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Morning Mobilization

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24. Re: I watched more DOOM videos (not all of them [TL;DW]), with a guy's commentaries, from YouTube... Dec 28, 2017, 19:00 Wowbagger_TIP
 
Muscular Beaver wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 16:46:
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 13:40:
Lithium ion batteries are less toxic than the lead acid batteries used in conventional engines. They're actually more landfill-safe. Once the recycling for these catches up to lead acid battery recycling (around 99% in the US), then they will definitely be the safer, cleaner option.
"Once"... More like if. Many "environment saving" technologies are actually not recyclable or its so hard to do that it costs more than just to make new ones. IFor Li-Ion batteries its so hard, that manufacturers actually buy old ones to put them all together to a huge one, to have some use from them still, which of course is extremely inefficient when charging or transporting.
You should inform yourself better how these resources are being mined and by whom and what their working conditions look like. Double standards par excellence.
But if you seriously compare tiny lead acid batteries, which can actually very easily and inexpensively be recycled and thus arent that bad for the environment, and will be sucked completely dry in an hour by my stereo running alone, with maybe 40 to 120 Ah to huge batteries like in the Model S with up to 100 KWh, then I dont think its even worth continuing...

You can't just compare the pollution of the creation and operation of the battery without also including at least the operation of the vehicle that it is installed in. So you have to include the emissions and other impacts of the vehicles in the environmental footprint. I haven't found a good article that shows that full impact.
 
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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23. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 18:36 RedEye9
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 17:37:
jdreyer wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 14:07:
ForgedReality wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:10:
All you're doing with electric cars is offsetting the energy cost. It is still there, just out of sight and out of mind. Batteries are toxic as hell too, so I have to wonder about the long-term environmental cost. All these leaking nuclear reactors is bad enough already.

Batteries can be recycled. Carbon monoxide can't.

Congratulations, that has to be the most scientifically illiterate statement I've read today. And, considering I just finished debating a creationist online a while ago, that's saying something...
jdreyer is allowed, he still has 5 left out of his yearly allotment of scientific illiterate statements.
Now me on the other hand, i will be starting the year with a deficit just like the current administration.
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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22. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 17:37 Eirikrautha
 
jdreyer wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 14:07:
ForgedReality wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:10:
All you're doing with electric cars is offsetting the energy cost. It is still there, just out of sight and out of mind. Batteries are toxic as hell too, so I have to wonder about the long-term environmental cost. All these leaking nuclear reactors is bad enough already.

Batteries can be recycled. Carbon monoxide can't.

Congratulations, that has to be the most scientifically illiterate statement I've read today. And, considering I just finished debating a creationist online a while ago, that's saying something...
 
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21. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 17:08 Beamer
 
A Tesla is a luxury car. No one buys it to save money. No one. People buy them because electric has a flat torque curve is insanely fun to throw around virtually any road. And because they remain status symbols.

Basically, they're faster BMWs, or Audis, or AMG Mercedes, or whatever other car you want to mention.
 
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20. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 16:57 Muscular Beaver
 
jdreyer wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 14:07:
ForgedReality wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:10:
All you're doing with electric cars is offsetting the energy cost. It is still there, just out of sight and out of mind. Batteries are toxic as hell too, so I have to wonder about the long-term environmental cost. All these leaking nuclear reactors is bad enough already.

Batteries can be recycled. Carbon monoxide can't.
Why should it? Youre saying it doesnt degrade in any form? If that was true, this planet would be dead.
Fact of the matter is that after about 2 months in the atmosphere carbon monoxide is being transformed into CO2, naturally. And its such a tiny amount, that it doesnt matter.

And no, not all batteries can be recycled. Lithium Ion Batteries can be reused in bigger units until they fail completely, but recycling them is either completely impossible or simply not viable because its too inefficient or costly. We are building a huge pile of them.
 
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Waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
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19. Re: I watched more DOOM videos (not all of them [TL;DW]), with a guy's commentaries, from YouTube... Dec 27, 2017, 16:46 Muscular Beaver
 
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 13:40:
wtf_man wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 13:19:
Cutter wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:00:
Yeah except who the hell wants a $100,000+ pickup truck with one seat?

I'm not 100% sure that is only one seat (one person). It looks lit the body widens towards the back of the cab. That said... it would be reminiscent of a 1930's cab, which barely can fit 2 people on a bench seat.

Several reasons I won't buy an EV any time soon:

1. Range (although it's getting better)
2. Time to charge
3. Price
4. Uglyness (aka Prius... although that is a hybrid and I said EV)
5. Battery Materials... Extremely toxic, another limited resource, and no proper disposal.

I would have loved to seen the market go more towards Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but there are obvious issues with that as well.

Lithium ion batteries are less toxic than the lead acid batteries used in conventional engines. They're actually more landfill-safe. Once the recycling for these catches up to lead acid battery recycling (around 99% in the US), then they will definitely be the safer, cleaner option.
"Once"... More like if. Many "environment saving" technologies are actually not recyclable or its so hard to do that it costs more than just to make new ones. IFor Li-Ion batteries its so hard, that manufacturers actually buy old ones to put them all together to a huge one, to have some use from them still, which of course is extremely inefficient when charging or transporting.
You should inform yourself better how these resources are being mined and by whom and what their working conditions look like. Double standards par excellence.
But if you seriously compare tiny lead acid batteries, which can actually very easily and inexpensively be recycled and thus arent that bad for the environment, and will be sucked completely dry in an hour by my stereo running alone, with maybe 40 to 120 Ah to huge batteries like in the Model S with up to 100 KWh, then I dont think its even worth continuing...
 
Avatar 12928
 
Waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
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18. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 15:55 Tipsy McStagger
 
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:58:
People are not buying ev's expecting to save money. If they are it just means they are bad at math.

This is a very true statement.

 
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17. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 15:43 Cutter
 
Thing is there are a lot of small and midsize trucks out there and more coming all starting at 25K+/- and going up from there. Next year the Ford Ranger returns - something I'm still considering waiting on. And the year after Jeep is coming out with a new Jeep Truck. And they'll be starting around 25k and 30k respectively (in Freedom Dollars of course). I can't imagine Tesla hitting anywhere close to that price point. So again, IF it happens at all it'll likely be a niche toy at best. Personally I'd like a VW Buzz before that.


 
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"They call me a chauvinist pig. I am . . . and I don't give a damn!" - Steve McQueen
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16. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 14:26 RedEye9
 
Ozmodan wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 14:13:
Tesla should go ask Toyota and Nissan about the difficulties in building a pickup. Both have failed to dent the truck market even though their cars are very desired. Mainly because their vehicles do not stack up to American made trucks.

Personally I do not perceive any Tesla truck making a dent in the truck market except for special circumstances like local delivery. Tesla has never made money and does not project to do so in the near future. The have huge quality issues and even the experts are laughing at his quick charging claims.
They have not made a dent in the ev market either. Sometimes it's not about making dents.
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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15. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 14:13 Ozmodan
 
Tesla should go ask Toyota and Nissan about the difficulties in building a pickup. Both have failed to dent the truck market even though their cars are very desired. Mainly because their vehicles do not stack up to American made trucks.

Personally I do not perceive any Tesla truck making a dent in the truck market except for special circumstances like local delivery. Tesla has never made money and does not project to do so in the near future. The have huge quality issues and even the experts are laughing at his quick charging claims.
 
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14. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 14:07 jdreyer
 
ForgedReality wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:10:
All you're doing with electric cars is offsetting the energy cost. It is still there, just out of sight and out of mind. Batteries are toxic as hell too, so I have to wonder about the long-term environmental cost. All these leaking nuclear reactors is bad enough already.

Batteries can be recycled. Carbon monoxide can't.
 
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If Star Citizen was a child conceived in a night of passion, it would have started elementary school by now. -panbient
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13. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 13:57 Burrito of Peace
 
HorrorScope wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:11:
Cutter wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:00:
Yeah except who the hell wants a $100,000+ pickup truck with one seat? People either buy pickups for work or as family vehicles. The artist rendering makes it wholly impractical, electric or not. That looks like nothing more than a toy for city slickers to drive around.

There are people out there for sure that would buy that, but those that won't, are your typical truck owners, they'll want to stay gas/diesel as long as anybody. But there are people out there certainly.

Although I have had, and still continue to have, toy vehicles for fun and sunny weekends, I have had a truck as a daily driver for the entirety of my driving life. However, I am not adverse to an electric truck provided it offers the same utility as my current gas powered truck. It needs to be able to haul rock, hay, wood, camping gear, a trailer, a boat, and a bunch of other stuff I use a truck for. If an electric truck can do all that and still give me the 400ish mile range that my current gas powered truck can, I would consider it seriously.

Also, charge time needs to not be a pain in the ass. I've got a three prong, 220v, 50A outlet in the quonset hut so I would expect to plug the truck in when I got home and have it fully ready and available for the next day's usage.
 
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12. Re: I watched more DOOM videos (not all of them [TL;DW]), with a guy's commentaries, from YouTube... Dec 27, 2017, 13:40 Wowbagger_TIP
 
wtf_man wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 13:19:
Cutter wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:00:
Yeah except who the hell wants a $100,000+ pickup truck with one seat?

I'm not 100% sure that is only one seat (one person). It looks lit the body widens towards the back of the cab. That said... it would be reminiscent of a 1930's cab, which barely can fit 2 people on a bench seat.

Several reasons I won't buy an EV any time soon:

1. Range (although it's getting better)
2. Time to charge
3. Price
4. Uglyness (aka Prius... although that is a hybrid and I said EV)
5. Battery Materials... Extremely toxic, another limited resource, and no proper disposal.

I would have loved to seen the market go more towards Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but there are obvious issues with that as well.

Lithium ion batteries are less toxic than the lead acid batteries used in conventional engines. They're actually more landfill-safe. Once the recycling for these catches up to lead acid battery recycling (around 99% in the US), then they will definitely be the safer, cleaner option.
 
Avatar 9540
 
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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11. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 13:19 wtf_man
 
Cutter wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:00:
Yeah except who the hell wants a $100,000+ pickup truck with one seat?

I'm not 100% sure that is only one seat (one person). It looks lit the body widens towards the back of the cab. That said... it would be reminiscent of a 1930's cab, which barely can fit 2 people on a bench seat.

Several reasons I won't buy an EV any time soon:

1. Range (although it's getting better)
2. Time to charge
3. Price
4. Uglyness (aka Prius... although that is a hybrid and I said EV)
5. Battery Materials... Extremely toxic, another limited resource, and no proper disposal.

I would have loved to seen the market go more towards Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but there are obvious issues with that as well.
 
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"Did you even read cutters post or are you just suffering from rectal cranial inversion." - RedEye9
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10. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 12:58 RedEye9
 

People are not buying ev's expecting to save money. If they are it just means they are bad at math.
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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9. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 12:35 Muscular Beaver
 
Red wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 12:21:
Tumbler wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:28:
The model 3 is supposed to be 36,200 - 44,000. Assuming they can shave the price down to 30k even a pickup truck is reasonable at that price.

The real question becomes how long does the savings take to pay off? A gas engine pickup new can be half that price, 15k new, so how long does it take to start saving?

Do you ever start saving? I’ve never tried to the math on a Tesla, but I did buy a new Camry last year. And as I was doing the math of the hyrbid vs gas, the break-even was after 9 years of owership. And that was me assuming the hybrid has identical long term maintenance cnsiderations (which i don’t think is actually true).

Until gas prices skyrocket, hybids and electrics are not more practical. They’re cool. They’re advancing technology. But they are not cost effective to an owner.
Teslas are known for their horrible quality and reliability. Tesla alone spends more than twice as much money on warranty cases than Ford or GM. But if you think those 2 have exceptional quality, I guess a Tesla will be something for you...
High warranty costs reflect Tesla’s struggle with quality
 
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Waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
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8. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 12:21 Red
 
Tumbler wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:28:
The model 3 is supposed to be 36,200 - 44,000. Assuming they can shave the price down to 30k even a pickup truck is reasonable at that price.

The real question becomes how long does the savings take to pay off? A gas engine pickup new can be half that price, 15k new, so how long does it take to start saving?

Do you ever start saving? I’ve never tried to the math on a Tesla, but I did buy a new Camry last year. And as I was doing the math of the hyrbid vs gas, the break-even was after 9 years of owership. And that was me assuming the hybrid has identical long term maintenance cnsiderations (which i don’t think is actually true).

Until gas prices skyrocket, hybids and electrics are not more practical. They’re cool. They’re advancing technology. But they are not cost effective to an owner.
 
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7. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 12:10 ForgedReality
 
All you're doing with electric cars is offsetting the energy cost. It is still there, just out of sight and out of mind. Batteries are toxic as hell too, so I have to wonder about the long-term environmental cost. All these leaking nuclear reactors is bad enough already.  
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6. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 11:28 Tumbler
 
The model 3 is supposed to be 36,200 - 44,000. Assuming they can shave the price down to 30k even a pickup truck is reasonable at that price.

The real question becomes how long does the savings take to pay off? A gas engine pickup new can be half that price, 15k new, so how long does it take to start saving?
 
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5. Re: Morning Mobilization Dec 27, 2017, 11:11 HorrorScope
 
Cutter wrote on Dec 27, 2017, 11:00:
Yeah except who the hell wants a $100,000+ pickup truck with one seat? People either buy pickups for work or as family vehicles. The artist rendering makes it wholly impractical, electric or not. That looks like nothing more than a toy for city slickers to drive around.

There are people out there for sure that would buy that, but those that won't, are your typical truck owners, they'll want to stay gas/diesel as long as anybody. But there are people out there certainly.
 
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