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Saturday Legal Briefs

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73 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 3.
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33. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 08:47 Quboid
 
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 08:10:
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 08:05:
Or park down the street, point a shotgun mic at the house wall from 100' away, then call them. Listen to what's going on inside the house before, during, and after the call.

Illegal.
But it's legal to shoot an unarmed, innocent man who is pulling up their pants.

It's OK for a cop to break the law if they decide it might help them avoid breaking a more important law?

What's needed for that sort of surveillance? Is there a warrant, and if so how quickly can one be got?
 
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32. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 08:10 RedEye9
 
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 08:05:
Or park down the street, point a shotgun mic at the house wall from 100' away, then call them. Listen to what's going on inside the house before, during, and after the call.

Illegal.
But it's legal to shoot an unarmed, innocent man who is pulling up their pants.
 
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31. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 08:05 Retired
 
Or park down the street, point a shotgun mic at the house wall from 100' away, then call them. Listen to what's going on inside the house before, during, and after the call.

Illegal.
 
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30. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 08:03 Redmask
 
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 20:26:
And it just keeps getting better;
Lisa Finch said the family was forced outside barefoot in the freezing cold and handcuffed after the shooting. She said her granddaughter was forced to step over her dying uncle and that no guns were found in the home.
Can you imagine an hysterical wife or mother that just witnessed this bullshit. It's just luck that no one else was killed.

A new story, a new cause, a new day. Adrift in a sea of RSS feeds and twitter posts. Tugboat whoo whoo!
 
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29. No subject Dec 31, 2017, 00:35 Mashiki Amiketo
 
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 19:38:
Great, you explain how an innocent person gets blown away.
We're all ears.
Short answer: Poor training. You can bet that very few of them are getting drilled training anymore. Here's the difference between US policing and Canadian policing, in the police colleges here they actually put you into a "fight or flight" situation to trigger your reaction so you can learn from it, the entire thing is recorded. Canada is one of the few countries where this happens, it's severely cut down on cases like this. It's also similar to what you get during basic, which is where they took the training idea from.

Even at that, real situations are far different from simulations. Why don't you tell us about the time you've been in an actual fight-or-flight situation as a rookie or cadet and we'll see how you stack up. Policing in the US has multiple problems, many of them stem from two sides: Politicians who don't want to do anything, and people who don't want to pay more for the training(aka tax increases). So you enjoy the shit show.
 
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there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
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28. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 23:50 Cutter
 
How about someone sneak up and around back of the goddamned house and peep in some windows? Or maybe just get a $50 drone from Radio Shack to do it and see if anything looks or sounds like criminal activity? I mean shit, they can afford military hardware I don't think a drone or two will break the bank.
 
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27. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 21:02 jdreyer
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 19:08:
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 18:54:
eRe4s3r wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 18:35:

Or maybe call the residence first and have a single cop check the situation before going rambo on innocents, doesn't need AI nor money. There is a novel idea eh? But I guess US police work is "shoot first, then let guy bleed out for 17 minutes while EM stands literally not 10m from the dude, and then have his family escorted over their dying parent while they all scream bloody murder AT THE COPS who then cuffed them and ferried them off to the precinct.

If this is how US police operates then I suddenly understand whyNOBODY trusts the cops over there.
What if the perp answers the phone and says all's well or holds a gun to the old lady while she's chatting it up with the cops.

Most people don't have a home phone and folks cell phones are not always tied to their address.
ever try to look up someones cell phone number, dang near impossible.

Much easier to shoot first and ask questions later.

If they don't have a home phone or mobile device then they couldn't have called 911 from inside the home, not to mention the call talks about a 1 story house while the police happily murders someone in front of a 2 story house. Even a casual inspection would have triggered ALL red flags. Neighbors were not secured first, address was not double checked with citizen registry......

Basically, I was talking about going to the house and knock/ring without a massive police force parked right in front of it. If it's hostage situation 1 cop might be able to initiate talks, an army of them will initiate a shoot-out and dead hostages. The entire SOP of this police department was all fucked, the dispatcher was fucked, the trigger discipline was fucked. I mean bloody hell there is not single entity in this entire story that didn't totally fuck up. If there is a moral here, it's that negligence kills.

Or park down the street, point a shotgun mic at the house wall from 100' away, then call them. Listen to what's going on inside the house before, during, and after the call. Get a special warrant dispensation for hostage/standoff situations.

As for better training, police officers in the USA get about 100 hours of firearm training, and 10 hours of de-escalation training. Those need to be closer.
 
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Stay a while, and listen.
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26. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 20:26 RedEye9
 
And it just keeps getting better;
Lisa Finch said the family was forced outside barefoot in the freezing cold and handcuffed after the shooting. She said her granddaughter was forced to step over her dying uncle and that no guns were found in the home.
Can you imagine an hysterical wife or mother that just witnessed this bullshit. It's just luck that no one else was killed.
 
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25. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 19:47 1badmf
 
NamecaF wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 19:24:
LOL. I love you armchair detectives. You have no idea how the real world or tactical situations work.

i mean, like i said in yesterday's article, it's the cop's job to risk their lives to protect their citizenry. yes, even from themselves. it should be their standard operating procedure to assume a suspect is innocent until there is incontrovertible proof he's a danger.

yes it will lead to more cop deaths.

but if more cop deaths leads to a corresponding drop in innocent people being murdered in their own homes by the police, i am perfectly ok with that. i know personally, if i was a swat officer, i wouldn't shoot until i actually saw a gun. would that be too late? likely, but at least i didn't kill someone i was supposed to be protecting in his own home. the death of police is an inevitability of the job. the death of innocent people by law enforcement should not be.
 
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24. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 19:38 RedEye9
 
NamecaF wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 19:24:
LOL. I love you armchair detectives. You have no idea how the real world or tactical situations work.
Great, you explain how an innocent person gets blown away.
We're all ears.
 
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23. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 19:24 NamecaF
 
LOL. I love you armchair detectives. You have no idea how the real world or tactical situations work.  
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22. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 19:16 RedEye9
 
Kxmode wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 19:00:
jdreyer wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 12:52:
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 11:44:
A bewildered young man being blinded by a spotlight and yelled at loses his life, and a cop with an itchy trigger finger becomes judge, jury and executioner.

Hey, the suspect should have done as he was told.

Hey, the officer thought he had a gun.

Hey, the officer felt his life was in danger.

Am I getting close?

DailyMail is the UK's version of The National Enquirer here in the states. The video looks staged with actors.
Then try this http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192111974.html
Warning Graphic Content: Wichita Police Department releases the body camera video of officer-involved shooting.
They are even using the same video in Kansas.
 
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21. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 19:09 NKD
 
Slick wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 17:29:
People are rightly outraged but I've seen very little in the discussion on how to actually win this fight. "better training" isn't going to cut it, there were multiple levels of failure here.

You're right. Better training isn't going to fix this. It would help a little, but ultimately you need better people in the first place. We also need to realize that when you're relying on humans, mistakes are inevitable: This means that you need to tailor your procedures to make the outcome of those mistakes less invariably fatal.

If we're at the point where some innocent unarmed guy is essentially ambushed with a spotlight in his face and yelled at with confusing orders, it's already gone off the rails, even if he doesn't end up getting shot. It shouldn't even get to that point.

I don't know what the solution is, but I'm sure there are some good ideas. There needs to be some earlier "out" of the situation.

For example, call the fucking house. Say you got a call from a concerned neighbor. Ask to talk to the person, ask em who is in the house, ask if you can speak to the other people in the house. If there is a shooting or a hostage situation, there's going to be huge red flags in how people respond to these requests. If things sound like a dangerous situation is unlikely, tell them you need to send a couple officers to check things out. Have a couple cops that don't look like some experimental Ubersoldat go up and knock on the fuckin door.

If things sound fishy, then yeah, it might be time to bring in the guys in the minigun wielding mechsuits. But god damn, Dear Piggies: use some kind of logic instead of just making these paranoid worst case scenario protocols that don't give anyone a chance to defuse the situation.

 
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Citizen of the United Shitholes of America
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20. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 19:08 eRe4s3r
 
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 18:54:
eRe4s3r wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 18:35:

Or maybe call the residence first and have a single cop check the situation before going rambo on innocents, doesn't need AI nor money. There is a novel idea eh? But I guess US police work is "shoot first, then let guy bleed out for 17 minutes while EM stands literally not 10m from the dude, and then have his family escorted over their dying parent while they all scream bloody murder AT THE COPS who then cuffed them and ferried them off to the precinct.

If this is how US police operates then I suddenly understand whyNOBODY trusts the cops over there.
What if the perp answers the phone and says all's well or holds a gun to the old lady while she's chatting it up with the cops.

Most people don't have a home phone and folks cell phones are not always tied to their address.
ever try to look up someones cell phone number, dang near impossible.

Much easier to shoot first and ask questions later.

If they don't have a home phone or mobile device then they couldn't have called 911 from inside the home, not to mention the call talks about a 1 story house while the police happily murders someone in front of a 2 story house. Even a casual inspection would have triggered ALL red flags. Neighbors were not secured first, address was not double checked with citizen registry......

Basically, I was talking about going to the house and knock/ring without a massive police force parked right in front of it. If it's hostage situation 1 cop might be able to initiate talks, an army of them will initiate a shoot-out and dead hostages. The entire SOP of this police department was all fucked, the dispatcher was fucked, the trigger discipline was fucked. I mean bloody hell there is not single entity in this entire story that didn't totally fuck up. If there is a moral here, it's that negligence kills.
 
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19. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 19:00 Kxmode
 
jdreyer wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 12:52:
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 11:44:
A bewildered young man being blinded by a spotlight and yelled at loses his life, and a cop with an itchy trigger finger becomes judge, jury and executioner.

Hey, the suspect should have done as he was told.

Hey, the officer thought he had a gun.

Hey, the officer felt his life was in danger.

Am I getting close?

DailyMail is the UK's version of The National Enquirer here in the states. The video looks staged with actors.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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18. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 18:56 Kxmode
 
Alleged 'Nigerian prince' scammer nabbed in Louisiana.

Why are people still using Yahoo Mail? Gmail is only mail resource I've seen that has a 100% success rate of tossing scam and phishing schemes in the junk bin. It even warns the viewer: "Why is this message in Spam? It's similar to messages that were detected by our spam filters. Learn more"
 
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William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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17. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 18:54 RedEye9
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 18:35:

Or maybe call the residence first and have a single cop check the situation before going rambo on innocents, doesn't need AI nor money. There is a novel idea eh? But I guess US police work is "shoot first, then let guy bleed out for 17 minutes while EM stands literally not 10m from the dude, and then have his family escorted over their dying parent while they all scream bloody murder AT THE COPS who then cuffed them and ferried them off to the precinct.

If this is how US police operates then I suddenly understand whyNOBODY trusts the cops over there.
What if the perp answers the phone and says all's well or holds a gun to the old lady while she's chatting it up with the cops.

Most people don't have a home phone and folks cell phones are not always tied to their address.
ever try to look up someones cell phone number, dang near impossible.

Do you want to be the single cop that walks up and rings the doorbell in a possible hostage crisis situation. Fuck that short straw.

Much easier to shoot first and ask questions later. /sarc
 
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16. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 18:35 eRe4s3r
 
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 18:30:
Slick wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 17:29:
Internet fake-news trolls are taking over the free world.

People are rightly outraged but I've seen very little in the discussion on how to actually win this fight. "better training" isn't going to cut it, there were multiple levels of failure here.

I think we need an AI that can have a hope in hell of tackling this problem, I don't know anything else that has a chance. If you think that you need "human eyes" on a problem to solve it... well, ask the cop in this case.

And now might be the time to start talking about the nature of an AI like this, long before it's a reality. Because it will be a reality one day, probably sooner than most think, and we don't want to let the important ethical questions sneak up on us without proper reflection.
On the back end:
Tranq'em.
Knock them down with an overdose of Fentanyl.
Revive them with narcan.
no one get's hurt

Shoot them with a bean bag gun, suspect get's a few broke ribs. Unless hit in the head where it could be fatal.

A self contained stun gun/taser charge (think sticky/shocky bean bag) with a range of 150'. Current models max out at 30 feet.

On the Front end:
Change the system so e-mails and phone numbers can't be spoofed. Or if they are spoofed they get tagged as suspect.

Or maybe call the residence first and have a single cop check the situation before going rambo on innocents, doesn't need AI nor money. There is a novel idea eh? But I guess US police work is "shoot first, then let guy bleed out for 17 minutes while EM stands literally not 10m from the dude, and then have his family escorted over their dying parent while they all scream bloody murder AT THE COPS who then cuffed them and ferried them off to the precinct.

If this is how US police operates then I suddenly understand why NOBODY trusts the cops over there.

This comment was edited on Dec 30, 2017, 18:46.
 
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15. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 18:30 RedEye9
 
Slick wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 17:29:
People are rightly outraged but I've seen very little in the discussion on how to actually win this fight. "better training" isn't going to cut it, there were multiple levels of failure here.

On the back end:
Tranq'em.
Knock them down with an overdose of Fentanyl.
Revive them with narcan.
no one get's hurt

Shoot them with a bean bag gun, suspect get's a few broke ribs. Unless hit in the head where it could be fatal.

A self contained stun gun/taser charge (think sticky/shocky bean bag) with a range of 150'. Current models max out at 30 feet.

On the Front end:
Change the system so e-mails and phone numbers can't be spoofed. Or if they are spoofed they get tagged as suspect.
 
Avatar 58135
 
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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14. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 30, 2017, 18:18 RedEye9
 
NKD wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 16:58:
our resident fake Canuckistani-American Lawyer
You have to give me warning when you come up with something that good, I have a weak heart.
 
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73 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 3.
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