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More Boxing with Loot Boxing

PC Gamer added a follow-up after we reported their story saying Belgium had labeled in-game loot boxes as gambling. Word is this is not yet an official proclamation. They say: "Belgium's Gaming Commission has not actually finalized its decision on whether loot boxes are gambling. The site says the statement that appeared in the original report, stating that the 'mixture of money and addiction is a game of chance,' is descriptive of the investigation's intent rather than its conclusion." In contrast, Kotaku Australia and PowerUp have articles saying the Australian state of Victoria has concluded that loot boxes are gambling, though this is based on correspondence posted on reddit, rather than some sort of official declaration (thanks MP1ST). Here's a bit from that source email:

Your research and suppositions on the matter are correct; what occurs with "loot boxes" does constitute gambling by the definition of the Victorian Legislation. Unfortunately where the complexity arises is in jurisdiction and our powers to investigate. Legislation has not moved as quick as the technology; at both State and Federal level we are not necessarily equipped to determine the legality of these practices in lieu of the fact the entities responsible are overseas.

We are currently engaging with interstate and international counter parts to progress wider policy changes and to modernise and inform both Federal and State based legislation. We take on board responses from the community, such as your concerns, to ensure that our actions are reflective of the risks these products pose as well as the community’s expectation. Watching recent Reddit activity certainly indicates the majority of the gaming community is at odds with decisions made by certain companies.

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18 Replies. 1 pages. Viewing page 1.
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18. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 12:37 Mr. Tact
 
HorrorScope wrote on Nov 24, 2017, 12:35:
To say things can't happen... Draft Kings and the like were a lot mightier two years ago, with major investors behind it. They got neutered due to behaviors and are now a shell.
Really? I knew there had been a big stink about them and a couple of states had classified it as gambling, but I thought overall they were still going strong. Interesting...
 
Truth is brutal. Prepare for pain.
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17. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 12:35 HorrorScope
 
To say things can't happen... Draft Kings and the like were a lot mightier two years ago, with major investors behind it. They got neutered due to behaviors and are now a shell.  
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16. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 11:37 eRe4s3r
 
Slick wrote on Nov 24, 2017, 01:16:
BULLSHIT.

that's right, I call bullshit.

There are 2 conversations that need to be happening:

1) Is actual or quasi pay2win mechanics good/moral/legal/for the children?

2) Lootbox progression.

Lootbox progression has been in gaming since the beginning...

Ask your grandpa about how he used to ROLL THE DIE to find out what loot he got playing DnD.

Give me a fucking break. Luck, Chance. These mechanics are fundamental to gaming, and have been engrained for over 40 years.

That's a different conversation from a perceived or real Pay2Win mechanic. Good luck getting laws passed on that shit, having to quantify in legalese the specific derivation between normal progression and paid progression and where to draw the line in every single game is never going to happen. It's a fucking shit show. They'll either completely outlaw it or won't, and I seriously doubt it's going to be outlawed.

I call bullshit on your calling bullshit

Firstly, loot in DnD was never random and you didn't roll for "loot" normally, and you never had to pay money to roll for loot. If you ever had to do that, then the campaign you played was mass market shit and not hand crafted and properly mastered. Like seriously, which serious dungeon master had random loot? How you gonna plan your progression with that element (Answer: you don't, hence why nobody worth a damn did random loot...) it was electronic DnD, BG1 only partially, that did random loot very limited, but you could never find a +5 weapon on a goblin or an iron weapon on a Drow.. even when random these systems were always heavily mastered and guided to prevent power bumps and overpoweredness (not that BG2 for example, could ever fight overpoweredness past level 20 where DnD leveling went into demi-god territory and shit just got absurdly OP on both sides). Anyhow, I digress....

Secondly, this has nothing to do with luck and chance, these systems use exploitive methods to get young adults and children to pay for shit they don't need, but are constantly positively enforced that they do in fact, need it and this includes loot boxes. Gambling is illegal for children and paid for loot boxes ARE gambling, especially scummy form of it when the entire marketing and gameplay focuses on making children and young adults get them. What G2A does for example, selling games in loot-boxes is also 100% illegal in the EU. But that's just an aside.

Thirdly, this got nothing to do with loot aka, drops in games from gameplay. But when you can buy them (and it's random), THEN it becomes a legal problem.

You are however 100% correct that pay to win is not ever going to be illegal ^^ That's however irrelevant, gambling is what is regulated FOR A REASON. And there is a reason children are not allowed to gamble. If you had ANY clue about psychology of children you'd know instantly why that is. And why you should never let a child anywhere near a mobile game or if you do, not with the ability to spend ANY money!

Finally, if you look up the Activision patent on loot-boxes and psychology manipulation through in-game notifications then you will understand why this shit has to stop.
 
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15. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 09:50 RedEye9
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 24, 2017, 01:22:
Slick wrote on Nov 24, 2017, 01:16:
Lootbox progression has been in gaming since the beginning...

Ask your grandpa about how he used to ROLL THE DIE to find out what loot he got playing DnD.

Give me a fucking break. Luck, Chance. These mechanics are fundamental to gaming, and have been engrained for over 40 years.
Totally misses the point. You didn't have to cough up $5 to roll those dice. The complaint isn't RNG sucks. The complaint is having to pay extra to even get a RNG roll. And the fact progression is sometimes essentially locked behind a payment requirement.
Exactly, why does this even need to be explained. Oh it's slick, nvrmnd.
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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14. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 08:32 Alamar
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 24, 2017, 01:22:
Slick wrote on Nov 24, 2017, 01:16:
Lootbox progression has been in gaming since the beginning...

Ask your grandpa about how he used to ROLL THE DIE to find out what loot he got playing DnD.

Give me a fucking break. Luck, Chance. These mechanics are fundamental to gaming, and have been engrained for over 40 years.
Totally misses the point. You didn't have to cough up $5 to roll those dice. The complaint isn't RNG sucks. The complaint is having to pay extra to even get a RNG roll. And the fact progression is sometimes essentially locked behind a payment requirement.

Not totally... He makes a great point that no one else seems to be thinking about in this whole controversy...

We're gamers... We're the experts... We (mostly) understand that a paid loot box, like in Battlefront II, Shadow of War, etc, could be considered gambling, and therefore need a gambling license to keep that kind of shit in...

But who's going to be the ones stating that Game A has gambling, but Game B doesn't? Because I'm afraid that many more games are going to be in list A (gambling) erroneously, than those in list B erroneously.

And if gambling is determined by RNG + $$$, the easy solution for publishers is to keep it all in the game, but remove the RNG...
 
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13. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 08:32 Muscular Beaver
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 24, 2017, 03:41:
DangerDog wrote on Nov 23, 2017, 15:09:
Good luck with the protest, will especially enjoy seeing how this impacts mobile gaming.

They've been around for such a long time but it took a Star Wars game to push people to the breaking point?

This year more games with lootboxes than the entire years previously combined, so yeah, this year has been QUITE different and that's why it explodes. It has nothing to do with the star wars game, it's the *mass* of lootboxes and micro-transactions everywhere that triggered it.

Its a disease on mobile games. Has been as long as I can remember.
Even very good games make you quit the game very early, because you simply cant continue without paying for them, most of the time hundreds of dollars, unless you start massive grinding, which is even worse on mobile devices than it ever was on PC (ok, some games already got their mobile system on PC, like the Wargaming games: World of Warships, World of Tanks, etc, which is pure cancer actually - no game ever drove me as mad as World of Warships).

If this is starting on PC games as well, even for paid games, then its good its faced with shit storms (even if they are overdone), before it can establish itself fully.
 
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Waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
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12. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 05:00 Luke
 
DangerDog wrote on Nov 23, 2017, 15:09:
Good luck with the protest, will especially enjoy seeing how this impacts mobile gaming.

They've been around for such a long time but it took a Star Wars game to push people to the breaking point?

Yeah and it took a Weinstein to open the legs on all pukeable feminist .....
 
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11. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 03:41 eRe4s3r
 
DangerDog wrote on Nov 23, 2017, 15:09:
Good luck with the protest, will especially enjoy seeing how this impacts mobile gaming.

They've been around for such a long time but it took a Star Wars game to push people to the breaking point?

This year more games with lootboxes than the entire years previously combined, so yeah, this year has been QUITE different and that's why it explodes. It has nothing to do with the star wars game, it's the *mass* of lootboxes and micro-transactions everywhere that triggered it.
 
Avatar 54727
 
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10. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 03:22 ShakaUVM
 
RIP Blizzard  
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9. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 01:22 Mr. Tact
 
Slick wrote on Nov 24, 2017, 01:16:
Lootbox progression has been in gaming since the beginning...

Ask your grandpa about how he used to ROLL THE DIE to find out what loot he got playing DnD.

Give me a fucking break. Luck, Chance. These mechanics are fundamental to gaming, and have been engrained for over 40 years.
Totally misses the point. You didn't have to cough up $5 to roll those dice. The complaint isn't RNG sucks. The complaint is having to pay extra to even get a RNG roll. And the fact progression is sometimes essentially locked behind a payment requirement.
 
Truth is brutal. Prepare for pain.
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8. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 24, 2017, 01:16 Slick
 
BULLSHIT.

that's right, I call bullshit.

There are 2 conversations that need to be happening:

1) Is actual or quasi pay2win mechanics good/moral/legal/for the children?

2) Lootbox progression.

Lootbox progression has been in gaming since the beginning...

Ask your grandpa about how he used to ROLL THE DIE to find out what loot he got playing DnD.

Give me a fucking break. Luck, Chance. These mechanics are fundamental to gaming, and have been engrained for over 40 years.

That's a different conversation from a perceived or real Pay2Win mechanic. Good luck getting laws passed on that shit, having to quantify in legalese the specific derivation between normal progression and paid progression and where to draw the line in every single game is never going to happen. It's a fucking shit show. They'll either completely outlaw it or won't, and I seriously doubt it's going to be outlawed.
 
Avatar 57545
 
(Regarding SW:Battlefront II) Frostshite is a horrible piece of shit engine that makes games look artificial as if you were playing on a movie set instead of the actual location. -CJ_Parker
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7. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 23, 2017, 20:25 Asmodai
 
DangerDog wrote on Nov 23, 2017, 15:09:
Good luck with the protest, will especially enjoy seeing how this impacts mobile gaming.

They've been around for such a long time but it took a Star Wars game to push people to the breaking point?

I think that it was so egregious in this case that a shitstorm was inevitable.

Between the flat out pay 2 win factor (cards = significant power up, more cards = more chance to wipe the flaw with standard players), the fact that it was in a premium price AAA type game, and last but not least, the fact that the previous game was such a shit show and the devs promised with all their hearts that this one would be better in every way were just too much.

The good thing is that it has legitimised the complaints about other loot box based games, and hopefully shown that people can vote with their wallets and not just buy everything regardless of how badly it treats you.
 
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6. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 23, 2017, 17:38 Cutter
 
DangerDog wrote on Nov 23, 2017, 15:09:
Good luck with the protest, will especially enjoy seeing how this impacts mobile gaming.

They've been around for such a long time but it took a Star Wars game to push people to the breaking point?

That was more timing than anything else. It always takes a while for any major event to gather critical mass. A lot of people have been looking at this issue for a lot longer now. I'll just be happy if al govts start declaring it gambling. So not only would a company have to apply for a gambling license, and all the regulatory oversight that goes with it, they'll tax the shit out of them too. So it they can do that that'll make it completely unpalatable/unfeasable for the overwhelming majority of scumbag devs/pubs who want in on this scummy action.
 
Avatar 25394
 
You've got to be cruel to be kind...in the right measure.
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5. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 23, 2017, 15:09 DangerDog
 
Good luck with the protest, will especially enjoy seeing how this impacts mobile gaming.

They've been around for such a long time but it took a Star Wars game to push people to the breaking point?
 
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4. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 23, 2017, 14:17 jdreyer
 
Creston wrote on Nov 23, 2017, 12:57:
Burn lootboxes, burn.

... lootbox inferno?

Why do you hate presents? Do you hate Christmas?
 
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Stay a while, and listen.
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3. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 23, 2017, 14:04 SpectralMeat
 
The great lootbox dumpster fire of 2017  
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Steam: SpectralMeat
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2. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 23, 2017, 13:44 rawbelly
 
As a crabby old guy gamer I'm just sitting back watching this all unfold...with a big, dumb grin on my face. I'm thinking, "now look what you done brought on yourselves."  
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1. Re: More Boxing with Loot Boxing Nov 23, 2017, 12:57 Creston
 
Burn lootboxes, burn.

... lootbox inferno?
 
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