan wrote on Jun 13, 2018, 01:31:

StingingVelvet wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 22:19:
Fallout 3 runs fine on Win7+, that's a ghost story.

It's not. There are problems with Win7+. GOG uses a fan fix for their version of Fallout 3 to ensure maximum compatability.

FO3 GOTY Steam version with the unofficial patch and NMC texture pack from the Nexus has been working absolutely flawless for me on Windows 10 (zero issues or crashes) and it also looks absolutely spectacular.

I will be sure to angrily suggest that to my Steam copy of Fallout 3 which doesn't work at all next time I try to play it...

I have no idea what might have changed, but the regular Fallout 3 that is on Steam crashes more than any game I have ever owned. FO3 was given out for free on the 360 which works fine (at least as far as I have tested it), so I guess if I ever want to play it again that is the route I will go.

The problem is Fallout 3 doesn't like it if your CPU has more than 2 cores/threads. Quad core CPUs started becoming common around the same time as Windows 7 was gaining users and it got attributed to being Windows 7's fault. It's a simple fix, change a couple of lines in the Fallout.ini.

bUseThreadedAI=1
iNumHWThreads=2

"The only way anyone can live in peace is if they're prepared to forgive." - The Doctor

WaltC wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 22:33:

everyone wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 18:35:
I am not living in the dark ages, as I have my main rig on Windows 10. But I have a "legacy PC" on XP which runs all my old games. Shame that I will have to get all these games reconfigured for a new OS. Steam should leave an old version of steam that will still run on old OS's. Migrating a large library of old games and game settings (many of them non-steam) from a 32 bit OS to a modern OS, is one of the biggest nightmares of modern PC gaming.

Really, the only nightmares to the very old games are the copy protection, some 16-bit file structures, and a few other things--which you can get past easily these days with the GOG versions of the games where available.

I have dozens of Win32 & DOS16 games and every single one runs terrifically on my latest version of Win10x64, build 17686.1000 (Insider's). Games going back 30 years plus run wonderfully. I find Win10 far more backwards-compatible than Win7 32/64, thought I'd mention it.

There are some caveats, however...;) All the old games you want to keep for the future I'd strongly advise picking up at GOG as the terrible stuff like ancient copy protection (DRM) and file structures for some games just won't run these days--unless you pick up the GOG versions--which do run extremely well and have all of the copy protection stripped out, and the ancient file structures, too--and these are all legal IP copies, as well. IMO, GOG does a much better job with the preservation of older games than Steam--lots of older Steam titles seem to have nothing done at all for them in terms of latter OS compatibility.

I see zero advantage to keeping a "legacy PC" (the actual hardware) around just to run older games, really--much more trouble than it's worth these days, imo. There's just no sense in it as either the titles have been updated to run on modern OSes or else will run fine on DOS emulators, etc., inside Win10x64--I've got ~285 GOG titles, ~60 Steam titles, and 30 Origin titles, ~10 Ubisoft titles and ~35 originals that I've made to run fine on Win10x64--and all run very well on versions of Win10x64 that aren't even available to the public yet. I prefer GOG because I get a complete installable copy of the game--every game--that's stripped of all DRM (Galaxy is *not* DRM, though some mistakenly think it is like Steamworks in that regard, and Galaxy is optional.) Don't need "offline mode" and all of that claptrap with GOG, etc. But not all the games I collect are available on GOG so I have to go Steam occasionally--have nothing against Steam except that it's more of a hassle and less user friendly than GOG, imo. Origin I have to have for the C&C classics I like to have in my collection--that's about it.

I've got at least one Myst title that *nobody* can get running with modern OSes (Exile)..;)...but the good news there is that the Myst guys have announced they are re-releasing all of the Myst games for Win10x64 in the next year or so--if not remastered then 100% native compatible. As for Abandonware--if you've got good working knowledge with DOs box (I prefer the SVN-Daum versions) then you already have a dos computer--no need to really go back to a '486 DOS rig...! Arggggghghghg...;) Lots of games are porting from DOSbox to SCUMMVM--which often works wonderfully well.

Ironically, the latter Win10x64 OS versions I've found to be a lot more compatible with older Windows games than Win7 in general. Basically, I can't recommend anything earlier than Win10x64, version 1803, build 17686.1000, believe it or not...I won't even look at Win 7 these days anymore--too much trouble--no payoff that I can see. Microsoft is putting a ton of effort into backwards-compatibility for Win10--especially beginning with version 1803 and the newer builds. It really pays, too.

Well, we all love to collect games--so just thought I'd chime in with what I like and what works for me....;) Happy gaming, guys!

You know that there are a lot of older titles on GOG that isn't compatible with Win10 but only Win7. And many older 3d-game titles doesn't work out of the box from GOG either. They mostly embed fan made fixes and patches and doesn't do a lot of work themselves.

They don't deserve every credit out there.

HorrorScope wrote on Jun 13, 2018, 10:30:
Those pointing towards GOG. It is just a matter of time there as well.

Yep, gog is about running older stuff on newer stuff* - not the other way around.

*At least that's what they used to be about, and have not yet rejected completely

Those pointing towards GOG. It is just a matter of time there as well.

With the new Update to Windows 10, which added simultaneous audio output over different physical outputs, like it was in Windows XP, I cant really see much reason to still use XP either. Maybe some old devices still only have 32 bit drivers, but you can use a Windows 7 or 8.1 32 bit version for that.

HOWEVER, there still needs to be done a LOT of work on Windows 10. For example, the pretty much ancient (but still current) USB Audio Class 2 is STILL not working properly again, while it worked fine in Windows 7.

Ozmodan wrote on Jun 13, 2018, 07:28:
I agree with WaltC, maintaining a XP machine is pure madness.

And a security disaster waiting to happen if you have it on an internet-connected network.

I agree with WaltC, maintaining a XP machine is pure madness.

CJ_Parker wrote on Jun 13, 2018, 04:00:

Kajetan wrote on Jun 13, 2018, 01:31:

StingingVelvet wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 22:19:
Fallout 3 runs fine on Win7+, that's a ghost story.

It's not. There are problems with Win7+. GOG uses a fan fix for their version of Fallout 3 to ensure maximum compatability.

FO3 GOTY Steam version with the unofficial patch and NMC texture pack from the Nexus has been working absolutely flawless for me on Windows 10 (zero issues or crashes) and it also looks absolutely spectacular.

I will be sure to angrily suggest that to my Steam copy of Fallout 3 which doesn't work at all next time I try to play it...

I have no idea what might have changed, but the regular Fallout 3 that is on Steam crashes more than any game I have ever owned. FO3 was given out for free on the 360 which works fine (at least as far as I have tested it), so I guess if I ever want to play it again that is the route I will go.

Kajetan wrote on Jun 13, 2018, 01:31:

StingingVelvet wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 22:19:
Fallout 3 runs fine on Win7+, that's a ghost story.

It's not. There are problems with Win7+. GOG uses a fan fix for their version of Fallout 3 to ensure maximum compatability.

FO3 GOTY Steam version with the unofficial patch and NMC texture pack from the Nexus has been working absolutely flawless for me on Windows 10 (zero issues or crashes) and it also looks absolutely spectacular.

the fix i did was right click on the the exe and choose compatibility mode. There were fan fixes (all it did was full screen borderless window) in the early days as this slowed the game down and made it jittery. modern PCs are fast enough not to need this. at least my PC was pc anyway.

StingingVelvet wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 22:19:
Fallout 3 runs fine on Win7+, that's a ghost story.

It's not. There are problems with Win7+. GOG uses a fan fix for their version of Fallout 3 to ensure maximum compatability.

Mr. Tact wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 20:07:

gsilver wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 18:26:
I like the way that this creates paradoxes for certain games, like Fallout 3, that don't run properly with Windows 7+

Interesting point. I'd be interested to hear how much work has been done to continue to support those OSes over the last year. I mean, they aren't getting updated right? So what is the problem? What is Vavle having to do?

That said, if only .22% of the customers are impacted, it's difficult to criticize them too much. And that's coming from someone who is still on Win7 for various reasons...

Back when I designed a plugin for IE that worked with our web site and files on the users machine... roughly 50% of our testing time and debugging time went into supporting Windows 95, 98, ME and NT4 (I think). Basically the developers (myself included) were on new XP and Vista machines and all the code there typically worked... but then we had to have countless bug reports and fixes for all the things that were different. Vista and NT4 had imcompatible security models (UAC is old news now, but was new at the time).

Plus IE worked different on each (especially NT4).

When we convinced them to drop 95, 98 and ME completely... (around the time Windows 7 came out)... it freed up a whole QA person and developer to work on new stuff instead of just patching old stuff.

I don't know how big Steam is, but I have no trouble believing keeping them going eats up a lot of testing and development time.

SunnyD wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 22:46:

warmbluelasers wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 18:44:
More business for GOG.

Win / Win!! Steam clears out their cruft, and the GoG guys make a few more bucks.

~Finis~

Really only just a few though.

warmbluelasers wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 18:44:
More business for GOG.

Win / Win!! Steam clears out their cruft, and the GoG guys make a few more bucks.

~Finis~

everyone wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 18:35:
I am not living in the dark ages, as I have my main rig on Windows 10. But I have a "legacy PC" on XP which runs all my old games. Shame that I will have to get all these games reconfigured for a new OS. Steam should leave an old version of steam that will still run on old OS's. Migrating a large library of old games and game settings (many of them non-steam) from a 32 bit OS to a modern OS, is one of the biggest nightmares of modern PC gaming.

Really, the only nightmares to the very old games are the copy protection, some 16-bit file structures, and a few other things--which you can get past easily these days with the GOG versions of the games where available.

I have dozens of Win32 & DOS16 games and every single one runs terrifically on my latest version of Win10x64, build 17686.1000 (Insider's). Games going back 30 years plus run wonderfully. I find Win10 far more backwards-compatible than Win7 32/64, thought I'd mention it.

There are some caveats, however...;) All the old games you want to keep for the future I'd strongly advise picking up at GOG as the terrible stuff like ancient copy protection (DRM) and file structures for some games just won't run these days--unless you pick up the GOG versions--which do run extremely well and have all of the copy protection stripped out, and the ancient file structures, too--and these are all legal IP copies, as well. IMO, GOG does a much better job with the preservation of older games than Steam--lots of older Steam titles seem to have nothing done at all for them in terms of latter OS compatibility.

I see zero advantage to keeping a "legacy PC" (the actual hardware) around just to run older games, really--much more trouble than it's worth these days, imo. There's just no sense in it as either the titles have been updated to run on modern OSes or else will run fine on DOS emulators, etc., inside Win10x64--I've got ~285 GOG titles, ~60 Steam titles, and 30 Origin titles, ~10 Ubisoft titles and ~35 originals that I've made to run fine on Win10x64--and all run very well on versions of Win10x64 that aren't even available to the public yet. I prefer GOG because I get a complete installable copy of the game--every game--that's stripped of all DRM (Galaxy is *not* DRM, though some mistakenly think it is like Steamworks in that regard, and Galaxy is optional.) Don't need "offline mode" and all of that claptrap with GOG, etc. But not all the games I collect are available on GOG so I have to go Steam occasionally--have nothing against Steam except that it's more of a hassle and less user friendly than GOG, imo. Origin I have to have for the C&C classics I like to have in my collection--that's about it.

I've got at least one Myst title that *nobody* can get running with modern OSes (Exile)..;)...but the good news there is that the Myst guys have announced they are re-releasing all of the Myst games for Win10x64 in the next year or so--if not remastered then 100% native compatible. As for Abandonware--if you've got good working knowledge with DOs box (I prefer the SVN-Daum versions) then you already have a dos computer--no need to really go back to a '486 DOS rig...! Arggggghghghg...;) Lots of games are porting from DOSbox to SCUMMVM--which often works wonderfully well.

Ironically, the latter Win10x64 OS versions I've found to be a lot more compatible with older Windows games than Win7 in general. Basically, I can't recommend anything earlier than Win10x64, version 1803, build 17686.1000, believe it or not...I won't even look at Win 7 these days anymore--too much trouble--no payoff that I can see. Microsoft is putting a ton of effort into backwards-compatibility for Win10--especially beginning with version 1803 and the newer builds. It really pays, too.

Well, we all love to collect games--so just thought I'd chime in with what I like and what works for me....;) Happy gaming, guys!

gsilver wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 18:26:
I like the way that this creates paradoxes for certain games, like Fallout 3, that don't run properly with Windows 7+

Fallout 3 runs fine on Win7+, that's a ghost story. In any event I do agree it's odd to have zero legacy support at all when they sell a lot of old games. They should have a legacy mode.

Bill Borre wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 18:28:
Steam has an offline mode. I'm assuming even the offline mode will be disabled for XP?

I doubt it, that would create needless ill will.

gsilver wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 18:26:
I like the way that this creates paradoxes for certain games, like Fallout 3, that don't run properly with Windows 7+

Interesting point. I'd be interested to hear how much work has been done to continue to support those OSes over the last year. I mean, they aren't getting updated right? So what is the problem? What is Vavle having to do?

That said, if only .22% of the customers are impacted, it's difficult to criticize them too much. And that's coming from someone who is still on Win7 for various reasons...

gsilver wrote on Jun 12, 2018, 18:26:
I like the way that this creates paradoxes for certain games, like Fallout 3, that don't run properly with Windows 7+

Has nothing to do with the game. It's about the Steam client itself. Valve doesn't want to continue support for platforms that Microsoft themselves no longer support.

I 200% have no problem with it...