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Morning Metaverse

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18. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 22, 2017, 08:56 Verno
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 21, 2017, 12:59:

They should invest in infrastructure that makes their city an attractive place to locate. They shouldn't give away the farm.

Yes that's nice and generic but companies want TAX INCENTIVES in addition to bike lanes and subways. If you want to attract Amazon you give them tax incentives or someone else will. It doesn't matter anyway because they're not giving away the farm, the tax incentive is a drop in the bucket compared to the economic benefits of landing a fucking 50k worker Amazon operation. That's long term capital asset investments, not easily shifted to another country and Amazon is a company poised to topple several different industries.
 
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17. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 22, 2017, 03:04 Red886
 
you want to shift 50k workers? go build your own hostels ( like what any mega factory, or even university would do) . but every city is grovelling for mega-tech that any sensible requirement goes out the window.
 
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16. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 21, 2017, 12:59 jdreyer
 
Verno wrote on Oct 21, 2017, 09:00:
jdreyer wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 19:28:
You're conflating the tax incentive with the economic benefit. For the state government to make back $7B in tax incentives, there needs to be $100B increase in economic activity. How likely is that?

NJ alone contributes something like 3% to the US GDP annually, over 500 billion in one year. I have no problem believing an entity like Amazon will significantly exceed your 100 billion figure, that's why everyone is tripping all over themselves to get this company to land on their door step. Look at what Amazon has done economically for Seattle.

Also, I'll push back against the politicians doing opportunity cost analysis. Some might, while others might only be thinking as far as the next election, damn the long term costs. I'd put Chris Christie in that latter category. The dude is a dick.

So replace his name with a Democrat and reconsider the matter. Politicians have people advising them on stuff like this and really, so what if its also good PR? It's going to be a massive increase to a regional and state economy.

But please if this is such a bad idea, how else should cities and states seek to attract corporate entities? More bike lanes?

They should invest in infrastructure that makes their city an attractive place to locate. They shouldn't give away the farm.
 
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15. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 21, 2017, 10:59 Beamer
 
Jonjonz wrote on Oct 21, 2017, 07:56:
Why all the hot air about a few more McJobs. Amazon is known for being even worse of an employer than Wallmart, utilizing all kinds of ways to exploit their workforce.

It is amazing what a few beach or mountain dachas handed out to the city council members and key public administration officials will do.


Very ignorant post. Amazon is shitty to its blue collar labor, yes. Many companies are. But it treats its white collar labor like gods.

It isn't a few McJobs, it's 50,000 six figure jobs. That's a lot of money being pumped into an economy. Most of those jobs, nearly all, will come from outside, so it's 50,000 new people. And most will be young and single, so 50,000 people with enormous amounts of disposable income that, between taxes, rent, and instagrammable food, will be putting somewhere around $100,000 back into the economy each.
 
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14. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 21, 2017, 09:00 Verno
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 19:28:
You're conflating the tax incentive with the economic benefit. For the state government to make back $7B in tax incentives, there needs to be $100B increase in economic activity. How likely is that?

NJ alone contributes something like 3% to the US GDP annually, over 500 billion in one year. I have no problem believing an entity like Amazon will significantly exceed your 100 billion figure, that's why everyone is tripping all over themselves to get this company to land on their door step. Look at what Amazon has done economically for Seattle.

Also, I'll push back against the politicians doing opportunity cost analysis. Some might, while others might only be thinking as far as the next election, damn the long term costs. I'd put Chris Christie in that latter category. The dude is a dick.

So replace his name with a Democrat and reconsider the matter. Politicians have people advising them on stuff like this and really, so what if its also good PR? It's going to be a massive increase to a regional and state economy.

But please if this is such a bad idea, how else should cities and states seek to attract corporate entities? More bike lanes?
 
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13. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 21, 2017, 07:56 Jonjonz
 
Why all the hot air about a few more McJobs. Amazon is known for being even worse of an employer than Wallmart, utilizing all kinds of ways to exploit their workforce.

It is amazing what a few beach or mountain dachas handed out to the city council members and key public administration officials will do.

 
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12. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 19:28 jdreyer
 
Verno wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 14:44:
jdreyer wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 14:01:
Yeah, I think I read NJ was vying for the new Amazon HQ by offering $7B in tax credits? How will they ever make that money back? It should be illegal to exempt a single company from taxation for those purposes. You're gutting your ability to improve local infrastructure to support those extra workers.

I disagree. A company like Amazon hiring 10000+ workers in your area is worth a lot more than 7 billion dollars to a local economy in the long term and will attract other companies. States are not pants on head dumb, they have people doing the opportunity cost on these alternatives.

The bigger question with corporations is how you keep them there but its not so easy to pick up and move such a large operations center in this case.

It's tax breaks anyway, politicians love tax breaks because its a line item in their budgets, money they never truly saw. When its coming straight out of your cashflow though then they play hard ball.
You're conflating the tax incentive with the economic benefit. For the state government to make back $7B in tax incentives, there needs to be $100B increase in economic activity. How likely is that?

Also, I'll push back against the politicians doing opportunity cost analysis. Some might, while others might only be thinking as far as the next election, damn the long term costs. I'd put Chris Christie in that latter category. The dude is a dick.
 
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If Star Citizen was a child conceived in a night of passion, it would have started elementary school by now. -panbient
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11. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 16:17 whitelined
 
Verno wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 14:44:
jdreyer wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 14:01:
Yeah, I think I read NJ was vying for the new Amazon HQ by offering $7B in tax credits? How will they ever make that money back? It should be illegal to exempt a single company from taxation for those purposes. You're gutting your ability to improve local infrastructure to support those extra workers.

I disagree. A company like Amazon hiring 10000+ workers in your area is worth a lot more than 7 billion dollars to a local economy in the long term and will attract other companies. States are not pants on head dumb, they have people doing the opportunity cost on these alternatives.

The bigger question with corporations is how you keep them there but its not so easy to pick up and move such a large operations center in this case.

It's tax breaks anyway, politicians love tax breaks because its a line item in their budgets, money they never truly saw. When its coming straight out of your cashflow though then they play hard ball.

It's hard to say outright, tax breaks bad, as you say there are the benefits too. Sometimes it's just good to question is the system working correctly for everyone. I am not against capitalism, I think we wouldn't be posting these messages without it, but I think we should treat it like a machine - machines work for us, but need to be looked after managed once in a while to stop it running away with itself.
 
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10. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 15:59 Beamer
 
The Half Elf wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 15:08:
Being an Amazonian my bet still is on the Cincinnati Area. We just opened the largest ground sort center at CVG. We have a major expansion in development at CVG Airport (and which in turn Amazon will finally buy out DHL), and it puts them pretty central to the rest of the sort centers in the US.

Doubtful. HQ doesn't need to be anywhere near fulfilment, as there's so little interaction between the coders, the business teams, and operations/fulfillment.

Amazon will be perfectly happy having its operations headquarters in the middle of the country without having to figure out how to get 22-34 year olds to move to a place that even the 22-34 year olds from that place tried to escape. If it wants to be near Cincinnati, it will go to Chicago. Over the Rhine has some cool places to offer, but good luck convincing a 28 year old that just graduated from Stanford with an MBA, or MIT with a CompEng degree, to move to Cincinnati.
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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9. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 15:08 The Half Elf
 
Being an Amazonian my bet still is on the Cincinnati Area. We just opened the largest ground sort center at CVG. We have a major expansion in development at CVG Airport (and which in turn Amazon will finally buy out DHL), and it puts them pretty central to the rest of the sort centers in the US.  
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8. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 14:44 Verno
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 14:01:
Yeah, I think I read NJ was vying for the new Amazon HQ by offering $7B in tax credits? How will they ever make that money back? It should be illegal to exempt a single company from taxation for those purposes. You're gutting your ability to improve local infrastructure to support those extra workers.

I disagree. A company like Amazon hiring 10000+ workers in your area is worth a lot more than 7 billion dollars to a local economy in the long term and will attract other companies. States are not pants on head dumb, they have people doing the opportunity cost on these alternatives.

The bigger question with corporations is how you keep them there but its not so easy to pick up and move such a large operations center in this case.

It's tax breaks anyway, politicians love tax breaks because its a line item in their budgets, money they never truly saw. When its coming straight out of your cashflow though then they play hard ball.
 
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7. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 14:30 Beamer
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 13:31:
Yeah, Charlotte is vying to be the choice. Great for my industry; Multifamily housing. My rents will double over 10 years and we will make an even bigger fortune...for the owners and execs in my management company. Not so good for service industry workers or anybody else who doesn't want to pay Uptown prices for an apartment 30 minutes from Uptown. (And Uptown prices? Damn. Already over $1500 for a tiny, tiny studio apartment.)

Yeah, but that studio may come with a balcony overlooking the ballpark, which is kind of fun.

People that actually own property will do really well wherever Amazon goes, but yeah, it's very much the rich getting richer. Restaurants will also do well, but ones not catering to single 22-34 year olds may get completely pushed out. Seriously, Seattle was a great place to be a single 22-34 year old.
 
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http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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6. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 14:19 RedEye9
 
Simon Says wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 13:22:
whitelined wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 12:32:
Yes, amazon really needs tax breaks, effectively subsidising the company, as they are really poor and don't have much money.

See how competition is good for the free market corporate welfare?
Corporations are people too, just with better tax breaks.

Would you rather they gave 3 billion to foxcon?
 
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5. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 14:01 jdreyer
 
whitelined wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 12:32:
Yes, amazon really needs tax breaks, effectively subsidising the company, as they are really poor and don't have much money.

Yeah, I think I read NJ was vying for the new Amazon HQ by offering $7B in tax credits? How will they ever make that money back? It should be illegal to exempt a single company from taxation for those purposes. You're gutting your ability to improve local infrastructure to support those extra workers.
 
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If Star Citizen was a child conceived in a night of passion, it would have started elementary school by now. -panbient
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4. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 13:31 Agent.X7
 
Yeah, Charlotte is vying to be the choice. Great for my industry; Multifamily housing. My rents will double over 10 years and we will make an even bigger fortune...for the owners and execs in my management company. Not so good for service industry workers or anybody else who doesn't want to pay Uptown prices for an apartment 30 minutes from Uptown. (And Uptown prices? Damn. Already over $1500 for a tiny, tiny studio apartment.)  
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3. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 13:22 Simon Says
 
whitelined wrote on Oct 20, 2017, 12:32:
Yes, amazon really needs tax breaks, effectively subsidising the company, as they are really poor and don't have much money.

See how competition is good for the free market corporate welfare?
 
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2. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 12:32 whitelined
 
Yes, amazon really needs tax breaks, effectively subsidising the company, as they are really poor and don't have much money.  
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1. Re: Morning Metaverse Oct 20, 2017, 10:08 Creston
 
That's a great promotion there, AT&T.
 
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