Fantaz wrote on Apr 21, 2018, 20:17:
Maybe if singleplayer games were made more interesting, stood out, or did unique and better things then I feel it could easily draw in that generation player base and the trend would shift away

Currently getting a kick out of Kingdom Come Deliverance. This game kicks ass, like Witcher 3 kicked ass before it. Also been playing Conan Exiles not bad. Another game with gameplay adapted from Ark, had played Dark and Light in the past. I know survival games don't repreesent all multiplayer games but it's a big trend right now, after the trend of mmorpg has dried down. Of course the fad of the moment is Battle Royale games.... Well, I can't really say I associate originality and uniqueness with multiplayer games so I am not sure why single players would need to be more unique or original, quite the opposite I think multiplayer games are only good at following fads to make the next cash cow whereas single player games stand as games that do their own thing. And they usually end being fairly successful but it takes a labour of love to make them. I will take an eastern europe role playing game anytime over another Ark clone...

RedEye9 wrote on Apr 22, 2018, 11:10:

Prez wrote on Apr 22, 2018, 09:35:
There's no demonstrable evidence that a pirated stolen copy is a lost sale ..

Just like there is no source for your statement, even common sense says otherwise.

Certainly piracy impacts sales, but I'm also sure it's not 1:1. Note this is not a defense of piracy, but want to keep to the facts.

jacobvandy wrote on Apr 22, 2018, 14:16:

Leper wrote on Apr 22, 2018, 13:14:
I don't think Let's Plays should be allowed on these major sites (unless the company specifically allows it). It's like allowing someone to upload a movie to on Youtube and it's ok because they provide some commentary periodically. Gameplay is only one part of a game's value but that's the only part that you miss out on from watching a Let's Play.

I agree, but most devs/pubs encourage it as a form of free advertising. Nintendo is the only company I can think of that actively fights against this sort of thing, and people hate them for it, but it's probably necessary in order to maintain all the same IP rights they have now. Streaming clearly does not fall under fair use, and it makes you wonder if allowing it might set precedent for future changes in related laws that result in companies losing control of their properties.

Thats a battle companies will lose and deservedly so. Let's plays and streaming have gotten me to buy more games than not. Many of which I would have waited till the inevitable 1,3,6, 12 month sale for 50%+ off. I can actually see gameplay first hand and not rely on written word and a few screenshots. Nintendo's argument would be more tolerable if they weren't basically making the "content creators" their slaves. Even just 2-3 years ago they had a better argument when ad revenue was still up and clearly overhyped and not worth what companies paid for it. Now with ad revenue down on youtube especially it makes even less sense. People are watching streamers for what they bring personality wise (or cleavage) in playing/demo'ing a game.

Some games I will watch but have little interest in actually playing like Sea of thieves. It was fun to watch for a month especially with roleplayers haming it up but mostly boring now.

If we're going to treat streaming games under fair use like tv shows/movies and live broadcasts, games better be a hell of a lot cheaper and I don't mean Free to play with cosmetic items for money and surely not PTW either.

RedEye9 wrote on Apr 22, 2018, 11:10:

Prez wrote on Apr 22, 2018, 09:35:
There's no demonstrable evidence that a pirated stolen copy is a lost sale ..

Just like there is no source for your statement, even common sense says otherwise.

The lack of proof is all the source I need. There is none. "Common sense" is not evidence. I do, however, have anecdotal evidence that Let's Play's can produce sales, as I have bought games after watching a Let's Play that I otherwise would have had no interest in. And as to Beamer's point about puzzle and adventure games, I will watch a Let's Play for a puzzle or asventure game that I've already bought if I am stuck on a puzzle or want to see if there were other solutions. I did this with "The Sexy Brutale" after I bought it. Fantastic game btw - highly recommended.

This comment was edited on Apr 22, 2018, 15:24.

Leper wrote on Apr 22, 2018, 13:14:
I don't think Let's Plays should be allowed on these major sites (unless the company specifically allows it). It's like allowing someone to upload a movie to on Youtube and it's ok because they provide some commentary periodically. Gameplay is only one part of a game's value but that's the only part that you miss out on from watching a Let's Play.

I agree, but most devs/pubs encourage it as a form of free advertising. Nintendo is the only company I can think of that actively fights against this sort of thing, and people hate them for it, but it's probably necessary in order to maintain all the same IP rights they have now. Streaming clearly does not fall under fair use, and it makes you wonder if allowing it might set precedent for future changes in related laws that result in companies losing control of their properties.

I don't think Let's Plays should be allowed on these major sites (unless the company specifically allows it). It's like allowing someone to upload a movie to on Youtube and it's ok because they provide some commentary periodically. Gameplay is only one part of a game's value but that's the only part that you miss out on from watching a Let's Play.

SP games in which skill isn't the main draw are obviously hurt by lets plays. Common sense, right?

If you're making an FPS, then people will want to make those kills themselves. But if it's a puzzle or adventure game? Once you've seen the puzzles solved, why would you want to do it yourself? There's one solution, and you know it, so there's no joy (or point) in doing it yourself. A game like Myst or Monkey Island would be killed, as watching someone play shows all you need.

For those walking simulators, where the point is solely plot, it's like letting a Let's Play show The Terminator. Why would anyone buy it if they can see all there is for free?

Not saying the solution is stopping them, but there are absolutely genres where it causes lost sales.

CJ_Parker wrote on Apr 22, 2018, 11:46:
Well, who in their right mind would say that MP games are dying? I've never heard anyone say that except for specific cases like the classic subs based MMOs back in the mid 2000s.

It's been a while, sure, but we've gone through that phase. We've possibly even gone through it twice if you go back twenty years.

{snipped the rest of your stuff so the post doesn't get too long}

It's not becoming niche. Sure, publishers probably focus more on MP right now because they see easy MTX and easy dollars, but this idea that they're dying or in serious trouble is just fucking horseshit. Let me just go through a small list that I googled together in about 2 minutes of games that were released or very likely will be released in 2018 alone. (I'm even skipping over entire categories like platformers, RPGs and adventure games since those by definition are usually SP. And that's like a hundred games in those 3 categories alone.)

Far Cry 5, new God of War, new Spiderman game, Last of Us 2, Hideo Kojima's new game (Forgot the name), Mech Warrior 5, Vampyr, Surviving Mars, new Underworld game, new System Shock, new Bioshock (presumably), Ni No Kuni 2, Kingdom Come Deliverance, Metro Exodus.

I could keep going for a while, but eh, I'm already getting bored. These are all major titles, not tiny indie titles.

Is there a focus on mp games right now? Sure. Every publisher jizzes all over themselves thinking about MTX and loot boxes and selling map packs, etc. MP games are outselling sp games, sure. Will MP games keep the focus for the foreseeable future? Sure.

Will SP games die or become niche? Nah. They are a huge (YUUUUGE!) market that devs are always going to cater to.

Well, who in their right mind would say that MP games are dying? I've never heard anyone say that except for specific cases like the classic subs based MMOs back in the mid 2000s.

But other than that there has been a noticeable shift towards MP. The articles wondering about the absence of SP games after last year's E3 were all warranted. E3 was a strongly MP-focused circus. This year probably even more so.

Also consider that quite a few decent SP games have commercially flopped hard since then like Prey or Wolfenstein II. News like the next CoD not even getting a campaign anymore are not surprising nowadays.
SWBF2 got a campaign only because the SW fans whined hard enough but it was a disappointing four hour afterthought of a "campaign".

The signs are clear as day everywhere. Ghost Recon Wildlands has almost exclusively been receiving MP updates since its release. GTA V is only a thing anymore because of GTA Online. Bethesda won't be doing a new TES for "a very long time" because they ain't gonna cannibalize on TESO sales and MTX.

SP is not dead but it is becoming a niche for sure since, as the article states, it requires actual work, effort and content creation instead of just building a level, some basic gameplay and letting loose the dogs to play amongst themselves.

Oh, we're back on the SP horse again. I was kinda wondering which horse I had to ride this morning, it always seems to vacillate between SP Games Are Dying or MP Games Are Dying!

It's never just a "Both genres are doing pretty damn great."


This whole fucking moronic idea that devs are just going to say "You know, even though there's like a hundred million people out there that want SP games, we're just going to ignore them. We don't like money," is so fucking stupid, it literally defies description. Oh wait, it's IGN, so I guess the description could be "It's IGN-level retarded."

Prez wrote on Apr 22, 2018, 09:35:
There's no demonstrable evidence that a pirated stolen copy is a lost sale ..

Just like there is no source for your statement, even common sense says otherwise.

Let's Play's are the new piracy scapegoat. There's no demonstrable evidence that a pirated copy (or a watched stream) is a lost sale but this is an easy excuse for developers to fall back on.

eRe4s3r wrote on Apr 21, 2018, 18:54:
aside maybe emulated ;p (Last of Us comes to mind)

RPCS3 is making great strides lately. I too never got a chance to play Last Of Us, Or Ni No Kuni, or Journey.

HorrorScope wrote on Apr 21, 2018, 18:03:

SMITE wrote on Apr 21, 2018, 15:34:
I just don't understand the whole "passively watching other people play games" thing. If you don't have the option to play those games because you can't afford them or whatever, okay--I can kind of see that. But it feels like this generation somehow prefers watching others play. Which to me, is the epitome of lame.

Even if there were a generation that likes that, then if we don't, really we're more old then they are lame. There would be something there they can see that we can't and the beat goes on.

But as said, it's a gathering place to chat and hang out while watching.

Maybe if singleplayer games were made more interesting, stood out, or did unique and better things then I feel it could easily draw in that generation player base and the trend would shift away

Just as I watch Formula 1 on linear TV I watch streams and VODs.... it's just another media element to consume. Streams aligning to my times and entertainment needs are rare though.

Let's plays though, only games I can't play because no console will taint my pc haven aside maybe emulated ;p (Last of Us comes to mind)

I watch sports like football and basketball on one monitor while I game on another. I do the same with Twitch channels. I am interested you see...just not interested enough to focus all of my attention on it usually. Exceptions being "how to" or strategy videos. Obviously, gots to pay attention to those. Being able to ask or answer questions is nice in those cases. I have never really looked at it as social, but I guess technically it is.

I was slow to get into using Twitch but I have come to appreciate some of it's benefits. Madden was what pulled me into it and it has really helped to expand my game in a number of ways.

SMITE wrote on Apr 21, 2018, 15:34:
I just don't understand the whole "passively watching other people play games" thing. If you don't have the option to play those games because you can't afford them or whatever, okay--I can kind of see that. But it feels like this generation somehow prefers watching others play. Which to me, is the epitome of lame.

Even if there were a generation that likes that, then if we don't, really we're more old then they are lame. There would be something there they can see that we can't and the beat goes on.

But as said, it's a gathering place to chat and hang out while watching.

SMITE wrote on Apr 21, 2018, 15:34:
I just don't understand the whole "passively watching other people play games" thing. If you don't have the option to play those games because you can't afford them or whatever, okay--I can kind of see that. But it feels like this generation somehow prefers watching others play. Which to me, is the epitome of lame.

If the person is really adapt at the game you can learn skills by watching, so in that sense it can be a sort of tutorial. Other than that it's the personality of the person playing that draws you in, or not. I don't get the donating money to people playing games thing though, most streamers do call outs to people who donate so I guess it's half a second of validation by your new virtual friend.

SMITE wrote on Apr 21, 2018, 15:34:
I just don't understand the whole "passively watching other people play games" thing. If you don't have the option to play those games because you can't afford them or whatever, okay--I can kind of see that. But it feels like this generation somehow prefers watching others play. Which to me, is the epitome of lame.

It's more than just that though. There's a chat window, and people carry on conversations while watching the person play. It's like a virtual living room, so there's a social aspect. But yeah, I never watch streams.

I just don't understand the whole "passively watching other people play games" thing. If you don't have the option to play those games because you can't afford them or whatever, okay--I can kind of see that. But it feels like this generation somehow prefers watching others play. Which to me, is the epitome of lame.