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Out of the Blue

Well, we survived the bomb cyclone, and the ensuing rain combined with the mild temperatures so that after hours of snow, we ended up with less snow on the ground than we had when the snow started. We had a surprisingly close call along the way, though. A fairly substantial tree across the street snapped at the base due to high wind and some dry rot. The wind was blowing perpendicular to the street, but this sucker fought that to fall 45 cross-wind in an effort to reach my car. This was dramatically close, I'd say the tips of the branches were about two feet from the car when it came to rest. The neighbor across the street wasn't so lucky, as the tree yanked the electrical main right out of her house, and as far as we can see, this still hasn't been fixed, though the tree was cleared after a few hours. It's clear out there now, but not calm, as the high winds persist, presumably hunting for more vulnerable trees to separate from the herd.

Links: Thanks Ant.
Play: Feudal Wars.
Stories: "Six Billion Dollar Man" Set For 2019.
Warren Beatty , Faye Dunaway will give Oscars 2018 a Hollywood ending.
Science: Stephen Hawking Claims To Know What Happened Before The Big Bang.
Media: FORTNITE (Honest Game Trailers).
HeroStorm Ep37 '360 No Hope.'
Jennifer Lawrence Takes a Lie Detector Test. Thanks RedEye9.
Follow-up: At least 6 dead as Nor'easter slams East Coast with violent wind, rain, snow and floods.
The Funnies: Adult Children.

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35. Re: Re: Out of the Blue Mar 6, 2018, 12:55 Rigs
 
Kxmode wrote on Mar 5, 2018, 23:25:
It has the ideal eco-system and enclosed system for sustaining millions of life forms.

You mean humans. It's a perfect world (that we know of at this point in time) for humans. Since we don't really have any other reference or experience on other worlds to dictate otherwise, we have to come to that conclusion. But then, what about the theories that life was planted here by a crashing comet? Then we wouldn't be indigenous to the planet at all and our true 'home' is unknown to us. What happens when we find out that Mars was our 'true' home and that it's conditions were a lot different from how it is now back when we were transplanted? Then does 'the heavens and the Earth' mean Mars? Obviously it's not true now but there's a good possibility it could be in the future. What then?

=-Rigs-=
 
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34. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 6, 2018, 07:12 Mr. Tact
 
jdreyer wrote on Mar 6, 2018, 03:06:
Not sure why you think the solution is to colonize other planets. It only took us a few hundred years to wreck this one. What makes you think we'll treat a new planet any differently?
In the "short term", I don't. However, I have a small hope that eventually, read that as probably several centuries at least, we might get our act together. By then, assuming we are on other planets (a very iffy assumption) I'm guessing Earth will be a less than desirable place to live.

Two discoveries which would help matters significantly: 1) figuring out how to manipulate gravity 2) some sort of cheap, easy, small, clean, scalable power generation.
 
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33. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 6, 2018, 03:06 jdreyer
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Mar 4, 2018, 11:56:
eRe4s3r wrote on Mar 4, 2018, 11:12:
But either way, we can never know anything bout the big bang as it's not observable and laws of physics don't even apply, so why bother. Would be more important to make sure we can survive the coming cold death of the entire universe, assuming we even survive the next 50 years that is ;p
The number of problems we'll face which can possibly lead to the extinction of the human race is probably only slightly less than the number of years before we have to worry about an astronomical end to the planet. Nuclear waste, plastics, chemicals in general, over population, disease, and on and on. The real question is can we survive long enough and advance technology enough to spread humans off this planet, preferably to other solar systems?

Frankly, based on the last decade I'm not liking our chances...
Not sure why you think the solution is to colonize other planets. It only took us a few hundred years to wreck this one. What makes you think we'll treat a new planet any differently?
 
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32. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 5, 2018, 23:25 Kxmode
 
El Pit wrote on Mar 4, 2018, 10:03:
Whatever. Even Jehovah cannot finish Star Citizen. But IF it ever gets finished, it will create a singularity, leading to the collapse of the universe into an inverse black hole i.e. a big bang. And then energy/matter will spread (and hence time with it) and...

...a new Star Citizen will get kickstarted.

Actually, the universe took 10 billion years from singularity until work on the earth began. Yes, a 10 billion-year-long project. The earth another 4 billion. But unlike Star Citizen, everything is perfect. There are no flaws in the universe or on earth (even when humans cause significant damage to the planet). It has the ideal eco-system and enclosed system for sustaining millions of life forms.

El Pit wrote on Mar 4, 2018, 10:03:
What is really interesting is that Hawking said that "Even the amount of matter in the universe can be different to what it was before the Big Bang" - that is something I find hard to swallow. Because where did the energy go that would be the difference between the amount of energy in our universe and whatever (sort of) existed before it. Yeah, I know that this "before" means there was actually a time before time itself existed as we understand it. It's a bit tricky, isn't it?

The Bible doesn't say how the universe began. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God create the heavens and the earth." That's as far as it goes into details about the birth of the universe. As a Christian, I am not against believing the "big bang" as a super-massive singularity that birthed the universe. However, the "big bang" alone only explains the WHY. It never reveals WHO or WHAT started it. What I don't subscribe to is the notion that it all happened by random chance.
 
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William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 1: Aboard the rebel ship. / Enter C-3PO and R2-D2. / C-3PO: "Now is the summer of our happiness / Made winter by this sudden, fierce attack!" / R2-D2 Beep beep, Beep, beep, meep, squeak, beep, whee!
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31. Re: Re: Out of the Blue Mar 5, 2018, 23:21 Beamer
 
Kxmode wrote on Mar 5, 2018, 23:11:
Beamer wrote on Mar 4, 2018, 09:59:
Wait, now you're claiming Jesus is 14 billion years old?

This stuff isn't in any organized religion, is it? This seems 100% kxmode. And an inch away from believing in something like David koresh.

A lot of stuff isn't in any organized religion. Like, for example, God's proper name or he insistence that Jesus is Almighty God, when there countless verses that repeatedly state otherwise. However, it's not hard to come to a conclusion when you have both pieces of information.

Bible: (Colossians 1:15,16) He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible

Science: Space.com from Jun 7, 2017 - "In 2012, WMAP estimated the age of the universe to be 13.772 billion years, with an uncertainty of 59 million years. In 2013, Planck measured the age of the universe at 13.82 billion years."

You extrapolate the two to come to a reasonable answer. That's what scientists do.

So, you're a JW, but against the teachings of JW, you believe Jesus is 14 billion years old. That's quite a difference of opinion.

Have you ever discussed these beliefs with any church elders?
 
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30. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 5, 2018, 23:13 Kxmode
 
StingingVelvet wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 22:14:
Lost power for 24 hours but no tree assaults, thank darkmatter.

Shout out to dark energy for keeping my planet off the skeets.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 1: Aboard the rebel ship. / Enter C-3PO and R2-D2. / C-3PO: "Now is the summer of our happiness / Made winter by this sudden, fierce attack!" / R2-D2 Beep beep, Beep, beep, meep, squeak, beep, whee!
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29. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 5, 2018, 23:11 Kxmode
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 4, 2018, 09:59:
Wait, now you're claiming Jesus is 14 billion years old?

This stuff isn't in any organized religion, is it? This seems 100% kxmode. And an inch away from believing in something like David koresh.

A lot of stuff isn't in any organized religion. Like, for example, God's proper name or the insistence that Jesus is Almighty God, when there are countless verses that state otherwise. However, it's not hard to come to a conclusion when you have both pieces of information.

Bible: (Colossians 1:15,16) He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible

Science: Space.com from Jun 7, 2017 - "In 2012, WMAP estimated the age of the universe to be 13.772 billion years, with an uncertainty of 59 million years. In 2013, Planck measured the age of the universe at 13.82 billion years."

You extrapolate the two to come to a reasonable answer. That's what scientists do.

Typo: changed "he insistence" to "the insistence"

This comment was edited on Mar 7, 2018, 19:35.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 1: Aboard the rebel ship. / Enter C-3PO and R2-D2. / C-3PO: "Now is the summer of our happiness / Made winter by this sudden, fierce attack!" / R2-D2 Beep beep, Beep, beep, meep, squeak, beep, whee!
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28. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 5, 2018, 23:03 Kxmode
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 19:13:
Kxmode wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 18:49:
Stephen Hawking's knows a great deal, but when it comes to what happened before the big bang,
Man, are you dense. Hawking didn't claim to know anything about what happened prior to the big bang. The headline is a lie. As I said before -- Hawking basically implies the question doesn't make any sense.

Hawking did not basically imply the question doesn't make any sense. Go read the article. He's giving plenty of concrete "here's what happened" answers and statements. That implies he knows WHAT happened before the singularity that birthed the universe.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 1: Aboard the rebel ship. / Enter C-3PO and R2-D2. / C-3PO: "Now is the summer of our happiness / Made winter by this sudden, fierce attack!" / R2-D2 Beep beep, Beep, beep, meep, squeak, beep, whee!
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27. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 5, 2018, 03:13 NKD
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Mar 4, 2018, 23:41:

I doubt humanity will be around for that particular issue.

Yeah, even if we have descendants alive in 2 trillion years, they won't be even remotely human. They may not even be organic.
 
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I keep warning you. Doors and corners, kid. That's where they get you. Humans are too fucking stupid to listen.
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26. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 4, 2018, 23:41 Mr. Tact
 
I agree the idea of an intelligent race which is around when space has expanded to the point which there are no other visible galaxies is an interesting thought experiment. Even if they had records either from their own species or some other source explaining everything humans currently know about the universe would they believe it without being able to verify any of it themselves? Would it be considered religious nonsense?

I doubt humanity will be around for that particular issue.
 
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25. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 4, 2018, 22:58 eRe4s3r
 
NKD wrote on Mar 4, 2018, 11:00:
Why even engage with Kxmode on scientific topics? He won't argue honestly, and if (when) he gets the science wrong, he'll fall back on some good ol' Biblical Literalism that not even most Christians buy into. His argument is always the same "We don't know everything, so we know nothing."

I'm not a physicist, but it's likely impossible to know what happened "before" the Big Bang, and that's just a clickbait title not reflective of what Hawking said anyway.

Even if we imagine the existence of some kind of multiverse-spanning meta-time that allows for a linear sequence of events that led to the Big Bang, we can't even make any educated guesses. We can only know things we observe, or things we can infer mathematically from things we observe. The Higgs boson is a good example. We hadn't even observed it, but the Standard Model predicted it would be there, and we set out to prove or disprove it.

That's science. Make a prediction, test the prediction. If the model you are using keeps passing the test of experiment, you know you are on the right track.

Physics is really just math. If there's something that doesn't add up, you figure out what would need to go there to make it add up, and then try to find it to see if you are correct. Kxmode mentioned dark matter/dark energy. Well, dark matter is more like dark gravity. It may actually have nothing to do with baryonic matter. We don't know its nature, but we can observe its effects and make calculations based on those effects.

But knowing what happened "before" the Big Bang is like trying to solve a math problem where you don't know, and can't know, ANY of the numbers, or even how many variables there are, or even the mathematical rules involved.

It is thought by many physicists that the rules that govern our universe are largely arbitrary, based on random events in the earliest moments of the Big Bang where certain fields "froze" in a certain way that set the constants. There could be universes where time is weird and there is no concept of cause-and-effect. There could be universes where there are no stars or planets because gravity doesn't exist.

There are always going to be limits to what we can know, or to what degree of precision we can know something. 2 trillion years from now, there will likely be a scientist somewhere in our universe that has set about observing the night sky. Because of inflation, this scientist will not have the same data we do. The cosmic microwave background, and all the surrounding galaxies, will have red-shifted beyond the point where they can be observed by any possible technology. (The wavelength would be wider than the galaxy.) That scientist will only be able to observe their own galaxy. A very large galaxy made up of all the galaxies that were close enough to each other that the gravity pulling them together won out over the rate of inflation. Because of the inability to observe Type Ia supernovae, or other extremely distant phenomena in other galaxies, it's unlikely that this scientist could ever find evidence that inflation even exists. His observable universe is too small in scale for the effects of inflation to be observable. And without that, he cannot mathematically infer that there were ever other galaxies, and would likely never be able to find out about the Big Bang.

That knowledge would be forever locked away from him unless he found some kind of data preserved by civilizations that existed during our time. And even then, he wouldn't be able to independently verify the data.

But we're a long ways off from running out of things to learn.

I always found it amazing a thought that a civilization and species long after us would find a nearly completely black sky with no bright stars aside from their own, and likely wrongly infer from that that they are unique in the system as their perceivable universe would only be 1 solar system and maybe the faintest trace of a cluster of stars around them. But without bright stars in the sky, would humans have looked up? Would humans have reached out?

And more importantly, as the entropic death approaches higher civilizations (synthetic ones) might only even start to revive because they waited for temperatures in the universe to drop so that they can do "free" superconductivity in galaxy sized super computers.
 
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24. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 4, 2018, 11:56 Mr. Tact
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Mar 4, 2018, 11:12:
But either way, we can never know anything bout the big bang as it's not observable and laws of physics don't even apply, so why bother. Would be more important to make sure we can survive the coming cold death of the entire universe, assuming we even survive the next 50 years that is ;p
The number of problems we'll face which can possibly lead to the extinction of the human race is probably only slightly less than the number of years before we have to worry about an astronomical end to the planet. Nuclear waste, plastics, chemicals in general, over population, disease, and on and on. The real question is can we survive long enough and advance technology enough to spread humans off this planet, preferably to other solar systems?

Frankly, based on the last decade I'm not liking our chances...
 
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23. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 4, 2018, 11:12 eRe4s3r
 
El Pit wrote on Mar 4, 2018, 10:03:
What is really interesting is that Hawking said that "Even the amount of matter in the universe can be different to what it was before the Big Bang" - that is something I find hard to swallow. Because where did the energy go that would be the difference between the amount of energy in our universe and whatever (sort of) existed before it. Yeah, I know that this "before" means there was actually a time before time itself existed as we understand it. It's a bit tricky, isn't it?

Nah, he says that time never ceased to exist within the singularity, time always existed before and after, but during the singularity time was stretched and before the singularity no space existed... which is a really fancy way of saying that time literally did not progress inside the singularity in any way we could ever understand.

Remember, before the singularity there was no space which does not mean there was nothing there, just that everything was inside the singularity protected from any physical laws of nature, so time, gravity, mass, energy are concepts we apply to reality because we observe them, but they do not apply to the singularity itself. Think of it as the entire galaxy within a singularity, only that none of our physics applied because the singularity disabled physics, by having probably near infinite energy.

Of course, that train of thought leads to the mystery of dark energy and dark matter. we really need to find out what that stuff is, because if it is really some new form of matter and energy then that would likely explain how the singularity could exist.

And that means that nothing existed outside of the singularity before the big bang. EVERYTHING existed within the singularity. So time existed within it too just probably in a strange way, otherwise it wouldn't have explodified into the universe.

But either way, we can never know anything bout the big bang as it's not observable and laws of physics don't even apply, so why bother. Would be more important to make sure we can survive the coming cold death of the entire universe, assuming we even survive the next 50 years that is ;p
 
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22. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 4, 2018, 11:00 NKD
 
Why even engage with Kxmode on scientific topics? He won't argue honestly, and if (when) he gets the science wrong, he'll fall back on some good ol' Biblical Literalism that not even most Christians buy into. His argument is always the same "We don't know everything, so we know nothing."

I'm not a physicist, but it's likely impossible to know what happened "before" the Big Bang, and that's just a clickbait title not reflective of what Hawking said anyway.

Even if we imagine the existence of some kind of multiverse-spanning meta-time that allows for a linear sequence of events that led to the Big Bang, we can't even make any educated guesses. We can only know things we observe, or things we can infer mathematically from things we observe. The Higgs boson is a good example. We hadn't even observed it, but the Standard Model predicted it would be there, and we set out to prove or disprove it.

That's science. Make a prediction, test the prediction. If the model you are using keeps passing the test of experiment, you know you are on the right track.

Physics is really just math. If there's something that doesn't add up, you figure out what would need to go there to make it add up, and then try to find it to see if you are correct. Kxmode mentioned dark matter/dark energy. Well, dark matter is more like dark gravity. It may actually have nothing to do with baryonic matter. We don't know its nature, but we can observe its effects and make calculations based on those effects.

But knowing what happened "before" the Big Bang is like trying to solve a math problem where you don't know, and can't know, ANY of the numbers, or even how many variables there are, or even the mathematical rules involved.

It is thought by many physicists that the rules that govern our universe are largely arbitrary, based on random events in the earliest moments of the Big Bang where certain fields "froze" in a certain way that set the constants. There could be universes where time is weird and there is no concept of cause-and-effect. There could be universes where there are no stars or planets because gravity doesn't exist.

There are always going to be limits to what we can know, or to what degree of precision we can know something. 2 trillion years from now, there will likely be a scientist somewhere in our universe that has set about observing the night sky. Because of inflation, this scientist will not have the same data we do. The cosmic microwave background, and all the surrounding galaxies, will have red-shifted beyond the point where they can be observed by any possible technology. (The wavelength would be wider than the galaxy.) That scientist will only be able to observe their own galaxy. A very large galaxy made up of all the galaxies that were close enough to each other that the gravity pulling them together won out over the rate of inflation. Because of the inability to observe Type Ia supernovae, or other extremely distant phenomena in other galaxies, it's unlikely that this scientist could ever find evidence that inflation even exists. His observable universe is too small in scale for the effects of inflation to be observable. And without that, he cannot mathematically infer that there were ever other galaxies, and would likely never be able to find out about the Big Bang.

That knowledge would be forever locked away from him unless he found some kind of data preserved by civilizations that existed during our time. And even then, he wouldn't be able to independently verify the data.

But we're a long ways off from running out of things to learn.
 
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I keep warning you. Doors and corners, kid. That's where they get you. Humans are too fucking stupid to listen.
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21. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 4, 2018, 10:03 El Pit
 
Whatever. Even Jehovah cannot finish Star Citizen. But IF it ever gets finished, it will create a singularity, leading to the collapse of the universe into an inverse black hole i.e. a big bang. And then energy/matter will spread (and hence time with it) and...

...a new Star Citizen will get kickstarted.

What is really interesting is that Hawking said that "Even the amount of matter in the universe can be different to what it was before the Big Bang" - that is something I find hard to swallow. Because where did the energy go that would be the difference between the amount of energy in our universe and whatever (sort of) existed before it. Yeah, I know that this "before" means there was actually a time before time itself existed as we understand it. It's a bit tricky, isn't it?
 
They're waiting for you, Gabe, in the test chamber!
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20. Re: Re: Out of the Blue Mar 4, 2018, 09:59 Beamer
 
Wait, now you're claiming Jesus is 14 billion years old?

This stuff isn't in any organized religion, is it? This seems 100% kxmode. And an inch away from believing in something like David koresh.
 
-------------
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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19. Re: Re: Out of the Blue Mar 4, 2018, 07:58 eRe4s3r
 
Kxmode wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 18:49:
Redmask wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 16:49:
Kxmode wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 14:11:

Really? Scientists don't know what "darkmatter/energy/whatchamacallit" is even though the stuff makes up 96% of the -- at present -- known universe. That's a REALLY big unknown variable. I think before he makes such a bold claim, he should try and find out what that elusive nougat is. Or should we simply take his word on faith?

Speaking of which, since we're in faithland, I'd like to state when time began using the Bible.

(Colossians 1:15,16) "He [or Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,"

Jehovah God did not need "time." Time as a construct only came into existence after Jesus.

It is really something to observe religion attempt to co-opt science, after hundreds of years of fighting it. Almost like a dog licking its own asshole.

It is more about making baseless claims. Dark matter/energy is an 800-pound elephant in the room that continues to baffle scientists, and yet they make claims of knowing what happened before the big bang. Really?! Human's can't predict the future with any level of precision, so how can they predict billion of years into the past with a hulking anomaly like dark matter/energy? Frankly, it is human arrogance. Stephen Hawking's knows a great deal, but when it comes to what happened before the big bang, he knows as much as an ant knows about the weather.

Your post is decent proof that you REALLY didn't read nor understand the article.... He said literally that we can not know what happened before the big bang because time approached non-existence and thus no observations from that event can be made.

And that aside, the ancient Egyptian Empire existed 4000 years before jeebus was even a thought construct deconstructing your entire pseudo scientific religious mumbo jumbo. And neither the Egyptians 6000 years ago nor the romans 2000 years ago believed in that religion.

Point being, your entire post is utter nearly insane nonsense.

Not to mention as a proper norther barbarian my ancestors believed in tree spirits and wood beings that ate your skin while you slept, which is a far more awesome religion than your cheap avenger knockoff
 
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18. Re: Re: Out of the Blue Mar 4, 2018, 01:45 The Half Elf
 
Kxmode wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 18:38:
Beamer wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 14:33:
Jesus invented time? That's a new one. How old do you think the world is?

No. Jehovah God created time, remember as a construct, after creating Jesus. From the moment of Jesus' "birth," time moved forward, and measured events in the universe and upon the earth. Even Jehovah God himself follows a schedule. An example of this is found in a common statement by Jesus, "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36) Perhaps some form of time existed before Jesus. I do not know, but what I can say is when it started, according to an extrapolation of what the Bible says.

According to proven scientific methods the earth is around 4 billion years old. The universe is around 14 billion; just in case you would like to know how old Jesus is.


Jesus the really crappy Avenger with food powers.
 
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17. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 4, 2018, 01:12 Rigs
 
Blue wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 10:01:
It's clear out there now, but not calm, as the high winds persist, presumably hunting for more vulnerable trees to separate from the herd.
StingingVelvet wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 22:14:
Lost power for 24 hours but no tree assaults, thank darkmatter.

You guys are so cute with your 'bomb cyclones' and 'Nor'Easters' and 24 hours without power. Wake me up when the gusts get over 125 and/or going on day 4 without power.

*Struts out the door, head up, chest out, like Hot Shit from having lived 20 years in Hurricane Alley*

Redmask wrote on Mar 3, 2018, 16:49:
Almost like a dog licking its own asshole.

Hey, bro, what you do on your Saturday Nights is totally your own business...just sayin'...


=-Rigs-=
 
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16. Re: Out of the Blue Mar 3, 2018, 22:14 StingingVelvet
 
Lost power for 24 hours but no tree assaults, thank darkmatter.  
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