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Evening Legal Briefs

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19 Replies. 1 pages. Viewing page 1.
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19. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 8, 2017, 07:24 Beamer
 
wtf_man wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 23:02:
Pick on my phone reply all you want... no biggie.

We have 4 foreign developers. 2 are average, 2 are fairly brilliant. Any of them could be replaced with local talent. Just because they’re foreign doesn’t automatically make them “top talent”.

As mentioned, no one is saying being foreign makes them better.

But you've got 4 foreign developers. Great. Good for your little company. Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, and Google combined are probably hiring ~20,000-80,000 employees this year. The US isn't a large enough population to support that with top talent candidates. To make sure all roles are filled with the best and brightest, it needs to look outside the US. Or it needs to lower its hiring bar, which no one wants to do.

Using the above height analogy, imagine you wanted to make a team of the 20,000 tallest people. Would a team of the 20,000 tallest people be taller on average if it was 100% Americans, or if it was nationality agnostic?
 
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18. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 8, 2017, 02:34 Orogogus
 
Beamer is clearly not saying that being foreign automatically makes you top talent. I thought his analogy was pretty easy to understand, but to take it down a notch -- if you want to find the fastest person, or the tallest, you're probably going to find someone faster or taller if you check every single person on the planet instead of just people in Detroit. You're not going to end up with someone slower or shorter, because "every single planet" includes the people in Detroit. So if you want the best, you look everywhere.

You, on the other hand, do seem to be saying that anyone who's top talent has got to be American. Or maybe that "good enough" is equivalent to "top". Is it that you think one worker is basically the same as any other once you've screened out the people who don't show up or steal from the company? Is "prioritizing hiring within your own country" really in the best interests of a company, any more than prioritizing the hiring of cat owners or left-handed people would be? When you talk about prioritizing the hiring of locals, it strongly implies that there are considerations other than hiring the best available candidate, which is where discussion seems to be falling apart.
 
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17. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 23:02 wtf_man
 
Pick on my phone reply all you want... no biggie.

We have 4 foreign developers. 2 are average, 2 are fairly brilliant. Any of them could be replaced with local talent. Just because they’re foreign doesn’t automatically make them “top talent”.
 
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16. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 19:55 RedEye9
 
NKD wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 14:13:
wtf_man wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 12:32:
So, your assumption is that there aren’t best qualified people in our country own country?

Sorry, I don’t buy that.

We couldn't even find a "best qualified person" to be our President. If the law allowed us, we could probably have found someone better qualified just about anywhere. I'm guessing Somalia has a lot of candidates better than the current holder of the office.
Please no, that would stir up the idiot birthers again.
At least get somebody from an American territory like Canada.
 
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15. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 14:13 NKD
 
wtf_man wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 12:32:
So, your assumption is that there aren’t best qualified people in our country own country?

Sorry, I don’t buy that.

We couldn't even find a "best qualified person" to be our President. If the law allowed us, we could probably have found someone better qualified just about anywhere. I'm guessing Somalia has a lot of candidates better than the current holder of the office.
 
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14. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 13:37 RedEye9
 
Orogogus wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 13:06:
wtf_man wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 12:32:
So, your assumption is that there aren’t best qualified people in our country own country?

Man... You can't talk up how great and eminently qualified the homegrown talent is and then mangle the English language like that.
Our talents are the talented bestest. We have the most best talents.
sad
 
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13. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 13:06 Orogogus
 
wtf_man wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 12:32:
So, your assumption is that there aren’t best qualified people in our country own country?

Man... You can't talk up how great and eminently qualified the homegrown talent is and then mangle the English language like that.
 
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12. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 12:44 Beamer
 
wtf_man wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 12:32:
So, your assumption is that there aren’t best qualified people in our country own country?

Sorry, I don’t buy that.

How can you not buy that? It's simple math, isn't it? The wider net you cast, the more qualified people you land upon.

Amazon, Apple, Google, MSFT, etc., are already hiring the best and most qualified Americans. After that, it's either less qualified Americans or more qualified non-Americans. These companies are hiring tens of thousands of people per year. It's not that they're hiring one guy, and that one guy happens to be Pakistani. They're hiring tens of thousands, of which the majority are American.

Regardless of how much you love America, you have to admit that some of the best and brightest people in the world aren't American. Think of it like the MLB all-star game, with one fan each picking the teams. The AL fan picks players the best players. The NL fan is a Mets fan who believes the Mets are the best, and just picks all the Mets. Which team do you think would win, the one created with the best players regardless of where they're from, or the one that is the best Mets?
 
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11. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 12:32 wtf_man
 
So, your assumption is that there aren’t best qualified people in our country own country?

Sorry, I don’t buy that.
 
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10. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 11:53 Beamer
 
NKD wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 11:28:
It's funny how some people are all about hiring the best person for the job until it becomes inconvenient. They don't like "diversity hires" or affirmative action, or really any kind of hiring that looks at anything except pure merit and qualifications.

But when hiring the best person for the job often means hiring someone from another country, suddenly it's not fair.

That goes both ways, though, right? We can throw that stone at both sides.

What that typically ignores, though, is that "merit" is subjective and about current needs. If you are a baseball team looking to hire a first basemen and two are available, one that has a lifetime batting average of .300, and one that has it of a .285, the first seems the better candidate. But if he bats righty, and your entire lineup bats righty, and the other guy bats lefty, there's a valid argument that the lefty better fits your current needs.

Much like in corporations. Odds are, for any role, there are at least a dozen candidates that could do the job equally well. But if your team is all white men, there's probably something that someone not a white man could bring that rounds your team a bit better. Some people get irate at that notion, but in the US, people tend to have similar experiences depending on race and gender, and sometimes you want different experiences on your bench.
 
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9. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 11:28 NKD
 
It's funny how some people are all about hiring the best person for the job until it becomes inconvenient. They don't like "diversity hires" or affirmative action, or really any kind of hiring that looks at anything except pure merit and qualifications.

But when hiring the best person for the job often means hiring someone from another country, suddenly it's not fair.
 
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8. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 11:16 Beamer
 
wtf_man wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 11:12:
What is wrong with Nationalism?

We're not talking the twisted term "white nationalists" which infers racism (again)... we're talking regular plain old nationalism.

Wikipedia definition (1st paragraph):

Nationalism is a political, social, and economic system characterized by promoting the interests of a particular nation, particularly with the aim of gaining and maintaining self-governance, or full sovereignty, over the group's homeland. The political ideology therefore holds that a nation should govern itself, free from unwanted outside interference, and is linked to the concept of self-determination. Nationalism is further oriented towards developing and maintaining a national identity based on shared characteristics such as culture, language, race, religion, political goals or a belief in a common ancestry. Nationalism therefore seeks to preserve the nation's culture. It often also involves a sense of pride in the nation's achievements, and is closely linked to the concept of patriotism. In some cases, nationalism referred to the belief that a nation should be able to control the government and all means of production.

I don't see anything wrong with that. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Be proud of your own country and promote from within.

Also, I never said "don't hire foreigners"... I said prioritize hiring your own citizens first, especially for economic reasons.

Economically, you're better off not hiring internally. You're better off hiring the best and brightest so your corporations are stronger and more innovative, and you're better off taking the best and brightest out of other countries and relocating them here.

If a tech company were to prioritize US candidates, it would be detrimental to its own growth.
 
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7. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 11:12 wtf_man
 
What is wrong with Nationalism?

We're not talking the twisted term "white nationalists" which infers racism (again)... we're talking regular plain old nationalism.

Wikipedia definition (1st paragraph):

Nationalism is a political, social, and economic system characterized by promoting the interests of a particular nation, particularly with the aim of gaining and maintaining self-governance, or full sovereignty, over the group's homeland. The political ideology therefore holds that a nation should govern itself, free from unwanted outside interference, and is linked to the concept of self-determination. Nationalism is further oriented towards developing and maintaining a national identity based on shared characteristics such as culture, language, race, religion, political goals or a belief in a common ancestry. Nationalism therefore seeks to preserve the nation's culture. It often also involves a sense of pride in the nation's achievements, and is closely linked to the concept of patriotism. In some cases, nationalism referred to the belief that a nation should be able to control the government and all means of production.

I don't see anything wrong with that. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Be proud of your own country and promote from within.

Also, I never said "don't hire foreigners"... I said prioritize hiring your own citizens first, especially for economic reasons.
 
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6. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 09:57 Beamer
 
As for why corporations hire H1Bs, it's a cycle.

It begins with what your most ambitious and brightest people in the country want. And right now, and for the foreseeable future, that's international experience. The US is a mature market, and regardless of the industry you are in, the growth overseas is significantly higher than the growth in the US. In many industries, the revenue is higher in other countries, too, let alone globally combined. Fortune 500 companies are routinely turning to executives with global experience to lead their countries, so it's become clear that global experience is a key to advancing. So, though, is a good education.

Look at what top schools are doing, then. Top MBA and CS programs are 25%-45% international. Which makes some sense for a lot of reasons. 1, international students typically pay full price, and US students don't. 2, US students want to be in programs with international students because working with people from other countries is a doorway to working in other countries. 3, the talent pool globally is always deeper than locally, so to have the best students you need to look outside your backyard, and these schools need to have the best students to attract the best on campus recruiters. Lastly, it just makes sense for them - if they take the best foreign talent, it leaves less incentive for those foreign countries to develop higher education systems that can adequately compete, as there's no huge demand for them - the talent wants to come get their degrees here.

Then it comes to the company. The number one thing they want is the absolute best talent. If one company decides to only hire from one geographical region, their competitors get an advantage of being able to hire the talent from other regions. They also tend to hire from schools that are heavily foreign, because it's always easier to hire people from a school you know and trust than anywhere else, as that school has spent a fortune vetting that student in a way that recruiters can't afford to do otherwise, so they rely on that stamp of quality. Foreigners tend to bring new ideas, as they come from different cultures and tend to have somewhat different ways of thinking, and also have an advantage of understanding their home country best and, most likely, that's a key market for the company. Lastly, the brightest Americans tend to like working with foreigners for all those reasons - they challenge us to work differently, bring different points of view, and help us understand a different culture we may end up working in down the road.

All of this combines to tech companies needing foreign workers. The home country alone can't kick out enough talent for these jobs. It can't fill the CS programs and the business schools. If a company wants to hire just from a local pool, the quality of talent is worse and the company lowers the bar to get hired. And that talent that now can't be hired in this country instead go to another country and help build new companies there.
 
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5. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 09:44 Beamer
 
wtf_man wrote on Nov 7, 2017, 09:33:
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 22:34:
Cutter wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 21:26:
And MS isn't hiring actual citizens because?

Oh, good, you're setting us up to explain to you that MSFT pays top dollar for top talent, then you'll respond with nationalist and racist bullshit again, pretending for some reason that MSFT does this to underpay people, not get talent.

Broken record. Just ban yourself. You already have most of us on ignore.

I usually stay out of political discussions here, because I don't feel Blues is an appropriate place for this.... but I'm gonna rant.

Please explain, libtards out there, how prioritizing hiring within your own country is racist?
There is plenty of talent in America, and it isn't all white.

I'm really getting sick and tired of any political disagreement going down the "race card" path. It's bull fuckin shit.

Being liberal is one thing, being a complete libtard is another (just as conteratives vs. conservtards aka extremists). Keep drinking that "everything has to do with race / white privilege" kool-aid. All the libtards are doing is pissing off enough people in the center to vote opposite of them by calling everyone a fucking racist.

/rant

It's nationalist. Cutter, however, turned his rant last week into one about the "thugs" in the NFL. I assume that you understand why the term "thug" is racist, no? Regardless, somehow he went from "it's bad to hire foreigners" to "the NFL is full of thugs" in one thought. "Thought." Hence me calling him racist.

Also, seriously, "libtards?"

And, frankly, people that think it's bad to hire foreigners don't understand the market at all. At all. I'll put that into another post.
 
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4. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 09:33 wtf_man
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 22:34:
Cutter wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 21:26:
And MS isn't hiring actual citizens because?

Oh, good, you're setting us up to explain to you that MSFT pays top dollar for top talent, then you'll respond with nationalist and racist bullshit again, pretending for some reason that MSFT does this to underpay people, not get talent.

Broken record. Just ban yourself. You already have most of us on ignore.

I usually stay out of political discussions here, because I don't feel Blues is an appropriate place for this.... but I'm gonna rant.

Please explain, libtards out there, how prioritizing hiring within your own country is racist?
There is plenty of talent in America, and it isn't all white.

I'm really getting sick and tired of any political disagreement going down the "race card" path. It's bull fuckin shit.

Being liberal is one thing, being a complete libtard is another (just as conteratives vs. conservtards aka extremists). Keep drinking that "everything has to do with race / white privilege" kool-aid. All the libtards are doing is pissing off enough people in the center to vote opposite of them by calling everyone a fucking racist.

/rant
 
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3. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 7, 2017, 02:13 jdreyer
 
Beamer wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 22:34:
Cutter wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 21:26:
And MS isn't hiring actual citizens because?

Oh, good, you're setting us up to explain to you that MSFT pays top dollar for top talent, then you'll respond with nationalist and racist bullshit again, pretending for some reason that MSFT does this to underpay people, not get talent.

Broken record. Just ban yourself. You already have most of us on ignore.
Including you, IIRC.
 
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2. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 6, 2017, 22:34 Beamer
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 21:26:
And MS isn't hiring actual citizens because?

Oh, good, you're setting us up to explain to you that MSFT pays top dollar for top talent, then you'll respond with nationalist and racist bullshit again, pretending for some reason that MSFT does this to underpay people, not get talent.

Broken record. Just ban yourself. You already have most of us on ignore.
 
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1. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Nov 6, 2017, 21:26 Cutter
 
And MS isn't hiring actual citizens because?
 
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