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Op Ed

Why the games media has a diversity problem - this website especially • Eurogamer.net.
"I'm not here to argue why games websites should publish more women, because it is demeaning to have to argue in favour of my own existence, and that of people like me. The benefits of a diverse workforce, in media as elsewhere, are well-established. Instead, I want to talk about how they could."

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21. Re: Op Ed Apr 12, 2018, 10:15 Beamer
 
[quote="Agent.X7"Apr 11, 2018, 19:27"23400uack quack quack.

When I was a kid, women called people who played video games dorks, geeks, losers, etc. Sorry, it's a male dominated industry because society only recently decided that playing video games is mainstream and not only for losers and geeks. Blame your own gender for excluding themselves for so long.
Did all girls do that? Didn't some men do that? Didn't adults do that?
Don't some people still do that?
Are we holding actions of women in the 1980s against women in 2018?

Isn't it really a question of moderation and just how into something you are?
 
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20. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 19:27 Agent.X7
 
Quack quack quack.

When I was a kid, women called people who played video games dorks, geeks, losers, etc. Sorry, it's a male dominated industry because society only recently decided that playing video games is mainstream and not only for losers and geeks. Blame your own gender for excluding themselves for so long.
 
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19. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 18:55 RedEye9
 
dubfanatic wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 17:44:
Diversity also decreases social cohesion and trust (see Robert Putnam's research) but hey it's all good because at least corporations make more profits and we have better functioning soap dispensers
That's not the point he's trying to make, but you can twist it anyway you need to fit your sad narrative.
Prof. PUTNAM: Well, I don't know that I'm disappointed in the findings. I'm disappointed that it turns out it takes some time for us to get adjusted to people who look differently from us. And I'm a little disappointed that, as our findings become public, some people - some conservatives, some people who are racist, frankly, have taken comfort from my research. And they've made the inference that if we hunker down in the presence of diversity, it would be just great if we had a little ethnic cleansing and we all just live around people who look like us. That's absolutely not my view.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12802663
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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18. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 17:44 dubfanatic
 
jdreyer wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 14:21:
Prez wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 13:00:
I have to admit, when I saw the topic of the article my instant reaction was similar to Cutter's. It's not that I don't support diversity in gaming or indeed any workforce, it's just that I'm so friggin' tired of hearing about this.
Genuinely curious, when was the last time you read an article calling for diversity in the games media? I don't recall seeing one for a long while.

I think a big reason is because people seem to want diversity for diversity's sake - to avoid the stigma of being anti-diversity because it looks bad to people who care about such things, all because media outlets hire from a pool that consists largely of white males. So the answer is forced diversity? That is just stupid to me.
Diversity is always a plus in the US. We're a diverse nation, and the quality and appeal of companies and products improves with diversity. Diversity boosts profits. It also prevents accidental stupidity: a soap dispenser company in Europe built a bunch of automatic soap dispensers that failed to detect the hands of black people. A black person on staff could have prevented that eventuality.

Diversity also decreases social cohesion and trust (see Robert Putnam's research) but hey it's all good because at least corporations make more profits and we have better functioning soap dispensers
 
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17. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 16:14 chickenboo
 
Prez wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 14:55:

As far as the frequency, it seems to ebb and flow with the cultural focus on gender equality in society at large. I've read articles on the same theme several times already this year. If it actually struck me as an actual problem then I'm sure my threshold on the subject would be much higher but really it just doesn't.

You're not in the minority though, you're in the majority: a 25-45-something white male gamer. So it's somewhat natural for you (and me!) not to detect this as a problem. From this woman's perspective, though, it completely is a problem and she's writing to bring attention to that. I'm male too and I don't even think about this stuff, heck most of the time seeing a female by-line is a novelty. It shouldn't be, but it is. So while I feel like it doesn't affect me, it affects her, and if ~50% of gamers are female, they are totally justified in feeling underserved.
 
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16. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 15:59 Cutter
 
Prez wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 13:00:
I have to admit, when I saw the topic of the article my instant reaction was similar to Cutter's. It's not that I don't support diversity in gaming or indeed any workforce, it's just that I'm so friggin' tired of hearing about this. You could chalk that up to me being a "privileged white male" but I sincerely don't think that is the case. Truthfully I'm just plain sick of hearing about this. Credit to the author for at least offering up some solutions instead of just complaining but that doesn't change the fact that I'm way past my threshold of fatigue on this matter.

I think a big reason is because people seem to want diversity for diversity's sake - to avoid the stigma of being anti-diversity because it looks bad to people who care about such things, all because media outlets hire from a pool that consists largely of white males. So the answer is forced diversity? That is just stupid to me.

All of which can easily be summed up in two simple words.

Where is it written that life is fair? Nature doesn't give a fuck about equality. Point in fact it goes out of its way to demonstrate it doesn't exist in the natural world. Communism is great in theory, we've all see how the reality works out. I'm all for general fairness and a level playing field but their are limits. Limits which the snowflakes of the world today have long surpassed in their utterly asinine assumptions and demands. They all want it handed to them. They don't understand that to get ahead in life you have to compete. Don't wish for it, work for it.

 
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15. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 14:55 Prez
 
Quboid wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 14:27:
Prez wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 13:00:
I have to admit, when I saw the topic of the article my instant reaction was similar to Cutter's. It's not that I don't support diversity in gaming or indeed any workforce, it's just that I'm so friggin' tired of hearing about this. You could chalk that up to me being a "privileged white male" but I sincerely don't think that is the case. Truthfully I'm just plain sick of hearing about this. Credit to the author for at least offering up some solutions instead of just complaining but that doesn't change the fact that I'm way past my threshold of fatigue on this matter.

I think a big reason is because people seem to want diversity for diversity's sake - to avoid the stigma of being anti-diversity because it looks bad to people who care about such things, all because media outlets hire from a pool that consists largely of white males. So the answer is forced diversity? That is just stupid to me.

The article isn't arguing for forced diversity.

How often do you hear about this? For all the emotion it causes, I personally don't see or hear that much on the subject of women in video games. The conversation that broke out a few years ago has largely subsided, merging into wider gender politics.

I agree the article is calling for a longer game than forcing diversity. What made me feel that this is what it's going to end up coming to is the nauseatingly pandering forward written by Eurogamer. I should have been more clear. All in all I think the article itself was not terrible, though I take major issue with her assertion that it is the media outlet's job to take steps to get women more interested in the field so there is a more diverse pool to hire from.

As far as the frequency, it seems to ebb and flow with the cultural focus on gender equality in society at large. I've read articles on the same theme several times already this year. If it actually struck me as an actual problem then I'm sure my threshold on the subject would be much higher but really it just doesn't.

This comment was edited on Apr 11, 2018, 15:19.
 
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14. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 14:52 Quboid
 
Tipsy McStagger wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 14:39:
In a lot of ways you might be right. I did "fill in the blanks" in the objectiveness of the article.

You don't write an article like this without wanting more diversification. This is definitely a "I'm not trying to sound like a social justice warrior but...." type of article.

I'm just jaded like cutter and Prez about this topic.

Fair enough. Thank you for talking about it like one of those two wouldn't. I don't doubt she wants more diversity and I do detect a tone of reluctance - I see it more as "I don't want a shitstorm" than "I don't want to sound like a SJW" but that's a matter of perspective.
 
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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13. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 14:42 NKD
 
Diversity is great because you get more points of view and it helps you not find yourself in a bubble. However, I don't think it should be expected or actively pursued in every field. Sometimes the people interested in one particularly thing just aren't as diverse as the people interested in something else.

We should examine situations to see whether there's some systemic roadblock keeping other types of people out of these fields, but if it's simply a lack of interest I'm not sure what you're supposed to do. Almost no profession or hobby reflects the demographic of the general populous.
 
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12. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 14:39 Tipsy McStagger
 
Quboid wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 14:12:
Maybe read it again, this time not obsessing about whether or not men are being blamed.

"risk upsetting their business model by putting diversification first"
That's not what it says.

"DIVERSIFY NOW BECAUSE WE DEMAND IT!"
That's not what it says.

"is that the mens fault?"
That's not what it claims.

"can't take criticism"
That's not what it says.

"DIVERSIFY for the sake of DIVERSIFICATION"
That's not what it says.

"there's no conspiracy against it"
That's not what it claims.

"companies don't need to start hiring only women"
That's not what it claims.

"it's called progress and it doesn't happen overnight"
That *is* what it says.

You call out things that aren't there and your rebuttal is something that is there. Seriously, what are you reading? It's an article about *how* to increase diversity, not why, where are you getting the things that you highlight in allcaps?

That's the irony. You indulge in a paranoid fantasy about paranoid fantasies, describing your own imagination as "just stupid", thereby becoming one of the "crazy people" who make a problem out of nothing.

In a lot of ways you might be right. I did "fill in the blanks" in the objectiveness of the article.

You don't write an article like this without wanting more diversification. This is definitely a "I'm not trying to sound like a social justice warrior but...." type of article.

I'm just jaded like cutter and Prez about this topic.
 
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11. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 14:27 Quboid
 
Prez wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 13:00:
I have to admit, when I saw the topic of the article my instant reaction was similar to Cutter's. It's not that I don't support diversity in gaming or indeed any workforce, it's just that I'm so friggin' tired of hearing about this. You could chalk that up to me being a "privileged white male" but I sincerely don't think that is the case. Truthfully I'm just plain sick of hearing about this. Credit to the author for at least offering up some solutions instead of just complaining but that doesn't change the fact that I'm way past my threshold of fatigue on this matter.

I think a big reason is because people seem to want diversity for diversity's sake - to avoid the stigma of being anti-diversity because it looks bad to people who care about such things, all because media outlets hire from a pool that consists largely of white males. So the answer is forced diversity? That is just stupid to me.

The article isn't arguing for forced diversity.

How often do you hear about this? For all the emotion it causes, I personally don't see or hear that much on the subject of women in video games. The conversation that broke out a few years ago has largely subsided, merging into wider gender politics.
 
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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10. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 14:22 Beamer
 
People do realize diversity is a thing, right? There is a lot of diversity, as people will often point out, and we want a lot of diversity. You don't want a general interest video game review site to have solely Modern Warfare fans writing their reviews, otherwise every non-military-FPS will get low marks. You want diversity of interests.

Some here seem to imply women have different interests. But we know they make up ~50% of video gamers. So wouldn't it make sense to have their point of view represented? Why is pointing that out so offensive to people? Because we have penises, not vaginas, so we fear it means someone like us may not get hired?

Great, maybe someone like us shouldn't. If all else is equal (and it generally can be), you want a voice not like the voices you already have. If your video game review site is full of people obsessed with flight sims, it probably makes sense to hire a new reviewer obsessed with something not well covered.

Speaking of, this is why I always liked CGR's reviews. 3 reviewers meant less depth to the reviews, but three points of view. For games not universally awful or terrible, you'd get one guy who loved it and one guy who hated it, and be able to read why and figure out which were more like you.
 
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9. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 14:21 jdreyer
 
Prez wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 13:00:
I have to admit, when I saw the topic of the article my instant reaction was similar to Cutter's. It's not that I don't support diversity in gaming or indeed any workforce, it's just that I'm so friggin' tired of hearing about this.
Genuinely curious, when was the last time you read an article calling for diversity in the games media? I don't recall seeing one for a long while.

I think a big reason is because people seem to want diversity for diversity's sake - to avoid the stigma of being anti-diversity because it looks bad to people who care about such things, all because media outlets hire from a pool that consists largely of white males. So the answer is forced diversity? That is just stupid to me.
Diversity is always a plus in the US. We're a diverse nation, and the quality and appeal of companies and products improves with diversity. Diversity boosts profits. It also prevents accidental stupidity: a soap dispenser company in Europe built a bunch of automatic soap dispensers that failed to detect the hands of black people. A black person on staff could have prevented that eventuality.
 
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8. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 14:12 Quboid
 
Maybe read it again, this time not obsessing about whether or not men are being blamed.

"risk upsetting their business model by putting diversification first"
That's not what it says.

"DIVERSIFY NOW BECAUSE WE DEMAND IT!"
That's not what it says.

"is that the mens fault?"
That's not what it claims.

"can't take criticism"
That's not what it says.

"DIVERSIFY for the sake of DIVERSIFICATION"
That's not what it says.

"there's no conspiracy against it"
That's not what it claims.

"companies don't need to start hiring only women"
That's not what it claims.

"it's called progress and it doesn't happen overnight"
That *is* what it says.

You call out things that aren't there and your rebuttal is something that is there. Seriously, what are you reading? It's an article about *how* to increase diversity, not why, where are you getting the things that you highlight in allcaps?

That's the irony. You indulge in a paranoid fantasy about paranoid fantasies, describing your own imagination as "just stupid", thereby becoming one of the "crazy people" who make a problem out of nothing.
 
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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7. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 14:00 Tipsy McStagger
 
Quboid wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 12:12:
Tipsy McStagger wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 11:48:
Didn't actually read the article because these just infuriate me with people complaining about stuff that is extremely stupid.

A)Writers who are women that don't play videogames won't write about shit that doesn't interest them.
B)If you think there's a huge problem, why not start your own website and start publishing it yourself you whiny little babies.

That's got absolutely nothing to do with the article. Even the blurb tells you that this is a woman writing on a video game website.

Tipsy McStagger wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 11:48:
Crazy people always make problems out of nothing. NOTHING. There isn't this secret society of male writers that don't want female writers to take their jobs or something. That's just stupid.

Oh the irony...

Ended up reading the article and it made me mad. It just stinks of social justice warrior. DIVERSIFY NOW BECAUSE WE DEMAND IT! No company with a working business model is going to risk upsetting their business model by putting diversification first before skill and experience.


So her points are:
-Women don't apply for male dominated work force (and? is that the mens fault?)
-Women don't apply for jobs they aren't qualified for as often as men (mens fault?)
-"I do not think that a lack of female contributors necessarily indicates sexism or bias against women. But it does indicate a lack of effort in talent development, and a certain complacency that should urgently be addressed." So wait, they should hire more women just because they should hire more women?
-There's a lack of women in leadership roles in the industry (Probably because the talent is only coming on around now, there's more women playing video games now because society has changed over time, parents aren't forcing their girls to do ballet and putting them into all sports, it's called progress and it doesn't happen over night)
-Videogame writers get trolled often and lots of women quit because they can't deal (Derp, have they played video games? it's not like the targeted audience is highly educated people only, it's a shit mix of immature poor people to the filthy rich whales with no time) This shit happens to males too. In my industry of Engineering which is male dominated, guy who can't take criticism for when problems/disagreements happen don't last long.

There is no problem here. A problem indicates something that needs to be fixed. This doesn't NEED to be fixed, this whole article is the point of trying to DIVERSIFY for the sake of DIVERSIFICATION.

Over time, these women who applied to a male dominated work force will become the leaders, there's no conspiracy against it. These companies don't need to start hiring only women. It'll slowly go that way anyways over time while the talent pool grows and the smart dedicated ones want to get ahead.
 
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6. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 13:26 theglaze
 
Prez wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 13:00:
people seem to want diversity for diversity's sake - to avoid the stigma of being anti-diversity because it looks bad to people who care about such things

I totally agree.
 
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5. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 13:00 Prez
 
I have to admit, when I saw the topic of the article my instant reaction was similar to Cutter's. It's not that I don't support diversity in gaming or indeed any workforce, it's just that I'm so friggin' tired of hearing about this. You could chalk that up to me being a "privileged white male" but I sincerely don't think that is the case. Truthfully I'm just plain sick of hearing about this. Credit to the author for at least offering up some solutions instead of just complaining but that doesn't change the fact that I'm way past my threshold of fatigue on this matter.

I think a big reason is because people seem to want diversity for diversity's sake - to avoid the stigma of being anti-diversity because it looks bad to people who care about such things, all because media outlets hire from a pool that consists largely of white males. So the answer is forced diversity? That is just stupid to me.
 
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4. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 12:15 Beamer
 
Why do you think this has anything to do with writers that don't play video games?

And Cutter: articulate, insightful, and empathetic as always. Amazon angers him so he'll make a thousand posts about it needing to change without being able to give specifics, but mention women and we're lucky to not get an immediately removed post.
 
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3. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 12:12 Quboid
 
Tipsy McStagger wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 11:48:
Didn't actually read the article because these just infuriate me with people complaining about stuff that is extremely stupid.

A)Writers who are women that don't play videogames won't write about shit that doesn't interest them.
B)If you think there's a huge problem, why not start your own website and start publishing it yourself you whiny little babies.

That's got absolutely nothing to do with the article. Even the blurb tells you that this is a woman writing on a video game website.

Tipsy McStagger wrote on Apr 11, 2018, 11:48:
Crazy people always make problems out of nothing. NOTHING. There isn't this secret society of male writers that don't want female writers to take their jobs or something. That's just stupid.

Oh the irony...
 
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2. Re: Op Ed Apr 11, 2018, 12:00 Cutter
 
Fuck off.
 
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