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Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play?

Boss Key's Lawbreakers launched to great reviews, but sold poorly, and the multiplayer first person shooter has suffered with abysmal concurrent player counts ever since. Designer Cliff Bleszinski has discussed efforts to improve on this going forward, which is one of the topics of this interview on GameSpot that's the full version of a conversation they've previously quoted. The game was originally planned to be free-to-play, and many armchair analysts have declared it must change to this model if it is to succeed, so they asked Cliff about this, and got the following reply:

Before launch, you had the big news that switching from free-to-play to a premium product and I think now, some people have been suggesting or stating online, which doesn't necessarily carry any weight, but that the game could be looking to go back to a free to play model. Is that something that's on the table or no?

Which just boggles me, my brain because my ... I've got a decent business sense. Especially when it comes to this industry. It's gotten me fairly far. And under the assumption that games are expensive, 60 dollars is a lot of money. Even 100 dollars for all the special editions that you see coming out. And I was of the belief that $29.99, it's a little bit over ... It's pretty much an impulse buy. And did it help? Did it hurt? Should it have gone free? Maybe. Would we consider experimenting with that in the future? I wouldn't remove it from the table. But, I just ... I don't want to get down into sleazy free to play, as much as I want to keep this game afloat and with our, like I said, our fledgling community, I don't want to get into Candy Crush type-tactics 'cause I just won't be able to sleep at night and I don't sleep well to begin with.

But yeah, I wouldn't rule it out in the future, especially if we consider rolling the game out ... Well, we're considering in the future, rolling the game out in Asia. It's one of those things that you almost have to do that in Asia, so we'll be considering doing that, maybe one of those things if we do it there, would it make sense to roll it back out to the states? Possibly. But, I don't want to start doing gun rentals any time soon in game.

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30 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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30. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 15, 2017, 23:05 Kxmode
 
Anyone remember the name of the 32nd trading card game to come out? No? That's because most didn't play it to remember it. Lawbreakers is a victim of timing in a market oversaturated of FPS MOBA derivatives. Nothing can save it from its inevitable fate. Not even CliffyB's borderline delusional drivel.  
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William Shakespeare's "Star Wars" Act I, Scene 4: CHORUS: And now, dear viewers, shall our play go to \ A Planet stark and drear for our next scene. \ Imagine sand and rocks within thy view. \ Prepare thy souls - we fly to Tatooine!
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29. Re: Morning Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 21:15 RedEye9
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Oct 15, 2017, 17:07:
Engine issues for all of em are documented in internet forums. Sorry your system can't handle UE4. Without anything more specific it's hard to separate hyperbole from tangible "massive issues" like you claim. I personally haven't seen anything "massive in all titles that use the engine".
You tried logic, it didn't work. But A for effort.
It's not hard to believe that the most popular game engine that is powering a lot of games would have the misfortune of being used by computer illiterates on low end laptops. And those same nitwits complain to no-end in forums everywhere.
Without seeing someones systems specs and the "quality settings" they use in games, no one can believe any forum comment and trying to get a valid statistical point is a waste of time.
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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28. Re: Morning Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 17:07 Mordecai Walfish
 
Engine issues for all of em are documented in internet forums. Sorry your system can't handle UE4. Without anything more specific it's hard to separate hyperbole from tangible "massive issues" like you claim. I personally haven't seen anything "massive in all titles that use the engine".  
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"No, let me clarify - if you don't watch it, I'll be wearing your ass for a shoe."
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27. Re: Morning Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 16:50 Muscular Beaver
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Oct 15, 2017, 12:17:
Muscular Beaver wrote on Oct 15, 2017, 05:57:
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Oct 15, 2017, 03:11:
WaltC wrote on Oct 14, 2017, 23:10:
the U4 Engine might amount to something besides a lukewarm tech demo and low-budget game engine--who knows?

What planet are you living on?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_4

Huge AAA titles are using that engine, along with the most successful multiplayer game ever released on Steam (PUBG)..

I don't know how this equates to a "lukewarm tech demo and low-budget game engine".

Japanese developers who mainly did all of their engine work in-house historically have adopted it like no other. Pretty much all the AAA fighting games coming from there are using it. Square Enix is making the next Kingdom Hearts game with it, and the Final Fantasy 7 remake. Shenmue 3 will be using it.

It is a highly flexible and beautiful looking engine, and tech demos for new graphics technologies frequently use this engine to showcase what is in store for future generation GPU technology.

Examples:

UE4 using VXGI rendering techniques:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQSzmngTbtw

Photo-realistic rendering in UE4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTb7k9pCQTo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXouFfqSfxg

Now that I think about it.. I think we've had this conversation before. It is beyond crazy to describe UE4 this way, but it would seem you do not understand at all what it is.

Well, hes kinda right. More games than not, have huge issues optimizing UE4 or getting as good graphics out of it as in demos. Even PUBG struggles still.
All UE4 games I have played in the past 2 years have had massive performance issues.
As for being low budget... since when do AAA developers (publishers) not try to save money?

Please name a 3d engine that is as flexible and large-scale as epic's that does *not* have performance issues in games. Cryengine? Unity? Frostbite? Crystal Tools? Source/2? Creation/whatever the fuck Bethesda calls it now? Bungie's engine? RAGE? (Both rockstar's and id's.. carmack is an engine God and still the engine had tremendous issues with certain stuff) They've all got their upsides and downsides, as they are doing a tremendous amount of complicated shit to make sure things are running smoothly. UE4 isn't worse or better than any of them, just has it's low and high points like the rest. Trying something new (pubg, rust, star citizen, etc..) with an engine that you have not specifically created to tackle the rendering and gameplay pipeline that you are laying, can lead to massive performance issues. It's just the nature of the beast. That you are able to craft these (and many other) gameplay experiences at all from engines that were not specifically created to jump the hurdles you are putting in place for them, is a testament to the flexibility of these modern engines, but there will most certainly be performance issues still on some level. Blizzard makes their own engines in-house for this very reason, and specialises them for each game. Not every dev has Blizzard money though, and even blizz has performance issues with their shit.

Tell me which engines don't have issues? If literally "all ue4 games in the past 2 years" have had " massive performance issues" for you, I'd start to wonder if you're having local issues or only playing the more ambitious fringe games that push it to the limit. Games like everspace Tekken 7, and many others using ue4 have run perfectly on my system since day 1.

Its just a fact. Engines on other games dont have issues like those.
And no, its not my system, if its documented everywhere on forums.
But nice try.
 
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Waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
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26. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 15, 2017, 12:35 wtf_man
 
born2expire wrote on Oct 14, 2017, 20:22:
CliffyB and his HUGE ego just needs to fuck off and disappear

That goes for several others that are washed up... Peter Molyneux, Richard Garriot, John Romero, D.W. Bradley, George Brussard, Randy Pitchford, Derek Smart, etc. etc.

Fortunately most of those folks are pretty silent now... however, that's a good example of over -egotistical game developers.
 
Avatar 19499
 
"Did you even read cutters post or are you just suffering from rectal cranial inversion." - RedEye9
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25. Re: Morning Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 12:17 Mordecai Walfish
 
Muscular Beaver wrote on Oct 15, 2017, 05:57:
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Oct 15, 2017, 03:11:
WaltC wrote on Oct 14, 2017, 23:10:
the U4 Engine might amount to something besides a lukewarm tech demo and low-budget game engine--who knows?

What planet are you living on?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_4

Huge AAA titles are using that engine, along with the most successful multiplayer game ever released on Steam (PUBG)..

I don't know how this equates to a "lukewarm tech demo and low-budget game engine".

Japanese developers who mainly did all of their engine work in-house historically have adopted it like no other. Pretty much all the AAA fighting games coming from there are using it. Square Enix is making the next Kingdom Hearts game with it, and the Final Fantasy 7 remake. Shenmue 3 will be using it.

It is a highly flexible and beautiful looking engine, and tech demos for new graphics technologies frequently use this engine to showcase what is in store for future generation GPU technology.

Examples:

UE4 using VXGI rendering techniques:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQSzmngTbtw

Photo-realistic rendering in UE4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTb7k9pCQTo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXouFfqSfxg

Now that I think about it.. I think we've had this conversation before. It is beyond crazy to describe UE4 this way, but it would seem you do not understand at all what it is.

Well, hes kinda right. More games than not, have huge issues optimizing UE4 or getting as good graphics out of it as in demos. Even PUBG struggles still.
All UE4 games I have played in the past 2 years have had massive performance issues.
As for being low budget... since when do AAA developers (publishers) not try to save money?

Please name a 3d engine that is as flexible and large-scale as epic's that does *not* have performance issues in games. Cryengine? Unity? Frostbite? Crystal Tools? Source/2? Creation/whatever the fuck Bethesda calls it now? Bungie's engine? RAGE? (Both rockstar's and id's.. carmack is an engine God and still the engine had tremendous issues with certain stuff) They've all got their upsides and downsides, as they are doing a tremendous amount of complicated shit to make sure things are running smoothly. UE4 isn't worse or better than any of them, just has it's low and high points like the rest. Trying something new (pubg, rust, star citizen, etc..) with an engine that you have not specifically created to tackle the rendering and gameplay pipeline that you are laying, can lead to massive performance issues. It's just the nature of the beast. That you are able to craft these (and many other) gameplay experiences at all from engines that were not specifically created to jump the hurdles you are putting in place for them, is a testament to the flexibility of these modern engines, but there will most certainly be performance issues still on some level. Blizzard makes their own engines in-house for this very reason, and specialises them for each game. Not every dev has Blizzard money though, and even blizz has performance issues with their shit.

Tell me which engines don't have issues? If literally "all ue4 games in the past 2 years" have had " massive performance issues" for you, I'd start to wonder if you're having local issues or only playing the more ambitious fringe games that push it to the limit. Games like everspace Tekken 7, and many others using ue4 have run perfectly on my system since day 1.
 
Avatar 56178
 
         
"No, let me clarify - if you don't watch it, I'll be wearing your ass for a shoe."
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24. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 15, 2017, 11:40 HorrorScope
 
The things that keep me up at night.  
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23. Re: Morning Mobilization Oct 15, 2017, 08:34 Tom
 
10 concurrent players? OUCH.

It's going to take more than F2P to save this thing.
 
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22. Re: Morning Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 05:57 Muscular Beaver
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Oct 15, 2017, 03:11:
WaltC wrote on Oct 14, 2017, 23:10:
the U4 Engine might amount to something besides a lukewarm tech demo and low-budget game engine--who knows?

What planet are you living on?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_4

Huge AAA titles are using that engine, along with the most successful multiplayer game ever released on Steam (PUBG)..

I don't know how this equates to a "lukewarm tech demo and low-budget game engine".

Japanese developers who mainly did all of their engine work in-house historically have adopted it like no other. Pretty much all the AAA fighting games coming from there are using it. Square Enix is making the next Kingdom Hearts game with it, and the Final Fantasy 7 remake. Shenmue 3 will be using it.

It is a highly flexible and beautiful looking engine, and tech demos for new graphics technologies frequently use this engine to showcase what is in store for future generation GPU technology.

Examples:

UE4 using VXGI rendering techniques:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQSzmngTbtw

Photo-realistic rendering in UE4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTb7k9pCQTo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXouFfqSfxg

Now that I think about it.. I think we've had this conversation before. It is beyond crazy to describe UE4 this way, but it would seem you do not understand at all what it is.

Well, hes kinda right. More games than not, have huge issues optimizing UE4 or getting as good graphics out of it as in demos. Even PUBG struggles still.
All UE4 games I have played in the past 2 years have had massive performance issues.
As for being low budget... since when do AAA developers (publishers) not try to save money?
 
Avatar 12928
 
Waiting for BIS to come back to their senses and do a real ArmA 2 successor.
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21. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 15, 2017, 03:43 RaZ0r!
 
So yeah, it's going F2P.  
Avatar 8127
 
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20. Re: Morning Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 03:11 Mordecai Walfish
 
WaltC wrote on Oct 14, 2017, 23:10:
the U4 Engine might amount to something besides a lukewarm tech demo and low-budget game engine--who knows?

What planet are you living on?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_4

Huge AAA titles are using that engine, along with the most successful multiplayer game ever released on Steam (PUBG)..

I don't know how this equates to a "lukewarm tech demo and low-budget game engine".

Japanese developers who mainly did all of their engine work in-house historically have adopted it like no other. Pretty much all the AAA fighting games coming from there are using it. Square Enix is making the next Kingdom Hearts game with it, and the Final Fantasy 7 remake. Shenmue 3 will be using it.

It is a highly flexible and beautiful looking engine, and tech demos for new graphics technologies frequently use this engine to showcase what is in store for future generation GPU technology.

Examples:

UE4 using VXGI rendering techniques:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQSzmngTbtw

Photo-realistic rendering in UE4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTb7k9pCQTo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXouFfqSfxg

Now that I think about it.. I think we've had this conversation before. It is beyond crazy to describe UE4 this way, but it would seem you do not understand at all what it is.
 
Avatar 56178
 
         
"No, let me clarify - if you don't watch it, I'll be wearing your ass for a shoe."
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19. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 15, 2017, 02:25 El Pit
 
The multiplayer fps market is as saturated as the MOBA is. All kids go with the biggest game(s), all the others are left in the dust.
How about some great single-player fps, though? Too much work? There has always been a market for those, and except for Wolfenstein II coming up I can't think of any other REAL single-player game (i.e. not a multiplayer game with a tacked-on 3 hrs single-player campaign) being released in the near future.
 
They're waiting for you, Gabe, in the test chamber!
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18. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 14, 2017, 23:10 WaltC
 
Don't much care what takes Cliffy B. off the stage for good, but I've always been somewhat sad (if that's the word) for Epic ever since the company started going so wrong so many years ago...

If you've got to give away a game to get people to play...it's just possible that not even pushing it as a freebie will help its really poor numbers... Epic with Cliffy B. bet the farm on consoles and lost--consoles are now low-end PCs and PCs are everything. Of course, a few tens-of-millions of us never forgot that--but Epic certainly did. Unreal on the PC put Epic on the map--it's just ironic to see the PC taking both Epic and Cliffy B. off the map, too, finally. Although, in other, more capable hands, the U4 Engine might amount to something besides a lukewarm tech demo and low-budget game engine--who knows?

Sweeney got off to such a great start with Unreal & Return to Nali. Classics--I still have 'em and crank 'em up every now and then for a nostalgic look at Epic's unrealized potential of those days. Ah, what could have been had Sweeney been capable of better judgment at the time!

I still remember reading what I thought at the time was one of Sweeney's most insightful quotes, when he said, paraphrased, "Eighty-ninety percent of the market is single-player, and I don't see that changing anytime soon." Of course, multiplayer is more popular today than it was then, but the thrust of that early Sweeney quote was spot on and still is. Wasn't long after that, though, before he'd dropped the PC as a development platform and even a target platform and started slummin' where there was simply less competition all the way around--a much less demanding hardware market--the consoles.

Then he came out with his hare-brained notion that in 20 years (just about now give or take a couple of years) CPUs and GPUs would merge into one giant multipurpose monster CGPU or GCPU--whichever...;), similar to the monstrous all-purpose, multi-device fad of the late 80's. Sweeney theorized that the death of the CPU and GPU as separate paradigms of design and manufacture was inexorable. For some reason he did not foresee what happened--the simple evolution and continuation of GPUs and CPUs on entirely separate but complementary design and development production tracks! Why he couldn't see the obvious has always puzzled me, but Sweeney couldn't. I was personally very disappointed with Epic's absolute and staggering lack of imagination and its chase after the quick buck with no thought of tomorrow, apparently. Now "tomorrow" is here and Epic's about a decade behind the curve, imo.

That's it--no more wasted nostalgia. OK, enough pining over yesteryear....;) Ugh!
 
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It is well known that I do not make mistakes--so if you should happen across a mistake in anything I have written, be assured that I did not write it!
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17. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 14, 2017, 20:22 born2expire
 
CliffyB and his HUGE ego just needs to fuck off and disappear  
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16. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 14, 2017, 19:27 Mordecai Walfish
 
Literally more people are playing gems like Natural Selection 2 (which just updated to a 64-bit client, woo hoo!) and Pirates, Vikings and Knights II, than this.. and you know why? Because they're better games. Lawbreakers sucked balls. Incomplete edgelord rubbish from a washed up Dev. I tried it when it was free recently. Tried all the maps and modes and a couple characters and it's really just dull and generic even compared to decade-old games in the same genre. F2P ain't even gonna save this one unless a bunch of things change in the core experience.  
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"No, let me clarify - if you don't watch it, I'll be wearing your ass for a shoe."
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15. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 14, 2017, 19:25 NKD
 
I got a friend who is a manager at a Burger King, maybe I should have Cliffry B give him a call. Sounds like he'll be looking for a burger flipping job soon.  
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You are being watched.
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14. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 14, 2017, 19:05 RedEye9
 
Lorcin wrote on Oct 14, 2017, 17:41:
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/59508/lawbreakers-drops-10-concurrent-players-day/index.html
Now that's a tight knit community.
 
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https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report
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13. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 14, 2017, 18:37 PacoTaco
 
I was under the impression that Nexon bought this title because they wanted to use it in net cafes and they had a plan for that.

If you just list the products Law Donkey has to fight through to get player count it is a very hard fight and the game brings nothing to the fight.

The competition isn't just limited to FPS's it is all the games that people are willing to spend time on or even watch.

Right now as of this message one stream has 141 viewers 2 other are live with a total of 12 viewers, nobody cares, it will get a slight pop if it went free but capturing players is a rough road and they missed the window. They needed to design the game to take more risk and do something that nobody else offers. Oh this stream with 132 viewers is a Dreamhack Tournament maybe after it is over the viewer count will even drop lower.

PubG
OverWatch
Battlefield
COD
League of Legends
DOTA2
CS:GO
Rocket League
Fortnight
HeartStone


 
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12. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 14, 2017, 18:01 Creston
 
Lorcin wrote on Oct 14, 2017, 17:41:
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/59508/lawbreakers-drops-10-concurrent-players-day/index.html

Heh. Keep pushing, cliffy. I'm sure it'll turn around any day now...

 
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11. Re: Will Lawbreakers Go Free-to-Play? Oct 14, 2017, 17:41 Lorcin
 
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/59508/lawbreakers-drops-10-concurrent-players-day/index.html  
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