Jess Cliffe Arrest Details

KIRO-TV follows up on their report of Valve designer and Counter-Strike co-creator Jess Cliffe's arrest for sexual exploitation of a child, offering details that were not part of the original story. Cliffe is accused of having paid sex with a minor he met though a website, and on one occasion, recording the proceedings. The story suggests he may not have been aware of the age of the victim, who is now 16 years old, and according to his lawyer, Cliffe, who is currently suspended by Valve, is cooperating with investigators. Here is a portion of the report:
Prosecutors say Jess Cliffe, the co-creator of the video game Counter-Strike who was arrested for sexual exploitation of a child, paid a minor to have sex with him in 2017 and recorded her against her will.

Cliffe, who was placed on leave from Valve Corporation where he worked as a designer, allegedly met a girl on SeekingArrangement.com, a website that “delivers a new way for relationships to form and grow,” according to the site. “Sugar Babies and Sugar Daddies or Mommas both get what they want, when they want it.”

The girl, now 16, told investigators she communicated with Cliffe via text message and another message platform such as Snapchat. The case started last May when the King County Sheriff’s Office received a Child Protective Services referral.

The teen told investigators that Cliffe would pick her up and drop her off at an intersection near her Seattle home.

She “reported meeting with Jess A. Cliffe to have sex for money at least three separate times, and that each time she was paid $300 for one hour,” according to a probable cause document. “She further reported that on the last occasion while engaged in sex acts with Jess A. Cliffe at his home, he attempted to and successfully video recorded portions of their session against her consent.”
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62.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 6, 2018, 14:37
Beamer
 
62.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 6, 2018, 14:37
Feb 6, 2018, 14:37
 Beamer
 
jdreyer wrote on Feb 6, 2018, 12:00:
Beamer wrote on Feb 6, 2018, 09:09:
jdreyer wrote on Feb 6, 2018, 02:11:
Beamer wrote on Feb 5, 2018, 17:46:
Where it gets really weird is if a 15 year old breaks into a 30 year old's house and forces her to have sex at gunpoint, say, he says he'll shoot her daughter if she doesn't. He's raping her, but she's guilty of statutory rape.

Right, the 15 year old boy will break in and rape the 30 year old woman. She'll go to jail and be on the registry the rest of her life for stat raping a 15 year old, because the 15 year old is a child incapable of making an adult decision, and it's strict liability. She'll be banned from working most jobs, have to live under a bridge, and attend sexual counseling for the rest of her life. She'll probably lose custody of her kids.
However, the 15 year old, having committed a heinous crime, will be tried as an adult, being deemed capable of having made an "adult" decision in performing such acts.

While this is a rather extreme edge case, you see how the lack of nuance in strict liability affords outcomes that are both unfair and undesirable.

If the 15 year old forcefully rapes her, as in holds her down, it's not her fault and strict liability doesn't apply. He'd have to give her some form of choice. A terrible one, maybe, but a choice. Like I said, pointing a gun at a daughter and saying he'll shoot her unless the mother has sex with him.

Not certain it's ever come up, but it's a situation that could.

Thanks for posting a bunch of informed opinions, Beam.

I know you're just explaining how the law works, and the reasons for it. It's all good to know. I just get frustrated when laws or how they're applied are patently unfair. Let the punishment fit the crime with an emphasis rehabilitation. I just feel that won't be the case in this instance, but we'll see.

And yeah, I'm still pissed about Aaron Swartz.

At this point I'm also not entirely right. More than just Alaska has a Mistake of Fact defense, Alaska was just the first. It's still not very common, and has limitations. It's been a really, really long time since I've thought about this kind of stuff.
61.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 6, 2018, 12:02
61.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 6, 2018, 12:02
Feb 6, 2018, 12:02
 
jdreyer wrote on Feb 6, 2018, 12:00:
Beamer wrote on Feb 6, 2018, 09:09:
jdreyer wrote on Feb 6, 2018, 02:11:
Beamer wrote on Feb 5, 2018, 17:46:
Where it gets really weird is if a 15 year old breaks into a 30 year old's house and forces her to have sex at gunpoint, say, he says he'll shoot her daughter if she doesn't. He's raping her, but she's guilty of statutory rape.

Right, the 15 year old boy will break in and rape the 30 year old woman. She'll go to jail and be on the registry the rest of her life for stat raping a 15 year old, because the 15 year old is a child incapable of making an adult decision, and it's strict liability. She'll be banned from working most jobs, have to live under a bridge, and attend sexual counseling for the rest of her life. She'll probably lose custody of her kids.
However, the 15 year old, having committed a heinous crime, will be tried as an adult, being deemed capable of having made an "adult" decision in performing such acts.

While this is a rather extreme edge case, you see how the lack of nuance in strict liability affords outcomes that are both unfair and undesirable.

If the 15 year old forcefully rapes her, as in holds her down, it's not her fault and strict liability doesn't apply. He'd have to give her some form of choice. A terrible one, maybe, but a choice. Like I said, pointing a gun at a daughter and saying he'll shoot her unless the mother has sex with him.

Not certain it's ever come up, but it's a situation that could.

Thanks for posting a bunch of informed opinions, Beam.

I know you're just explaining how the law works, and the reasons for it. It's all good to know. I just get frustrated when laws or how they're applied are patently unfair. Let the punishment fit the crime with an emphasis rehabilitation. I just feel that won't be the case in this instance, but we'll see.

And yeah, I'm still pissed about Aaron Swartz.

(I was pre-law and almost went to law school before I switched gears and went into development instead. I've always had an interest in this kind of stuff)
“We’ve reached the point of this polarized pandemic where our current plan for salvation is convincing certain recalcitrant men that wearing masks is the testosteroney thing to do.“
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60.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 6, 2018, 12:00
60.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 6, 2018, 12:00
Feb 6, 2018, 12:00
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 6, 2018, 09:09:
jdreyer wrote on Feb 6, 2018, 02:11:
Beamer wrote on Feb 5, 2018, 17:46:
Where it gets really weird is if a 15 year old breaks into a 30 year old's house and forces her to have sex at gunpoint, say, he says he'll shoot her daughter if she doesn't. He's raping her, but she's guilty of statutory rape.

Right, the 15 year old boy will break in and rape the 30 year old woman. She'll go to jail and be on the registry the rest of her life for stat raping a 15 year old, because the 15 year old is a child incapable of making an adult decision, and it's strict liability. She'll be banned from working most jobs, have to live under a bridge, and attend sexual counseling for the rest of her life. She'll probably lose custody of her kids.
However, the 15 year old, having committed a heinous crime, will be tried as an adult, being deemed capable of having made an "adult" decision in performing such acts.

While this is a rather extreme edge case, you see how the lack of nuance in strict liability affords outcomes that are both unfair and undesirable.

If the 15 year old forcefully rapes her, as in holds her down, it's not her fault and strict liability doesn't apply. He'd have to give her some form of choice. A terrible one, maybe, but a choice. Like I said, pointing a gun at a daughter and saying he'll shoot her unless the mother has sex with him.

Not certain it's ever come up, but it's a situation that could.

Thanks for posting a bunch of informed opinions, Beam.

I know you're just explaining how the law works, and the reasons for it. It's all good to know. I just get frustrated when laws or how they're applied are patently unfair. Let the punishment fit the crime with an emphasis rehabilitation. I just feel that won't be the case in this instance, but we'll see.

And yeah, I'm still pissed about Aaron Swartz.
“We’ve reached the point of this polarized pandemic where our current plan for salvation is convincing certain recalcitrant men that wearing masks is the testosteroney thing to do.“
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59.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 6, 2018, 09:09
Beamer
 
59.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 6, 2018, 09:09
Feb 6, 2018, 09:09
 Beamer
 
jdreyer wrote on Feb 6, 2018, 02:11:
Beamer wrote on Feb 5, 2018, 17:46:
Where it gets really weird is if a 15 year old breaks into a 30 year old's house and forces her to have sex at gunpoint, say, he says he'll shoot her daughter if she doesn't. He's raping her, but she's guilty of statutory rape.

Right, the 15 year old boy will break in and rape the 30 year old woman. She'll go to jail and be on the registry the rest of her life for stat raping a 15 year old, because the 15 year old is a child incapable of making an adult decision, and it's strict liability. She'll be banned from working most jobs, have to live under a bridge, and attend sexual counseling for the rest of her life. She'll probably lose custody of her kids.
However, the 15 year old, having committed a heinous crime, will be tried as an adult, being deemed capable of having made an "adult" decision in performing such acts.

While this is a rather extreme edge case, you see how the lack of nuance in strict liability affords outcomes that are both unfair and undesirable.

If the 15 year old forcefully rapes her, as in holds her down, it's not her fault and strict liability doesn't apply. He'd have to give her some form of choice. A terrible one, maybe, but a choice. Like I said, pointing a gun at a daughter and saying he'll shoot her unless the mother has sex with him.

Not certain it's ever come up, but it's a situation that could.
58.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 6, 2018, 02:11
58.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 6, 2018, 02:11
Feb 6, 2018, 02:11
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 5, 2018, 17:46:
Where it gets really weird is if a 15 year old breaks into a 30 year old's house and forces her to have sex at gunpoint, say, he says he'll shoot her daughter if she doesn't. He's raping her, but she's guilty of statutory rape.

Right, the 15 year old boy will break in and rape the 30 year old woman. She'll go to jail and be on the registry the rest of her life for stat raping a 15 year old, because the 15 year old is a child incapable of making an adult decision, and it's strict liability. She'll be banned from working most jobs, have to live under a bridge, and attend sexual counseling for the rest of her life. She'll probably lose custody of her kids.
However, the 15 year old, having committed a heinous crime, will be tried as an adult, being deemed capable of having made an "adult" decision in performing such acts.

While this is a rather extreme edge case, you see how the lack of nuance in strict liability affords outcomes that are both unfair and undesirable.
“We’ve reached the point of this polarized pandemic where our current plan for salvation is convincing certain recalcitrant men that wearing masks is the testosteroney thing to do.“
Avatar 22024
57.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 5, 2018, 17:46
Beamer
 
57.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 5, 2018, 17:46
Feb 5, 2018, 17:46
 Beamer
 
grudgebearer wrote on Feb 5, 2018, 17:21:
jdreyer wrote on Feb 3, 2018, 19:35:

I get that, but to not count intent at all ever is just stupid. Rape is not strict liability, but stat rape is? You could set a high bar to be sure and catch actual pedos, but to nail someone with a felony who thought they were committing a misdemeanor is cruel and unusual punishment.

And don't start with "children are incapable of making decisions." The government tries children as adults all the time. It's just not right to put 100% of the onus on the adult in a case like this.

One of the most screwed up parts of our justice system, is that we will try a 12-year-old as an adult in a murder case, but charge a 16-year-old with statutory rape because he had sex with a 15-year-old.

So how is it that you are mature enough to understand murder at 12, but not be mature enough to understand consensual sex at 15?

If Jess Cliffe asked this girl if she was 18 and she said no, and he continued to engage in sexual relations with her, fine charge him, but I find it hard to consider her a "victim" of anything other than her own choices considering she fraudulently accessed a webpage intended for adult use.

We very, very, very rarely prosecute a teenager for having sex with a teenager. It's only when the parents are adamant about pressing charges, and, incidentally, is more often racially charged than other crimes. But prosecutors rarely want to go after it, as it's a huge waste of everyone's time. Most states have Romeo & Juliet laws to avoid it. In the case of Georgia, that's why this is only a misdemeanor. No sex offender registration with that.

Where it gets really weird is if a 15 year old breaks into a 30 year old's house and forces her to have sex at gunpoint, say, he says he'll shoot her daughter if she doesn't. He's raping her, but she's guilty of statutory rape.
56.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 5, 2018, 17:21
56.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 5, 2018, 17:21
Feb 5, 2018, 17:21
 
jdreyer wrote on Feb 3, 2018, 19:35:

I get that, but to not count intent at all ever is just stupid. Rape is not strict liability, but stat rape is? You could set a high bar to be sure and catch actual pedos, but to nail someone with a felony who thought they were committing a misdemeanor is cruel and unusual punishment.

And don't start with "children are incapable of making decisions." The government tries children as adults all the time. It's just not right to put 100% of the onus on the adult in a case like this.

One of the most screwed up parts of our justice system, is that we will try a 12-year-old as an adult in a murder case, but charge a 16-year-old with statutory rape because he had sex with a 15-year-old.

So how is it that you are mature enough to understand murder at 12, but not be mature enough to understand consensual sex at 15?

If Jess Cliffe asked this girl if she was 18 and she said no, and he continued to engage in sexual relations with her, fine charge him, but I find it hard to consider her a "victim" of anything other than her own choices considering she fraudulently accessed a webpage intended for adult use.

This comment was edited on Feb 5, 2018, 17:32.
Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishfull thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.
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55.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Feb 5, 2018, 13:57
Kxmode
 
55.
Re: Out of the Blue Feb 5, 2018, 13:57
Feb 5, 2018, 13:57
 Kxmode
 
Sepharo wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 00:51:
Kxmode wrote on Feb 3, 2018, 22:51:
We live in a society where the vast majority are guilty UNTIL proven innocent. Very sad.

That's pretty much the thing in all societies... that's why some societies, like ours, enshrined laws to ensure fair trials, juries of peers, public defense, etc.
And yet people will bitch about that too depending on the charges and the outcome of any given case.

Yeah. Trial by media has never been valid. Richard Jewell is an excellent example of what happens when the press condemns a person using the court of public opinion.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
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54.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 5, 2018, 04:34
54.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 5, 2018, 04:34
Feb 5, 2018, 04:34
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 15:36:

So do you think a 10 year old can ever consent to sex with a 38 year old? Hypothetically do you think a case exists where it's possible?

Are you saying theres no physical or mental difference between a 10 year old and a 15 year old?
Why is the accepted 'adulthood' at 18, which is just 3 years away, and loads of changes in that 3 year span? And even MORE changes in the 5 year span from a 10 year old to a 15 year old?
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53.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 18:28
Quboid
 
53.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 18:28
Feb 4, 2018, 18:28
 Quboid
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 15:36:
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 12:44:
Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 10:44:
She was 15. She did not consent because she was too young. If you disagree, where do you personally draw the line?
She did consent, it's just that the law doesn't recognise that consent because of her age. Really the determination should be made on an individual basis, rather than applying blanket age restrictions. A girl who goes out of her way to conceal her age and prostitute herself should be deemed to have granted consent. We're not talking about someone pressured into prostitution here - it's a website that she registered for and she went into it knowing the consequences of her actions.

Let's be realistic here. Fourteen and fifteen years olds commonly engage in sex and in many cultures the age of consent is much lower. I don't have an issue with consensual sex where both parties are considered to be able to offer consent. The issue I have is psychological manipulation and coersion, which should not be tolerated. I find the idea repugnant of ruining this man's livelihood and reputation because he engaged in consensual sex with a girl who sought out sex and went to lengths to conceal her age.

So do you think a 10 year old can ever consent to sex with a 38 year old? Hypothetically do you think a case exists where it's possible?

If there is a genuine reason why the adult would have reason to believe the child was of age, I don't think the adult is at fault. The child doesn't legally give consent, but the adult isn't to blame either.

What constitutes 'reason to believe' ultimately comes down to a case-by-case basis. It's tough to imagine a 10 year old could genuinely be mistaken for an adult but a 15 year old on a prostitution site is very possible. I could go to PornHub and see loads of supposedly 18 year old women, are they 18? I'd assume they are at least 18 - probably older - but I only have their appearance and the adult-only context to base that on.

There's precedent for this. Two soccer players got caught with an under-age prostitute and successfully argued that they couldn't have known. This one is pretty clear-cut (she was over the age of consent but under France's minimum age for prostitution, she agreed that she misled them), so this doesn't necessary apply to Jess Cliffe's case. Still, my initial, woefully under-informed impression is that he's not at fault regarding her age.
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52.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 17:16
52.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 17:16
Feb 4, 2018, 17:16
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 12:44:
Really the determination should be made on an individual basis, rather than applying blanket age restrictions.

No it really shouldn't. In that case the justice system has the potential to become a second perpetrator by the examination that would be necessary to determine if an individual girl is mature enough to consent. In the mean time the guy sits there and waits for his lawyer to finish the "examination".

And how the hell do you draw *that* particular line to begin with even?

I'm fine with tweaking some of the edge cases of sex offender laws. An 18 year old sexting their 17 year old SO shouldn't be registered as a sex offender forever.

But young people are imminently capable of being manipulated and taken advantage of. And even if this girl gave her consent I don't think it's a bad thing he's getting thrown in jail. There are lines you don't cross.

Way, way back in the day when I used to do renaissance faires this used to be an issue. Few underage girls hooked up with guys older than them, occasionally way older. Our group dealt with it by saying we'd kick your ass out and/or alert the police if you shacked up and pulled a stat rape. If there was any question, card them. Hell with the booze and other substances that flowed around back in those days we'd card anyway.

You're the adult. You have the responsibility to not think with your dick or other genitalia when it comes to a sexual partner when there's a significant age discrepancy.
51.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 16:37
51.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 16:37
Feb 4, 2018, 16:37
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 10:44:
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 06:15:
panbient wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 05:51:
Holy crap the victim blaming...


There's a pretty simple way to avoid these kind of situations. If you think you need to ask a young woman her age (or proof thereof) then SHE'S TOO YOUNG. Even if she turns out to be "legal".

But when you're looking to pay through a Sugar Daddy / Sugar Baby website for a hookup there are probably other issues going on (with the john). Rather than looking into her background (wtf? blame the victim more). Look into the fact that he was a middle aged man looking to push the edge of the envelope and obviously didn't care about her real age so long as she told him it was ok.

It might not be clinical pedophilia but it was certainly some form of exploitation.

If anything this is another example of why prostitution should be legalized and controlled - for the health and benefit of both parties.
The matter is rather simple for me: both parties consented to sex, therefore there shouldn't be an issue. She lied about her age but clearly knew what she was doing. The only real fault I see is that he filmed the sex against her consent but it really depends on the context (what pressure was applied, etc) - it's also her word against his. I'm not really in a position to judge either of them without knowing a lot more details.

I see capitalism as the greater issue, with people pressured into activities and behaviours they would otherwise reject in order to meet essential needs. Without capitalism prostitution would just be consensual sex. Should we really be proud of a society that compels so many young people to have sex with older, wealthy individuals for money? If you browse any online dating websites they're filled with people offering sex for money or clothes. If society provided one's basic needs (accommodation, energy, healthcare, clothes, food, etc) it would largely eliminate the demand for sugar daddy relationships.

For now the simplest option is to legalise and regulate prostitution. Take it out of the shadows and accept it for what it is. It's not going to go away.

She was 15. She did not consent because she was too young. If you disagree, where do you personally draw the line?

Can a 10 year old consent to sex with a 38 year old?

My opposition is the fact that stat rape is nearly always strict liability. That means there's no mitigating circumstance. Also, due to the way laws have been structured, it's nearly impossible for offenders with "sex offender" labels to reintegrate back into society for the rest of their lives. We treat sex offenders differently and mete out the same punishment for both the lightest offenders and the worst predators. When you read stories like this, you understand that these laws are out of control. Even the mother of the victim for whom the national sex offender registry is named thinks so.

Should we have strong laws that protect children? Absolutely. Should this guy be prosecuted for patronizing a prostitute? Absolutely. Should what appears to be an honest mistake essentially doom him to a life of living under bridges? That seems cruel and unusual in this particular case.
“We’ve reached the point of this polarized pandemic where our current plan for salvation is convincing certain recalcitrant men that wearing masks is the testosteroney thing to do.“
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50.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 16:18
50.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 16:18
Feb 4, 2018, 16:18
 
Derp
“We’ve reached the point of this polarized pandemic where our current plan for salvation is convincing certain recalcitrant men that wearing masks is the testosteroney thing to do.“
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49.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 16:14
49.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 16:14
Feb 4, 2018, 16:14
 
RedEye9 wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 14:22:
2 consenting adults where no money was exchanged.

Yeah, when you separate children and parents at birth, then introduce them as adults, strange shit can happen. It's like the strongest aphrodisiac. It's freakin' weird.

I'm opposed to putting these two in jail. What's done is done. What's best at this point for the baby is to be together to raise the child.
“We’ve reached the point of this polarized pandemic where our current plan for salvation is convincing certain recalcitrant men that wearing masks is the testosteroney thing to do.“
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48.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 15:36
Beamer
 
48.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 15:36
Feb 4, 2018, 15:36
 Beamer
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 12:44:
Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 10:44:
She was 15. She did not consent because she was too young. If you disagree, where do you personally draw the line?
She did consent, it's just that the law doesn't recognise that consent because of her age. Really the determination should be made on an individual basis, rather than applying blanket age restrictions. A girl who goes out of her way to conceal her age and prostitute herself should be deemed to have granted consent. We're not talking about someone pressured into prostitution here - it's a website that she registered for and she went into it knowing the consequences of her actions.

Let's be realistic here. Fourteen and fifteen years olds commonly engage in sex and in many cultures the age of consent is much lower. I don't have an issue with consensual sex where both parties are considered to be able to offer consent. The issue I have is psychological manipulation and coersion, which should not be tolerated. I find the idea repugnant of ruining this man's livelihood and reputation because he engaged in consensual sex with a girl who sought out sex and went to lengths to conceal her age.

So do you think a 10 year old can ever consent to sex with a 38 year old? Hypothetically do you think a case exists where it's possible?
47.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 15:09
47.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 15:09
Feb 4, 2018, 15:09
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 10:45:
CJ_Parker wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 09:34:
Prez wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 07:01:
On the serious side in my view this guy's actions in this case do not paint him as a pedophile at all. At worst a perv or a creep.

^ this

"Real" pedos -by definition- are really only into minors whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are not fully developed yet. In plain English: The girl can't have boobs for a pedo.

This girl here was 15 years old so she certainly had (developing) boobs. This does indeed put this Cliffe guy more in the category of a perv (teen girl lover).

Her young age obviously played a major role here. Whether he really thought she was 18 seems very unlikely to me. More likely he was specifically looking for under age girls who advertise themselves as 18+ (like "hey I'm 18 OK? *wink* *wink*").
You know, like some of those teen pr0n sites that claim that all models were 18+ but who really checks on that? Good luck even tracking down and finding some anonymous Eastern European pr0n starlet for asking.

Anyway, zero sympathies for this guy. You gotta have control where you stick your dick. Simple as that. He took a risk, probably got a kick out of the whole "teeny" thing and fell flat on this face. Shit happens. Deal with it.

So having boobs makes the difference? Young enough to bleed, young enough to breed?

Have you talked to a 15 year old girl recently?

Make the difference for what and why would I need to talk to a 15 year old? What are you insinuating?

I believe I made myself clear enough that the development of sexual characteristics makes the difference for whether someone is a pedophile. That's basically the whole definition of pedophilia. Pedos immediately lose interest in "kids" (young teens) as soon as the primary and secondary sexual characteristics begin to develop.

So this rules out that Cliffe is a pedo in the "scientific" or biological sense.
He's not. He's just attracted to young girls.
And let's get real... every man with a functioning dick is attracted to girls as soon as they got boobs and typical female shapes (wide hips and some ass etc.).
The difference between (hopefully!) many of us and Cliffe is that we draw a line and are better at abiding by established societal rules.

If someone were a "pedo" if you are attracted to girls <16, well, then many countries all over the world are "pedo states" apparently, especially the entire Muslim world where it's normal for 12/13 year olds to get married and have sex.

No, man. Cliffe is a major fucking asshole for exploiting this minor (even if she "voluntarily" prostituted herself and supposedly lied about her age) but he ain't a pedo.
46.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 14:22
46.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 14:22
Feb 4, 2018, 14:22
 

2 consenting adults where no money was exchanged.
A mask is not a political statement.
It's an IQ test.
It's a compassion test.
It's a decency test.
It's a social responsibility test.
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45.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 12:44
45.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 12:44
Feb 4, 2018, 12:44
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 10:44:
She was 15. She did not consent because she was too young. If you disagree, where do you personally draw the line?
She did consent, it's just that the law doesn't recognise that consent because of her age. Really the determination should be made on an individual basis, rather than applying blanket age restrictions. A girl who goes out of her way to conceal her age and prostitute herself should be deemed to have granted consent. We're not talking about someone pressured into prostitution here - it's a website that she registered for and she went into it knowing the consequences of her actions.

Let's be realistic here. Fourteen and fifteen years olds commonly engage in sex and in many cultures the age of consent is much lower. I don't have an issue with consensual sex where both parties are considered to be able to offer consent. The issue I have is psychological manipulation and coersion, which should not be tolerated. I find the idea repugnant of ruining this man's livelihood and reputation because he engaged in consensual sex with a girl who sought out sex and went to lengths to conceal her age.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
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44.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 10:45
Beamer
 
44.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 10:45
Feb 4, 2018, 10:45
 Beamer
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 09:34:
Prez wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 07:01:
On the serious side in my view this guy's actions in this case do not paint him as a pedophile at all. At worst a perv or a creep.

^ this

"Real" pedos -by definition- are really only into minors whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are not fully developed yet. In plain English: The girl can't have boobs for a pedo.

This girl here was 15 years old so she certainly had (developing) boobs. This does indeed put this Cliffe guy more in the category of a perv (teen girl lover).

Her young age obviously played a major role here. Whether he really thought she was 18 seems very unlikely to me. More likely he was specifically looking for under age girls who advertise themselves as 18+ (like "hey I'm 18 OK? *wink* *wink*").
You know, like some of those teen pr0n sites that claim that all models were 18+ but who really checks on that? Good luck even tracking down and finding some anonymous Eastern European pr0n starlet for asking.

Anyway, zero sympathies for this guy. You gotta have control where you stick your dick. Simple as that. He took a risk, probably got a kick out of the whole "teeny" thing and fell flat on this face. Shit happens. Deal with it.

So having boobs makes the difference? Young enough to bleed, young enough to breed?

Have you talked to a 15 year old girl recently?
43.
 
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details
Feb 4, 2018, 10:44
Beamer
 
43.
Re: Jess Cliffe Arrest Details Feb 4, 2018, 10:44
Feb 4, 2018, 10:44
 Beamer
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 06:15:
panbient wrote on Feb 4, 2018, 05:51:
Holy crap the victim blaming...


There's a pretty simple way to avoid these kind of situations. If you think you need to ask a young woman her age (or proof thereof) then SHE'S TOO YOUNG. Even if she turns out to be "legal".

But when you're looking to pay through a Sugar Daddy / Sugar Baby website for a hookup there are probably other issues going on (with the john). Rather than looking into her background (wtf? blame the victim more). Look into the fact that he was a middle aged man looking to push the edge of the envelope and obviously didn't care about her real age so long as she told him it was ok.

It might not be clinical pedophilia but it was certainly some form of exploitation.

If anything this is another example of why prostitution should be legalized and controlled - for the health and benefit of both parties.
The matter is rather simple for me: both parties consented to sex, therefore there shouldn't be an issue. She lied about her age but clearly knew what she was doing. The only real fault I see is that he filmed the sex against her consent but it really depends on the context (what pressure was applied, etc) - it's also her word against his. I'm not really in a position to judge either of them without knowing a lot more details.

I see capitalism as the greater issue, with people pressured into activities and behaviours they would otherwise reject in order to meet essential needs. Without capitalism prostitution would just be consensual sex. Should we really be proud of a society that compels so many young people to have sex with older, wealthy individuals for money? If you browse any online dating websites they're filled with people offering sex for money or clothes. If society provided one's basic needs (accommodation, energy, healthcare, clothes, food, etc) it would largely eliminate the demand for sugar daddy relationships.

For now the simplest option is to legalise and regulate prostitution. Take it out of the shadows and accept it for what it is. It's not going to go away.

She was 15. She did not consent because she was too young. If you disagree, where do you personally draw the line?

Can a 10 year old consent to sex with a 38 year old?
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