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Saturday Legal Briefs

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73 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 2.
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53. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 15:29 jdreyer
 
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 08:05:
Or park down the street, point a shotgun mic at the house wall from 100' away, then call them. Listen to what's going on inside the house before, during, and after the call.

Illegal.

Sure, you need a warrant. Which is why I said we need a law change just in this instance for a dispensation.
 
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If Star Citizen was a child conceived in a night of passion, it would have started elementary school by now. -panbient
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52. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 15:11 Kxmode
 
Quboid, you've gone off-base. Here's the thread of our discussion:

Kxmode wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:51:
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:44:
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 10:14:
I think anyone stating a human should die because of their job is a puke.

No one stated that, come on.

Beamer: "If a cop is ready to kill, he needs to be ready to die," implying the cop isn't enforcing the law but committing murder.

Beamer's comment implies police officers put themselves purposely in a situation where the only solution is deadly force. Your point and my point align and say police officers are trained both physically and mentally to avoid the situation Beamer suggested.

Retired's right.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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51. Re: : Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 14:29 Quboid
 
Kxmode wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 14:11:
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 14:00:
Kxmode wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 13:50:
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:56:
Kxmode wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:51:
Beamer: "If a cop is ready to kill, he needs to be ready to die," implying the cop isn't enforcing the law but committing murder.

It seems obvious to me that Beamer meant that if someone chooses to put themselves in life-threatening situations - and is paid handsomely accordingly - then they should accept that they're going to be in life-threatening situations. That means accepting danger as part of the job, so not killing any possible, hypothetical threat as soon as possible.

All police officers are trained not to put themselves in life-threatening situations regardless of the fact that each situation has the potential to become one. In other words, police officers typically go into a situation with caution. They also go through extensive psyche evaluations to ensure they aren't half-cocked lethal weapons.

I don't know what you're talking about but I'm pretty sure it's not the news about a cop killing an unarmed civilian.

It's a direct reply to your reply. Has nothing to do with the original topic.

My point was that this is not the time to be talking about how cops aren't half-cocked lethal weapons. Cops are trained to avoid risking life, but any call out could be a life-threatening situation.

Was this a life-threatening situation? If so, according to you the cop was wrong for not following his training. If not, according to you he killed someone without justification. Who is "implying the cop isn't enforcing the law but committing murder."?
 
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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50. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 14:19 Kxmode
 
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 14:16:
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 14:00:
I don't know what you're talking about but I'm pretty sure it's not the news about a cop killing an unarmed civilian.
Quboid, your responding to someone who has already quoted from a book of magic fables, quit while your ahead.

Thank you, for giving me one day of peace.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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49. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 14:16 RedEye9
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 14:00:
I don't know what you're talking about but I'm pretty sure it's not the news about a cop killing an unarmed civilian.
Quboid, your responding to someone who has already quoted from a book of magic fables, quit while your ahead.
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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48. : Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 14:11 Kxmode
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 14:00:
Kxmode wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 13:50:
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:56:
Kxmode wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:51:
Beamer: "If a cop is ready to kill, he needs to be ready to die," implying the cop isn't enforcing the law but committing murder.

It seems obvious to me that Beamer meant that if someone chooses to put themselves in life-threatening situations - and is paid handsomely accordingly - then they should accept that they're going to be in life-threatening situations. That means accepting danger as part of the job, so not killing any possible, hypothetical threat as soon as possible.

All police officers are trained not to put themselves in life-threatening situations regardless of the fact that each situation has the potential to become one. In other words, police officers typically go into a situation with caution. They also go through extensive psyche evaluations to ensure they aren't half-cocked lethal weapons.

I don't know what you're talking about but I'm pretty sure it's not the news about a cop killing an unarmed civilian.

It's a direct reply to your reply. Has nothing to do with the original topic.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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47. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 14:10 Kxmode
 
NKD wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 13:25:
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 10:13:

No. The US Supreme Court has ruled surveillance that penetrates houses is not legal. ie: Thermal imagers, sound, etc. It violates people's right to privacy.

Dude you were a cop, you should know this is incorrect. In the scenario we're talking about, that doesn't matter. 911 has been called to the address, claiming a serious situation. Exigent circumstance generally makes warrantless surveillance legal in terms of the 4th Amendment.

As of 2017, the government can enter and search private property without a warrant in parts of Virginia, Maryland and D.C.. Everywhere else, police officers are still required to get a court-ordered search warrant. There are, however, situations when one is not needed.

- Consent. If the police show up at your door and ask you if they can come inside to search for drugs and you consent to the search, then the police do not need a warrant.
- Emergency. If the police's search is in an emergency situation, then they may not need a search warrant. For example, if the police are pursuing an armed suspect that has disappeared into a small neighborhood, they may not need a search warrant to search any of the homes there because the suspect is putting the residents at risk.
- Searches incident to arrest. After a person has been arrested by the police, the law enforcement officers may conduct a search of the person and his immediate surroundings for weapons that may be dangerous to the officers or others.
- Plain view. Police do not need a search warrant to seize evidence that is in plain view of a place where the police are legally authorized to be.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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46. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 14:00 Quboid
 
Kxmode wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 13:50:
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:56:
Kxmode wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:51:
Beamer: "If a cop is ready to kill, he needs to be ready to die," implying the cop isn't enforcing the law but committing murder.

It seems obvious to me that Beamer meant that if someone chooses to put themselves in life-threatening situations - and is paid handsomely accordingly - then they should accept that they're going to be in life-threatening situations. That means accepting danger as part of the job, so not killing any possible, hypothetical threat as soon as possible.

All police officers are trained not to put themselves in life-threatening situations regardless of the fact that each situation has the potential to become one. In other words, police officers typically go into a situation with caution. They also go through extensive psyche evaluations to ensure they aren't half-cocked lethal weapons.

I don't know what you're talking about but I'm pretty sure it's not the news about a cop killing an unarmed civilian.
 
Avatar 10439
 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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45. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 13:50 Kxmode
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:56:
Kxmode wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:51:
Beamer: "If a cop is ready to kill, he needs to be ready to die," implying the cop isn't enforcing the law but committing murder.

It seems obvious to me that Beamer meant that if someone chooses to put themselves in life-threatening situations - and is paid handsomely accordingly - then they should accept that they're going to be in life-threatening situations. That means accepting danger as part of the job, so not killing any possible, hypothetical threat as soon as possible.

All police officers are trained not to put themselves in life-threatening situations regardless of the fact that each situation has the potential to become one. In other words, police officers typically go into a situation with caution. They also go through extensive psyche evaluations to ensure they aren't half-cocked lethal weapons.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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44. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 13:25 NKD
 
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 10:13:

No. The US Supreme Court has ruled surveillance that penetrates houses is not legal. ie: Thermal imagers, sound, etc. It violates people's right to privacy.

Dude you were a cop, you should know this is incorrect. In the scenario we're talking about, that doesn't matter. 911 has been called to the address, claiming a serious situation. Exigent circumstance generally makes warrantless surveillance legal in terms of the 4th Amendment.
 
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You mechs may have copper wiring to reroute your fear of pain, but I've got nerves of steel.
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43. Re: Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 11:56 Quboid
 
Kxmode wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:51:
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:44:
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 10:14:
I think anyone stating a human should die because of their job is a puke.

No one stated that, come on.

Beamer: "If a cop is ready to kill, he needs to be ready to die," implying the cop isn't enforcing the law but committing murder.

It seems obvious to me that Beamer meant that if someone chooses to put themselves in life-threatening situations - and is paid handsomely accordingly - then they should accept that they're going to be in life-threatening situations. That means accepting danger as part of the job, so not killing any possible, hypothetical threat as soon as possible.
 
Avatar 10439
 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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42. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 11:51 Kxmode
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 11:44:
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 10:14:
I think anyone stating a human should die because of their job is a puke.

No one stated that, come on.

Beamer: "If a cop is ready to kill, he needs to be ready to die," implying the cop isn't enforcing the law but committing murder.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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41. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 11:44 Quboid
 
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 10:14:
I think anyone stating a human should die because of their job is a puke.

No one stated that, come on.
 
Avatar 10439
 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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40. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 11:38 Kxmode
 
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 10:14:
I think anyone stating a human should die because of their job is a puke.

Yup. Not even Almighty God wants to see anyone die. "Have I ever rejoiced over the destruction of my enemy Or gloated because evil befell him?" (Job 31:29)
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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39. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 10:14 Retired
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 10:03:
1badmf wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 19:47:
NamecaF wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 19:24:
LOL. I love you armchair detectives. You have no idea how the real world or tactical situations work.

i mean, like i said in yesterday's article, it's the cop's job to risk their lives to protect their citizenry. yes, even from themselves. it should be their standard operating procedure to assume a suspect is innocent until there is incontrovertible proof he's a danger.

yes it will lead to more cop deaths.

but if more cop deaths leads to a corresponding drop in innocent people being murdered in their own homes by the police, i am perfectly ok with that. i know personally, if i was a swat officer, i wouldn't shoot until i actually saw a gun. would that be too late? likely, but at least i didn't kill someone i was supposed to be protecting in his own home. the death of police is an inevitability of the job. the death of innocent people by law enforcement should not be.

This. If a cop is ready to kill, he needs to be ready to die. And paid accordingly. In many places, they're paid far more than soldiers. Around here, six figures with pensions.

I think anyone stating a human should die because of their job is a puke.
 
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38. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 10:13 Retired
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 08:47:
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 08:10:
Retired wrote on Dec 31, 2017, 08:05:
Or park down the street, point a shotgun mic at the house wall from 100' away, then call them. Listen to what's going on inside the house before, during, and after the call.

Illegal.
But it's legal to shoot an unarmed, innocent man who is pulling up their pants.

It's OK for a cop to break the law if they decide it might help them avoid breaking a more important law?

What's needed for that sort of surveillance? Is there a warrant, and if so how quickly can one be got?

No. The US Supreme Court has ruled surveillance that penetrates houses is not legal. ie: Thermal imagers, sound, etc. It violates people's right to privacy.
 
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37. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 10:03 Beamer
 
1badmf wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 19:47:
NamecaF wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 19:24:
LOL. I love you armchair detectives. You have no idea how the real world or tactical situations work.

i mean, like i said in yesterday's article, it's the cop's job to risk their lives to protect their citizenry. yes, even from themselves. it should be their standard operating procedure to assume a suspect is innocent until there is incontrovertible proof he's a danger.

yes it will lead to more cop deaths.

but if more cop deaths leads to a corresponding drop in innocent people being murdered in their own homes by the police, i am perfectly ok with that. i know personally, if i was a swat officer, i wouldn't shoot until i actually saw a gun. would that be too late? likely, but at least i didn't kill someone i was supposed to be protecting in his own home. the death of police is an inevitability of the job. the death of innocent people by law enforcement should not be.

This. If a cop is ready to kill, he needs to be ready to die. And paid accordingly. In many places, they're paid far more than soldiers. Around here, six figures with pensions.
 
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36. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 09:21 Kxmode
 
Cutter wrote on Dec 30, 2017, 23:50:
How about someone sneak up and around back of the goddamned house and peep in some windows? Or maybe just get a $50 drone from Radio Shack to do it and see if anything looks or sounds like criminal activity? I mean shit, they can afford military hardware I don't think a drone or two will break the bank.

Exactly. Video looks like something out of a movie, albeit body cam quality.
 
Avatar 18786
 
William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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35. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 09:19 Redmask
 
Those countries don't have 300 million gun owners to worry about, it's probably a lot easier to be friendly when you don't have to worry about every single person in the country having a gun. Policing in America is a shitty job but someone has to do it. All we can do with situations like this is get rid of the incompetent ones or the unfortunate guys with PTSD. The problem with police isn't that they make mistakes, its that they circle the wagons and try to hide them. Cops cover up for other cops, justice is delayed by tedious investigations that tend to end without charges and you rarely hear a cop criticize another. The thin blue line bullshit needs to die. When you kill someone "by accident" you should end up as a mallcop with some pepper spray. If it was malicious then you need to go to prison like the rest of us would. I'm sorry but we have enough people wanting to be cops that we can afford to lose a few who fuck up that severely.
 
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34. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Dec 31, 2017, 08:52 Burrito of Peace
 
There are no simple solutions to fix incompetence on this level of tragedy. However, a good first step is to charge, try, and convict the shooting cop with first degree murder.

I think it's interesting that there exists a wide gulf between the operational mindset of US cops and, well, pretty much any other police force in a first world country.

A few personal examples of this is as follows:

I generally tend to get up most days at 0400, grab a quick cup of tea, and go for a walk.

In Sydney, a policeman stopped and said "Hey mate. Are you all right? Are you lost?" He was genuinely inquiring as to my well being. He was also kind enough to tell me what areas to avoid that early in the morning.

In the US, I have been stopped, questioned as to where I came from, where I was going, why I was walking that early in the morning, and on two separate occasions had my then dog threatened who was sitting very calmly at my feet.

In Canada, I was visiting my in-laws in a relatively small town west of Toronto and was asked to stop at a nearby store to pick some things up. I freely admit that I became lost on the way back. This was in the days before GPS enabled cellphones and Google maps. A local policeman also stopped me and, when I said that I had gotten a bit turned around, gave me a ride back while chatting rather pleasantly. Turns out he had gone to high school with my wife and knew exactly where her parents lived.

The plural of anecdote is not data but in just those examples, there was a marked difference between how the police forces of three different countries perceive a person of the random public and how they chose to interact with them.
 
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