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29. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 22, 2017, 19:41 Orogogus
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 22, 2017, 13:49:
Clinton got a pass because it was 20 years ago, and the people angry now weren't in position to pay attention back then (because most were young.) Once something comes up, and it almost definitely will, it will be addressed and I'd wager no pass is given.

Maybe, maybe not. I think he'll stay out of the spotlight and we won't hear from him again unless Chelsea runs for office. I didn't bring him up to go over how bad he is or isn't, but as an example of the Democrats not turning on their own for the slightest indiscretion. Franken's the person in question right now, but I can't figure out who else has established the alleged pattern. Democratic superdonor Weinstein, from all accounts, is a monster. Left-leaning Kevin Spacey also seems to be a gross person.

It's not Weiner, is it?
 
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28. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 22, 2017, 13:49 Beamer
 
Orogogus wrote on Nov 22, 2017, 13:41:
Beamer wrote on Nov 22, 2017, 08:37:
Again, who is celebrating Clinton?

I didn't say people were celebrating him, I said the left gave him a pass. Gloria Steinem's infamous 1988 opinion piece was a case in point. In no way did the Democrats turn on Clinton the way that NKD suggested is an endemic problem, and at the same time I think a Republican president boinking interns would have come under fire (while, yes, the Republicans would have ignored or "forgiven" it).

I think people on the left are mad at Franken because his actions were fucking gross. It wasn't just a gropey photo. I don't think it was "trivial" and I don't think it's okay because it was a one-off. It does make it better that he apologized, and that she accepted. I don't think he'll end up resigning or being forced out, especially since Tweeden has said she doesn't want him to, but he probably doesn't get to run for president. There are feminist groups pushing him to resign, but this is a feminist issue. I don't get any kind of feeling that the party is going to ask him to step down. I don't know how much more forgiveness people want out of this, and I don't know what other cases NKD is referring to.

Redmask said celebrated, not you.

Clinton got a pass because it was 20 years ago, and the people angry now weren't in position to pay attention back then (because most were young.) Once something comes up, and it almost definitely will, it will be addressed and I'd wager no pass is given.
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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27. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 22, 2017, 13:41 Orogogus
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 22, 2017, 08:37:
Again, who is celebrating Clinton?

I didn't say people were celebrating him, I said the left gave him a pass. Gloria Steinem's infamous 1988 opinion piece was a case in point. In no way did the Democrats turn on Clinton the way that NKD suggested is an endemic problem, and at the same time I think a Republican president boinking interns would have come under fire (while, yes, the Republicans would have ignored or "forgiven" it).

I think people on the left are mad at Franken because his actions were fucking gross. It wasn't just a gropey photo. I don't think it was "trivial" and I don't think it's okay because it was a one-off. It does make it better that he apologized, and that she accepted. I don't think he'll end up resigning or being forced out, especially since Tweeden has said she doesn't want him to, but he probably doesn't get to run for president. There are feminist groups pushing him to resign, but this is a feminist issue. I don't get any kind of feeling that the party is going to ask him to step down. I don't know how much more forgiveness people want out of this, and I don't know what other cases NKD is referring to.
 
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26. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 22, 2017, 08:37 Beamer
 
Redmask wrote on Nov 22, 2017, 07:53:
Yeah, we're the best! Let's celebrate our shared politics and keep posting until our hypocrisy is hidden way down on the list!!!!!!! WOOOOOO

Again, who is celebrating Clinton?
Most people you are rallying against outside this board likely don't even remember Clinton, as they were single digit aged for his presidency.
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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25. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 22, 2017, 07:53 Redmask
 
Yeah, we're the best! Let's celebrate our shared politics and keep posting until our hypocrisy is hidden way down on the list!!!!!!! WOOOOOO  
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24. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 22, 2017, 03:15 jdreyer
 
RedEye9 wrote on Nov 21, 2017, 17:33:
Orange Disgusto Defends Roy Moore
He had to, donny likes em young, including his own daughter. sad

https://www.clowncrack.com/2017/11/14/open-door-policy/

When Trump perved on his on daughter, that was a serious WTF moment.
 
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23. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 21, 2017, 20:04 RedEye9
 

The barrier of entry into the US Senate is less than an Alabama Mall.
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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22. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 21, 2017, 17:33 RedEye9
 
Orange Disgusto Defends Roy Moore
He had to, donny likes em young, including his own daughter. sad

https://www.clowncrack.com/2017/11/14/open-door-policy/
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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21. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 21, 2017, 16:43 RedEye9
 
jdreyer wrote on Nov 21, 2017, 14:14:
Also, I'd define "wildly inappropriate use of power" as what Nixon did.
And what tRumpf does on a daily basis.
 
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20. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 21, 2017, 14:14 jdreyer
 
NKD wrote on Nov 21, 2017, 03:40:
Orogogus wrote on Nov 21, 2017, 03:08:
I don't really agree. I feel like Bill Clinton got a giant pass from the left for wildly inappropriate use of power. And JFK. And I think the people blowing off the first Franken accusation as trivial are full of it.

Bill Clinton scandal was 20 years ago at this point, way before social media, and nearly before the web entirely. Before the SJW purity checking came into play. And JFK was pre-Internet. Hell, pre-everyone-talking-about-politics. It was actually considered kind of rude to talk politics with people you didn't know back then.

Most of these people weren't even self-aware back when Clinton's scandals were going on, and only know about the Clintons from conservative conspiracy theories that read like a bad House of Cards fanfic.

The other difference is that, despite the power differential, Clinton and JFK's trysts were consensual. It's the non-consensual stuff that we're dealing with currently.

Also, I'd define "wildly inappropriate use of power" as what Nixon did.
 
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19. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 21, 2017, 08:49 Beamer
 
Who's celebrating Clinton? Pretty much everywhere I see he's considered a creep, and he was far less involved in Hillary's campaigning due to it.

That said, what he was impeached for was infinitely less creepy than what's being discussed with these other men. Though there are other accusations, and while his closet has been searched many times and quite thoroughly, it was by different standards from today and I would be shocked if more didn't come out.

By and large, though, he's getting even less of a pass than George HW, who is accused of far less and, despite accusations, is largely being ignored as gramps being gramps. I'd even say rightfully.
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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18. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 21, 2017, 07:34 Redmask
 
RedEye9 wrote on Nov 21, 2017, 07:10:
Orogogus wrote on Nov 21, 2017, 03:08:
I don't really agree. I feel like Bill Clinton got a giant pass from the left for wildly inappropriate use of power. And JFK. And I think the people blowing off the first Franken accusation as trivial are full of it.
Bill Clinton got a pass, maybe you missed the impeachment.
Be careful, your partisan is showing.

He's not partisan, he's probably the most carefully objective poster here. He actually forms his own opinions rather than getting spoonfed them from facebook like you. He's right, Clinton got a pass from the left because rather than being ostracized he's celebrated. Sure people can blame time but the history is all there for anyone to read and the truth is that we just don't want to. He leveraged his position into BJs in the fucking oval office, there is no point in even attempting to debate it.

The Democrats have to shun anyone who misbehaves, no matter how it hurts them politically, or else their base will riot

That's why the Democrats can't win politically in these situations, absolutist positions are losing positions.
 
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17. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 21, 2017, 07:10 RedEye9
 
Orogogus wrote on Nov 21, 2017, 03:08:
I don't really agree. I feel like Bill Clinton got a giant pass from the left for wildly inappropriate use of power. And JFK. And I think the people blowing off the first Franken accusation as trivial are full of it.
Bill Clinton got a pass, maybe you missed the impeachment.
Be careful, your partisan is showing.
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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16. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 21, 2017, 03:40 NKD
 
Orogogus wrote on Nov 21, 2017, 03:08:
I don't really agree. I feel like Bill Clinton got a giant pass from the left for wildly inappropriate use of power. And JFK. And I think the people blowing off the first Franken accusation as trivial are full of it.

Bill Clinton scandal was 20 years ago at this point, way before social media, and nearly before the web entirely. Before the SJW purity checking came into play. And JFK was pre-Internet. Hell, pre-everyone-talking-about-politics. It was actually considered kind of rude to talk politics with people you didn't know back then.

Most of these people weren't even self-aware back when Clinton's scandals were going on, and only know about the Clintons from conservative conspiracy theories that read like a bad House of Cards fanfic.
 
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15. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 21, 2017, 03:08 Orogogus
 
NKD wrote on Nov 20, 2017, 22:15:
I saw a comment on reddit (from some Trump supporter I think) that described the moral problem with the political parties something like this:

The Republicans have a Moral Hypocrisy problem, where they preach "family values", but do nothing to uphold them and will in fact overlook any misdeed if it means someone with an (R) next to their name gets in office.

The Democrats have a Moral Hypochondria problem, where they see horrific unforgiveable sins around every corner, and will not hesitate to throw one of their own to the wolves over some relatively trivial shit. All this so they can overcompensate and make a huge point of not tolerating the shit that the Republicans do, instead of just being reasonable.

This seems pretty spot-on to me. And I think it gets worse all the time. The left gets more eager to throw people under the bus when the right gets more eager to give people a free pass. It's like the worse the Republicans get, the worse the Democrats get to compensate.

Morally, the Democrat position is more defensible, but it's the politically losing position and isn't sustainable. The Democrats have to shun anyone who misbehaves, no matter how it hurts them politically, or else their base will riot. But the Republicans don't have to do the same.

I don't really agree. I feel like Bill Clinton got a giant pass from the left for wildly inappropriate use of power. And JFK. And I think the people blowing off the first Franken accusation as trivial are full of it. If it were a conservative male comedian like Tim Allen who 1) forced a kiss despite expressed discomfort, 2) used tongue, 3) drew devil horns on her autographed pictures, and 4) made a grope photo while she was asleep, then people would call it proof positive that he disrespects women and it would be brought up all the time. (D) - trying to be funny; (R) - bully and a lech. The usual forgive your friends schtick.

It's well and good to crow about the right not upholding family values, but women's rights are an actual thing on the left. Trading that in to jump on the moral hypocrisy bandwagon doesn't sound great. Who else do you think is getting railroaded undeservedly? Weinstein? Spacey?
 
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14. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 21, 2017, 02:39 Retired
 
NKD wrote on Nov 20, 2017, 22:15:
I saw a comment on reddit (from some Trump supporter I think) that described the moral problem with the political parties something like this:

The Republicans have a Moral Hypocrisy problem, where they preach "family values", but do nothing to uphold them and will in fact overlook any misdeed if it means someone with an (R) next to their name gets in office.

The Democrats have a Moral Hypochondria problem, where they see horrific unforgiveable sins around every corner, and will not hesitate to throw one of their own to the wolves over some relatively trivial shit. All this so they can overcompensate and make a huge point of not tolerating the shit that the Republicans do, instead of just being reasonable.

This seems pretty spot-on to me. And I think it gets worse all the time. The left gets more eager to throw people under the bus when the right gets more eager to give people a free pass. It's like the worse the Republicans get, the worse the Democrats get to compensate.

Morally, the Democrat position is more defensible, but it's the politically losing position and isn't sustainable. The Democrats have to shun anyone who misbehaves, no matter how it hurts them politically, or else their base will riot. But the Republicans don't have to do the same.

It is a bigger issue that a lot of them believe they aren't doing anything wrong. Period. This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many many many of them that are corrupt as all get out - and when more comes out - people will be appalled. Those of us that don't bury our heads in the sand will say "I told you".

How is it these law makers with no real income can live in mansions? And 5-6 properties at that?

They are way out of touch with reality and "real life" which is why most of the laws seem so F-d up to the normal human being. (well that and they are all written by special interest groups and lobbyists with fat bags of money as payment to the lawmaker)

Anyway....I digress.....time for term limits and time to clean house on both sides of the table. maybe *GASP* get rid of the 2 party system!
 
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13. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 20, 2017, 22:15 NKD
 
I saw a comment on reddit (from some Trump supporter I think) that described the moral problem with the political parties something like this:

The Republicans have a Moral Hypocrisy problem, where they preach "family values", but do nothing to uphold them and will in fact overlook any misdeed if it means someone with an (R) next to their name gets in office.

The Democrats have a Moral Hypochondria problem, where they see horrific unforgiveable sins around every corner, and will not hesitate to throw one of their own to the wolves over some relatively trivial shit. All this so they can overcompensate and make a huge point of not tolerating the shit that the Republicans do, instead of just being reasonable.

This seems pretty spot-on to me. And I think it gets worse all the time. The left gets more eager to throw people under the bus when the right gets more eager to give people a free pass. It's like the worse the Republicans get, the worse the Democrats get to compensate.

Morally, the Democrat position is more defensible, but it's the politically losing position and isn't sustainable. The Democrats have to shun anyone who misbehaves, no matter how it hurts them politically, or else their base will riot. But the Republicans don't have to do the same.
 
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12. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 20, 2017, 21:34 Retired
 
jdreyer wrote on Nov 20, 2017, 18:26:
Slick wrote on Nov 20, 2017, 15:17:
The Franken news is saddening. But what's honestly worse is that the left seems incapable of forgiving. Franken has done truly great work in his 12 years in the Senate. People fuck up. They should be shamed for a bit, but if they're sincere and it's obvious that they're not a bad person, I don't think forgiveness should be that hard to come by.

I mean the first incident (only one that seems legit at the moment), he was on a USO tour taking a dumb picture trying to get a rise out of some soldiers. We all know people in uniform (men and women) can have a crass sense of humour, they're living in extreme conditions, it's not the most PC place in the world. He was trying to play to his audience and misjudged. The picture shows him mockingly groping, not actually groping. People who actually grope don't usually pose for pictures during the act...

It's true that on the scale of things, what he did doesn't approach DJT, CT, or Roy Moore. If Diaper Dave Vitter didn't resign over his scandal, it's hard to make the case for Franken to resign.

Seems that the level of wrongdoing is drawn by what party one is in. Sad all around.

Anyone on any level that is found to have done anything should be immediately terminated/fired/step down/resign.

Not sure what local politics are other places, but MN is taking a beating at the state House and Senate level with reports of wrong doing.
 
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11. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 20, 2017, 18:26 jdreyer
 
Slick wrote on Nov 20, 2017, 15:17:
The Franken news is saddening. But what's honestly worse is that the left seems incapable of forgiving. Franken has done truly great work in his 12 years in the Senate. People fuck up. They should be shamed for a bit, but if they're sincere and it's obvious that they're not a bad person, I don't think forgiveness should be that hard to come by.

I mean the first incident (only one that seems legit at the moment), he was on a USO tour taking a dumb picture trying to get a rise out of some soldiers. We all know people in uniform (men and women) can have a crass sense of humour, they're living in extreme conditions, it's not the most PC place in the world. He was trying to play to his audience and misjudged. The picture shows him mockingly groping, not actually groping. People who actually grope don't usually pose for pictures during the act...

It's true that on the scale of things, what he did doesn't approach DJT, CT, or Roy Moore. If Diaper Dave Vitter didn't resign over his scandal, it's hard to make the case for Franken to resign.
 
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10. Re: Morning Metaverse Nov 20, 2017, 17:25 Cutter
 
Slick wrote on Nov 20, 2017, 15:17:
The Franken news is saddening. But what's honestly worse is that the left seems incapable of forgiving. Franken has done truly great work in his 12 years in the Senate. People fuck up. They should be shamed for a bit, but if they're sincere and it's obvious that they're not a bad person, I don't think forgiveness should be that hard to come by.

I mean the first incident (only one that seems legit at the moment), he was on a USO tour taking a dumb picture trying to get a rise out of some soldiers. We all know people in uniform (men and women) can have a crass sense of humour, they're living in extreme conditions, it's not the most PC place in the world. He was trying to play to his audience and misjudged. The picture shows him mockingly groping, not actually groping. People who actually grope don't usually pose for pictures during the act...

That's still not as bad as the right who are quite willing to forgive child molesters...so long as they're republicans.
 
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You've got to be cruel to be kind...in the right measure.
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