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3D Realms Build Game Beta Testing

Facebook Post from 3D Realms seeks testers for a new unannounced project using the Build Engine, the 2.5D engine behind such classics as Duke Nukem 3D, Shadow Warrior, and Blood (thanks DSOGaming). There's no word on which version of MS-DOS this requires:

We're looking for play-testers for the next 3D Realms title. An unannounced game using the classic "Build Engine", used to develop legendary MS-DOS games such as Duke Nukem 3D, Blood, Shadow Warrior etc. A brand new game built by an amazing crew.

Interested? Sign up here!

https://docs.google.com/…/1FAIpQLSfrev9688DzhxT0w…/viewform…

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24 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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24. Re: Morning Tech Bits Nov 6, 2017, 16:10 panbient
 
Flatline wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 11:54:

I remember Unreal editor being a huge step up because it used negative space for it's level design and how quake & doom if you had accidentally left even a minuscule part of your level open to the "outside" you'd crash. Unreal was all "Since you carve space out of an infinite block that doesn't matter any more!" and there was much rejoicing.

For me it was a philosophical difference. I really had to change how I conceptualized and planned out maps when using CSG engines rather than a BSP Tree.

And the easiest way to avoid 'leaking' in a BSP engine was to literally just build a giant block around your map. This was not an efficient solution - but it worked hahaha. It also didn't crash (unless you left a massive leak), what you'd normally get is a hall of mirrors effect across the leaking area (at least with the Quake2 / HL engines).

The biggest thing I remember from Unreal / UT was their scripting language essentially being an extension of BASIC which made it a lot more accessible to people who hadn't studied C/C++ in college. Also that CSG block was not infinite... (found this out the hard way when I decided to try making a race track).
 
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23. Re: 3D Realms Build Game Beta Testing Nov 6, 2017, 12:40 Creston
 
It's Build engine now. In 2020, they'll switch to Unreal Engine 5, then in 2023 they'll switch to Unity 4, and then in 2039 they'll switch to Star Citizen Engine 0.9Alpha.
 
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22. Re: Morning Tech Bits Nov 6, 2017, 12:26 eRe4s3r
 
Flatline wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 11:54:
panbient wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 08:49:
Build / Doom engines were NOT easy to use. Sure it was simple to replace a sprite, but that's about as much of a 'mod' as applying flame stickers to the side of your car and telling yourself it'll move faster. Making a new map in those engines was rough, especially if you found yourself attempting to make legitimate 3d space.

Quake 1,2 (same with Unreal / UT / Lithtech) were the next step and the first really substantive 3d engines available to the public. Still rudimentary but at least you could place player accessible geometry over existing geometry for true 3d.

I remember Unreal editor being a huge step up because it used negative space for it's level design and how quake & doom if you had accidentally left even a minuscule part of your level open to the "outside" you'd crash. Unreal was all "Since you carve space out of an infinite block that doesn't matter any more!" and there was much rejoicing.

Unreal editor was also the first level editor where you had basic "What you see is what you get" abilities which changed everything. And how is making a level in Unity difficult? You make geometry in 3dsmax, drag the file into Unity and it works it literally can not get any easier. Build Engine, you have to literally carve a BSP-Tree that if even 1 tiny vertex isn't aligned just right will throw a leak error and not compile the fucking map. Gods, I have sudden flashbacks to the HL1 level editor.

And god forbid any of your geometry intersecting and peeking with even 1 vertex outside the carved space.... (makes detailing surfaces such fun)
 
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21. Re: Morning Tech Bits Nov 6, 2017, 11:54 Flatline
 
panbient wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 08:49:
Build / Doom engines were NOT easy to use. Sure it was simple to replace a sprite, but that's about as much of a 'mod' as applying flame stickers to the side of your car and telling yourself it'll move faster. Making a new map in those engines was rough, especially if you found yourself attempting to make legitimate 3d space.

Quake 1,2 (same with Unreal / UT / Lithtech) were the next step and the first really substantive 3d engines available to the public. Still rudimentary but at least you could place player accessible geometry over existing geometry for true 3d.

I remember Unreal editor being a huge step up because it used negative space for it's level design and how quake & doom if you had accidentally left even a minuscule part of your level open to the "outside" you'd crash. Unreal was all "Since you carve space out of an infinite block that doesn't matter any more!" and there was much rejoicing.
 
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20. Re: Skyrim Creation Club Launches with Survival Mode Nov 6, 2017, 09:59 YourNick
 
It was pretty awesome when it came out, 6 months before Quake 1, though Quake 1 was the first without the y-shearing hack for pitching and truly fully 3D, like Descent a year prior. Heretic added pitch control, Hexen added jump, then Duke added ducking and what are basically large teleporters (like pools.) Lots of neat effects like mirrors and shrink rays.

GZDoom is a very good Doom engine source port, would be nice if there was a good one for Duke, not sure if EDuke is still being worked on.
 
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19. Re: Skyrim Creation Club Launches with Survival Mode Nov 6, 2017, 09:48 Kajetan
 
YourNick wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 09:40:
The build engine is sort of a hack.
But it was a CLEVER hack

Sadly it never gained the attention of ids source code releases. The Build Engine was superior to Dooms engine and looking at the capabilities of modern Doom ports like GZDoom one can only dream of what might have been possible with Build.
 
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18. Re: Morning Tech Bits Nov 6, 2017, 09:40 YourNick
 
The build engine is sort of a hack. Even with duke nukem 20th anniversary upgraded engine you still can't pitch straight up where the top half of the screen is what's behind you, though you can in Doom source ports such as GZDoom. The rooms on top of rooms is a hack, when you emerge from underwater you're actually teleporting to another room.  
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17. Re: Morning Tech Bits Nov 6, 2017, 09:11 Beamer
 
If you're someone that knows nothing, has no skills, and no talent, creating something in Build or Doom is simple. A level can be learned in an hour.

With new engines, since everything is much more complicated and relies upon skills instead of just being somewhat clever, it is nearly impossible to learn to make something you can call your own that quickly. But once you learn what you make is significantly better and more impressive.

It's also why old games could be made by such small teams. Did you want a couch in your map? Make the geometry and repurpose some texture. Do you want it today? You need another guy to model it, and probably another guy to make a texture. But it'll look infinitely better.
 
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16. Re: Morning Tech Bits Nov 6, 2017, 08:49 panbient
 
SirKnight wrote on Nov 5, 2017, 19:26:
Can't agree with that at all. The old engines are much easier to create things since everything is so much more simple. That's why modding for the classic games was so big and still goes on. Modern games rarely get mods. To create anything that looks good in a modern game/engine requires you to be a VERY talented artist and takes insane amounts of time. This is not true for Build/Doom 1,2/Quake 1,2,3.

You're comparing vastly different things all over the place with this comment. Unless your idea of a great mod is just a basic sprite / SFX audio swap without any actual new content or gameplay systems.

Modern games rarely get mods because most developers don't provide the necessary tools or lock out base systems to build upon. The old games didn't. But you had to be able to teach yourself how to manipulate and create within those environments. It's kind of like how you actually needed to understand how your computer worked just to be able to get certain games to load back in the DOS days (or have you forgotten about batch files to allocate specific memory?)

Making something look good, especially today, has far more to do with graphic fidelity and artistic ability than it does with the ability and access to the underlying framework of the engine.

Build / Doom engines were NOT easy to use. Sure it was simple to replace a sprite, but that's about as much of a 'mod' as applying flame stickers to the side of your car and telling yourself it'll move faster. Making a new map in those engines was rough, especially if you found yourself attempting to make legitimate 3d space.

Quake 1,2 (same with Unreal / UT / Lithtech) were the next step and the first really substantive 3d engines available to the public. Still rudimentary but at least you could place player accessible geometry over existing geometry for true 3d.

Quake 3 with its curved surfaces took that a step farther and started moving the creation of user made content out of their proprietary editors into professional grade 3d modelling tools (3Dmax etc.) I'd go so far as to say Q3 is where the FPS mod scene really started taking a dive due to the fact that the requirements to make passable content moved out of the casual players hands and more to the semi-professional developer.
 
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15. Re: Skyrim Creation Club Launches with Survival Mode Nov 6, 2017, 04:20 Kajetan
 
Tone84 wrote on Nov 6, 2017, 00:33:
I kinda like the idea of going retro, but why not at least use a true 3D engine - IDTech 2 or Unreal (Will they still license the original unreal engine?)
Because they wanted to use the Build-Engine?
 
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14. Re: Skyrim Creation Club Launches with Survival Mode Nov 6, 2017, 04:19 Kajetan
 
SirKnight wrote on Nov 5, 2017, 19:26:
The old engines are much easier to create things since everything is so much more simple.
Depends on what you want to create.
 
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13. Re: 3D Realms Build Game Beta Testing Nov 6, 2017, 00:33 Tone84
 
I kinda like the idea of going retro, but why not at least use a true 3D engine - IDTech 2 or Unreal (Will they still license the original unreal engine?)  
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12. Re: 3D Realms Build Game Beta Testing Nov 5, 2017, 20:36 jdreyer
 
SirKnight wrote on Nov 5, 2017, 19:24:
Soulburner wrote on Nov 5, 2017, 15:20:
It seems this unannounced project is Ion Maiden: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1404138

That looks freakin awesome.

I like the idea of using old engines for new games. The old engines had a gameplay-feel and look that I still love and prefer over modern stuff for the most part. Honestly, I personally am getting sick of all of these realistic graphics and ultra high detailed everything (plus they take up so much space and kill modding). I actually prefer the way games looked and played in the 90s and earlier. My favorite game type is 2D and for 3D I prefer the more simple stuff. Like for me, if I want realistic, I'll just look out of a window or go outside. This is why I am totally fine with the Switch not being able to do the kind of graphics a PS4/Xbone can do. Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey look MORE than good enough for me.

Totally agree. I'm addicted to Darkest Dungeon right now, something that runs on a 5 year old laptop.

I'll want good graphics for VR though.
 
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11. Re: Morning Tech Bits Nov 5, 2017, 19:26 SirKnight
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Nov 5, 2017, 16:52:
The build engine is such a pain in the ass to create stuff with compared to modern engines..

Can't agree with that at all. The old engines are much easier to create things since everything is so much more simple. That's why modding for the classic games was so big and still goes on. Modern games rarely get mods. To create anything that looks good in a modern game/engine requires you to be a VERY talented artist and takes insane amounts of time. This is not true for Build/Doom 1,2/Quake 1,2,3.
 
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10. Re: 3D Realms Build Game Beta Testing Nov 5, 2017, 19:24 SirKnight
 
Soulburner wrote on Nov 5, 2017, 15:20:
It seems this unannounced project is Ion Maiden: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1404138

That looks freakin awesome.

I like the idea of using old engines for new games. The old engines had a gameplay-feel and look that I still love and prefer over modern stuff for the most part. Honestly, I personally am getting sick of all of these realistic graphics and ultra high detailed everything (plus they take up so much space and kill modding). I actually prefer the way games looked and played in the 90s and earlier. My favorite game type is 2D and for 3D I prefer the more simple stuff. Like for me, if I want realistic, I'll just look out of a window or go outside. This is why I am totally fine with the Switch not being able to do the kind of graphics a PS4/Xbone can do. Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey look MORE than good enough for me.
 
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9. Re: 3D Realms Build Game Beta Testing Nov 5, 2017, 17:27 jdreyer
 
SlimRam wrote on Nov 5, 2017, 15:12:
Not trying to be too cynical but... why bother?

Unless they are giving away the game why do anything with the Build engine?

I might guess a few things:

1. No license fees.

2. Engine knowledge and toolsets

3. Retro gaming is trending
 
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8. Re: Morning Tech Bits Nov 5, 2017, 16:52 Mordecai Walfish
 
The build engine is such a pain in the ass to create stuff with compared to modern engines.. it really is questionable that they are recruiting people for this. Maybe for nostalgia's sake they're trying to create some grand finale' send-off to the build engine?  
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7. Re: 3D Realms Build Game Beta Testing Nov 5, 2017, 15:20 Soulburner
 
It seems other "retro" kind of games running on Unity or any other modern engine seem kind of... well, "off".

Running on an actually retro engine adds a lot to the experience. Also, the DOS comment is a joke. It will use the most recent incarnation of the Build engine, which was used in the Anniversary edition. Runs perfectly fine on Windows.

It seems this unannounced project is Ion Maiden: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1404138
 
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6. Re: 3D Realms Build Game Beta Testing Nov 5, 2017, 15:12 SlimRam
 
Not trying to be too cynical but... why bother?

Unless they are giving away the game why do anything with the Build engine?
 
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5. Re: 3D Realms Build Game Beta Testing Nov 5, 2017, 15:11 Acleacius
 
They found a loop hole to make another Duke game?  
Stop. Lose all scripted responses. Improvisation only.
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24 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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