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24.
 
Re: I watched more DOOM videos (not all of them [TL;DW]), with a guy's commentaries, from YouTube...
Dec 28, 2017, 19:00
24.
Re: I watched more DOOM videos (not all of them [TL;DW]), with a guy's commentaries, from YouTube... Dec 28, 2017, 19:00
Dec 28, 2017, 19:00
 
Muscular Beaver wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 16:46:
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 13:40:
Lithium ion batteries are less toxic than the lead acid batteries used in conventional engines. They're actually more landfill-safe. Once the recycling for these catches up to lead acid battery recycling (around 99% in the US), then they will definitely be the safer, cleaner option.
"Once"... More like if. Many "environment saving" technologies are actually not recyclable or its so hard to do that it costs more than just to make new ones. IFor Li-Ion batteries its so hard, that manufacturers actually buy old ones to put them all together to a huge one, to have some use from them still, which of course is extremely inefficient when charging or transporting.
You should inform yourself better how these resources are being mined and by whom and what their working conditions look like. Double standards par excellence.
But if you seriously compare tiny lead acid batteries, which can actually very easily and inexpensively be recycled and thus arent that bad for the environment, and will be sucked completely dry in an hour by my stereo running alone, with maybe 40 to 120 Ah to huge batteries like in the Model S with up to 100 KWh, then I dont think its even worth continuing...

You can't just compare the pollution of the creation and operation of the battery without also including at least the operation of the vehicle that it is installed in. So you have to include the emissions and other impacts of the vehicles in the environmental footprint. I haven't found a good article that shows that full impact.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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23.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 18:36
23.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 18:36
Dec 27, 2017, 18:36
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 17:37:
jdreyer wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 14:07:
ForgedReality wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:10:
All you're doing with electric cars is offsetting the energy cost. It is still there, just out of sight and out of mind. Batteries are toxic as hell too, so I have to wonder about the long-term environmental cost. All these leaking nuclear reactors is bad enough already.

Batteries can be recycled. Carbon monoxide can't.

Congratulations, that has to be the most scientifically illiterate statement I've read today. And, considering I just finished debating a creationist online a while ago, that's saying something...
jdreyer is allowed, he still has 5 left out of his yearly allotment of scientific illiterate statements.
Now me on the other hand, i will be starting the year with a deficit just like the current administration.
A mask is not a political statement.
It's an IQ test.
It's a compassion test.
It's a decency test.
It's a social responsibility test.
Avatar 58135
22.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 17:37
22.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 17:37
Dec 27, 2017, 17:37
 
jdreyer wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 14:07:
ForgedReality wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:10:
All you're doing with electric cars is offsetting the energy cost. It is still there, just out of sight and out of mind. Batteries are toxic as hell too, so I have to wonder about the long-term environmental cost. All these leaking nuclear reactors is bad enough already.

Batteries can be recycled. Carbon monoxide can't.

Congratulations, that has to be the most scientifically illiterate statement I've read today. And, considering I just finished debating a creationist online a while ago, that's saying something...
21.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 17:08
Beamer
 
21.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 17:08
Dec 27, 2017, 17:08
 Beamer
 
A Tesla is a luxury car. No one buys it to save money. No one. People buy them because electric has a flat torque curve is insanely fun to throw around virtually any road. And because they remain status symbols.

Basically, they're faster BMWs, or Audis, or AMG Mercedes, or whatever other car you want to mention.
20.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 16:57
20.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 16:57
Dec 27, 2017, 16:57
 
jdreyer wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 14:07:
ForgedReality wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:10:
All you're doing with electric cars is offsetting the energy cost. It is still there, just out of sight and out of mind. Batteries are toxic as hell too, so I have to wonder about the long-term environmental cost. All these leaking nuclear reactors is bad enough already.

Batteries can be recycled. Carbon monoxide can't.
Why should it? Youre saying it doesnt degrade in any form? If that was true, this planet would be dead.
Fact of the matter is that after about 2 months in the atmosphere carbon monoxide is being transformed into CO2, naturally. And its such a tiny amount, that it doesnt matter.

And no, not all batteries can be recycled. Lithium Ion Batteries can be reused in bigger units until they fail completely, but recycling them is either completely impossible or simply not viable because its too inefficient or costly. We are building a huge pile of them.
I have given up on waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
Avatar 12928
19.
 
Re: I watched more DOOM videos (not all of them [TL;DW]), with a guy's commentaries, from YouTube...
Dec 27, 2017, 16:46
19.
Re: I watched more DOOM videos (not all of them [TL;DW]), with a guy's commentaries, from YouTube... Dec 27, 2017, 16:46
Dec 27, 2017, 16:46
 
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 13:40:
wtf_man wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 13:19:
Cutter wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:00:
Yeah except who the hell wants a $100,000+ pickup truck with one seat?

I'm not 100% sure that is only one seat (one person). It looks lit the body widens towards the back of the cab. That said... it would be reminiscent of a 1930's cab, which barely can fit 2 people on a bench seat.

Several reasons I won't buy an EV any time soon:

1. Range (although it's getting better)
2. Time to charge
3. Price
4. Uglyness (aka Prius... although that is a hybrid and I said EV)
5. Battery Materials... Extremely toxic, another limited resource, and no proper disposal.

I would have loved to seen the market go more towards Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but there are obvious issues with that as well.

Lithium ion batteries are less toxic than the lead acid batteries used in conventional engines. They're actually more landfill-safe. Once the recycling for these catches up to lead acid battery recycling (around 99% in the US), then they will definitely be the safer, cleaner option.
"Once"... More like if. Many "environment saving" technologies are actually not recyclable or its so hard to do that it costs more than just to make new ones. IFor Li-Ion batteries its so hard, that manufacturers actually buy old ones to put them all together to a huge one, to have some use from them still, which of course is extremely inefficient when charging or transporting.
You should inform yourself better how these resources are being mined and by whom and what their working conditions look like. Double standards par excellence.
But if you seriously compare tiny lead acid batteries, which can actually very easily and inexpensively be recycled and thus arent that bad for the environment, and will be sucked completely dry in an hour by my stereo running alone, with maybe 40 to 120 Ah to huge batteries like in the Model S with up to 100 KWh, then I dont think its even worth continuing...
I have given up on waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
Avatar 12928
18.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 15:55
18.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 15:55
Dec 27, 2017, 15:55
 
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:58:
People are not buying ev's expecting to save money. If they are it just means they are bad at math.

This is a very true statement.

Avatar 57660
17.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 15:43
Cutter
 
17.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 15:43
Dec 27, 2017, 15:43
 Cutter
 
Thing is there are a lot of small and midsize trucks out there and more coming all starting at 25K+/- and going up from there. Next year the Ford Ranger returns - something I'm still considering waiting on. And the year after Jeep is coming out with a new Jeep Truck. And they'll be starting around 25k and 30k respectively (in Freedom Dollars of course). I can't imagine Tesla hitting anywhere close to that price point. So again, IF it happens at all it'll likely be a niche toy at best. Personally I'd like a VW Buzz before that.


Morty: You sold a gun to a murderer so you could play video games?
Rick: Yeah, sure, I mean, if you spend all day shuffling words around, you can make anything sound bad, Morty.
Avatar 25394
16.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 14:26
16.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 14:26
Dec 27, 2017, 14:26
 
Ozmodan wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 14:13:
Tesla should go ask Toyota and Nissan about the difficulties in building a pickup. Both have failed to dent the truck market even though their cars are very desired. Mainly because their vehicles do not stack up to American made trucks.

Personally I do not perceive any Tesla truck making a dent in the truck market except for special circumstances like local delivery. Tesla has never made money and does not project to do so in the near future. The have huge quality issues and even the experts are laughing at his quick charging claims.
They have not made a dent in the ev market either. Sometimes it's not about making dents.
A mask is not a political statement.
It's an IQ test.
It's a compassion test.
It's a decency test.
It's a social responsibility test.
Avatar 58135
15.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 14:13
15.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 14:13
Dec 27, 2017, 14:13
 
Tesla should go ask Toyota and Nissan about the difficulties in building a pickup. Both have failed to dent the truck market even though their cars are very desired. Mainly because their vehicles do not stack up to American made trucks.

Personally I do not perceive any Tesla truck making a dent in the truck market except for special circumstances like local delivery. Tesla has never made money and does not project to do so in the near future. The have huge quality issues and even the experts are laughing at his quick charging claims.
14.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 14:07
14.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 14:07
Dec 27, 2017, 14:07
 
ForgedReality wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:10:
All you're doing with electric cars is offsetting the energy cost. It is still there, just out of sight and out of mind. Batteries are toxic as hell too, so I have to wonder about the long-term environmental cost. All these leaking nuclear reactors is bad enough already.

Batteries can be recycled. Carbon monoxide can't.
To prevent CV-19, avoid the Serious Seven: weddings, funerals, faith-based activities, bars, gyms, house gatherings and other small events.
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13.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 13:57
13.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 13:57
Dec 27, 2017, 13:57
 
HorrorScope wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:11:
Cutter wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:00:
Yeah except who the hell wants a $100,000+ pickup truck with one seat? People either buy pickups for work or as family vehicles. The artist rendering makes it wholly impractical, electric or not. That looks like nothing more than a toy for city slickers to drive around.

There are people out there for sure that would buy that, but those that won't, are your typical truck owners, they'll want to stay gas/diesel as long as anybody. But there are people out there certainly.

Although I have had, and still continue to have, toy vehicles for fun and sunny weekends, I have had a truck as a daily driver for the entirety of my driving life. However, I am not adverse to an electric truck provided it offers the same utility as my current gas powered truck. It needs to be able to haul rock, hay, wood, camping gear, a trailer, a boat, and a bunch of other stuff I use a truck for. If an electric truck can do all that and still give me the 400ish mile range that my current gas powered truck can, I would consider it seriously.

Also, charge time needs to not be a pain in the ass. I've got a three prong, 220v, 50A outlet in the quonset hut so I would expect to plug the truck in when I got home and have it fully ready and available for the next day's usage.
"No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai

There are two types of computer users: Masochists and Linux users.

If you would like help or further details on a technical discussion we're having, email me at bnhelp (at sign) keepusiel.net . Pl
Avatar 21247
12.
 
Re: I watched more DOOM videos (not all of them [TL;DW]), with a guy's commentaries, from YouTube...
Dec 27, 2017, 13:40
12.
Re: I watched more DOOM videos (not all of them [TL;DW]), with a guy's commentaries, from YouTube... Dec 27, 2017, 13:40
Dec 27, 2017, 13:40
 
wtf_man wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 13:19:
Cutter wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:00:
Yeah except who the hell wants a $100,000+ pickup truck with one seat?

I'm not 100% sure that is only one seat (one person). It looks lit the body widens towards the back of the cab. That said... it would be reminiscent of a 1930's cab, which barely can fit 2 people on a bench seat.

Several reasons I won't buy an EV any time soon:

1. Range (although it's getting better)
2. Time to charge
3. Price
4. Uglyness (aka Prius... although that is a hybrid and I said EV)
5. Battery Materials... Extremely toxic, another limited resource, and no proper disposal.

I would have loved to seen the market go more towards Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but there are obvious issues with that as well.

Lithium ion batteries are less toxic than the lead acid batteries used in conventional engines. They're actually more landfill-safe. Once the recycling for these catches up to lead acid battery recycling (around 99% in the US), then they will definitely be the safer, cleaner option.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
Avatar 9540
11.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 13:19
11.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 13:19
Dec 27, 2017, 13:19
 
Cutter wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:00:
Yeah except who the hell wants a $100,000+ pickup truck with one seat?

I'm not 100% sure that is only one seat (one person). It looks lit the body widens towards the back of the cab. That said... it would be reminiscent of a 1930's cab, which barely can fit 2 people on a bench seat.

Several reasons I won't buy an EV any time soon:

1. Range (although it's getting better)
2. Time to charge
3. Price
4. Uglyness (aka Prius... although that is a hybrid and I said EV)
5. Battery Materials... Extremely toxic, another limited resource, and no proper disposal.

I would have loved to seen the market go more towards Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but there are obvious issues with that as well.
Get your games from GOG DAMMIT!
Avatar 19499
10.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 12:58
10.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 12:58
Dec 27, 2017, 12:58
 

People are not buying ev's expecting to save money. If they are it just means they are bad at math.
A mask is not a political statement.
It's an IQ test.
It's a compassion test.
It's a decency test.
It's a social responsibility test.
Avatar 58135
9.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 12:35
9.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 12:35
Dec 27, 2017, 12:35
 
Red wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:21:
Tumbler wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:28:
The model 3 is supposed to be 36,200 - 44,000. Assuming they can shave the price down to 30k even a pickup truck is reasonable at that price.

The real question becomes how long does the savings take to pay off? A gas engine pickup new can be half that price, 15k new, so how long does it take to start saving?

Do you ever start saving? I’ve never tried to the math on a Tesla, but I did buy a new Camry last year. And as I was doing the math of the hyrbid vs gas, the break-even was after 9 years of owership. And that was me assuming the hybrid has identical long term maintenance cnsiderations (which i don’t think is actually true).

Until gas prices skyrocket, hybids and electrics are not more practical. They’re cool. They’re advancing technology. But they are not cost effective to an owner.
Teslas are known for their horrible quality and reliability. Tesla alone spends more than twice as much money on warranty cases than Ford or GM. But if you think those 2 have exceptional quality, I guess a Tesla will be something for you...
High warranty costs reflect Tesla’s struggle with quality
I have given up on waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
Avatar 12928
8.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 12:21
Red
8.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 12:21
Dec 27, 2017, 12:21
Red
 
Tumbler wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:28:
The model 3 is supposed to be 36,200 - 44,000. Assuming they can shave the price down to 30k even a pickup truck is reasonable at that price.

The real question becomes how long does the savings take to pay off? A gas engine pickup new can be half that price, 15k new, so how long does it take to start saving?

Do you ever start saving? I’ve never tried to the math on a Tesla, but I did buy a new Camry last year. And as I was doing the math of the hyrbid vs gas, the break-even was after 9 years of owership. And that was me assuming the hybrid has identical long term maintenance cnsiderations (which i don’t think is actually true).

Until gas prices skyrocket, hybids and electrics are not more practical. They’re cool. They’re advancing technology. But they are not cost effective to an owner.
Avatar 8335
7.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 12:10
7.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 12:10
Dec 27, 2017, 12:10
 
All you're doing with electric cars is offsetting the energy cost. It is still there, just out of sight and out of mind. Batteries are toxic as hell too, so I have to wonder about the long-term environmental cost. All these leaking nuclear reactors is bad enough already.
Avatar 55267
6.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 11:28
6.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 11:28
Dec 27, 2017, 11:28
 
The model 3 is supposed to be 36,200 - 44,000. Assuming they can shave the price down to 30k even a pickup truck is reasonable at that price.

The real question becomes how long does the savings take to pay off? A gas engine pickup new can be half that price, 15k new, so how long does it take to start saving?
5.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Dec 27, 2017, 11:11
5.
Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 11:11
Dec 27, 2017, 11:11
 
Cutter wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:00:
Yeah except who the hell wants a $100,000+ pickup truck with one seat? People either buy pickups for work or as family vehicles. The artist rendering makes it wholly impractical, electric or not. That looks like nothing more than a toy for city slickers to drive around.

There are people out there for sure that would buy that, but those that won't, are your typical truck owners, they'll want to stay gas/diesel as long as anybody. But there are people out there certainly.
Avatar 17232
24 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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