Send News. Want a reply? Read this. More in the FAQ.   News Forum - All Forums - Mobile - PDA - RSS Headlines  RSS Headlines   Twitter  Twitter
Customize
User Settings
Styles:
LAN Parties
Upcoming one-time events:
Chicago, IL, USA, IL 01/27
Chicago, IL USA, IL 10/19

Regularly scheduled events

Saturday Tech Bits

View
8 Replies. 1 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 ] Older >

8. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 20:06 Beamer
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Oct 15, 2017, 09:22:
jdreyer wrote on Oct 14, 2017, 16:51:
Or be allowed to hire H1-Bs out the ass at half salary.

I strongly doubt either Apple or Google do that. They surely both hire H1-Bs but not at half salary. Unlike Disney, or Bell Edison, or any of the other myriad companies that have famously axed their technical staff in favor of H1-B-based outsourcing firms, both Apple and Google view engineering as major profit centers, not cost centers. Likewise, both companies have an essentially infinite talent pool to draw on -- every software engineer on the planet would like to work there -- and the more they invest in engineering the more money they earn. In other words, their incentive structure is to find the best engineers on the planet, and then pay them lavishly to get them to join and to stay and to make the company money. Anecdotally, two of the engineers on my team have Chinese passports, and while I don't know their immigration status (H1-B vs. greencard) I can say for certain that they both make substantially more money than I do.

The H1-Bs at my old company made as much as I did for their level and experience. This was in MBA positions, not engineering, but still a lot of H1-Bs. As you said, for a wider talent pool, not a cheaper one.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
7. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 17:27 Scottish Martial Arts
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 15, 2017, 14:56:
My experience with MS has revealed it to be the case. Former H1-Bs applied to positions at my company and I was part of the hiring team. We've also worked with MS tech workers on projects, many of whom were H1-B holders. And we've been told MS has hundreds and hundreds of H1-Bs working for them.

However, I don't know about Google and Apple specifically. So maybe they're different. Just a couple of questions:

1. Can everyone at Apple and Google be superstars? Don't they need a certain number of mid-level grunts to do the tedious work?

2. Given that both Apple and Google colluded to reduce salaries, why wouldn't they use H1-B status of even excellent engineers to push salaries down? Or is your contention that the very best can name their price regardless of immigration status?

It wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft has hundreds of H1-Bs working for them, but it would surprise me if they specifically hire H1-Bs over citizens/permanent residents simply to pay them less than. My experience working in one of these companies suggests H1-Bs are treated just as a means to get work authorization for foreign engineers who do not have a green card, for example a recent graduate who went to an American university and was hired out of school, but whose temporary student work authorization is set to expire. The sort of scenario that is typically conjured by mentioning H1-Bs, i.e. a department getting laid off and replaced with barely competent Indian contractors from an outsourcing firm, simply doesn't exist, or if it does, it is extremely well hidden.

1. Not everyone at Google or Apple is a super star, but everyone is a top performer for where they are in their career. A mid-level or senior engineer will surely out perform a new grad, but compared to other new computer science/engineering graduates in their cohort, the Apple or Google hire will be a far stronger performer than the, for example, Equifax hire.

2. They colluded to prevent poaching of talent. I don't mean to defend what they did, but coming to an (illegal) agreement to prevent key engineers from being headhunted to another firm is distinct from agreeing to suppress salaries. The effect on individual engineers largely manifests in lost opportunities to jump around for pay raises, but the emails that were revealed in court made it explicit that Jobs, Schmidt, Zuckerberg, Whitman, et al. were agreeing not to poach, headhunt, or otherwise hire away their engineering talent. Don't get me wrong, I in no way think these companies are altruistic, but I do think their incentives, as I understand them, lead them to prize engineering talent and to either compete strongly to secure it -- as in the case of offering generous salaries -- or in this case to engage in anticompetitive behavior to secure it.

At any rate, my contention is that these companies view engineering as the source of profitability, and not as an operating cost to be minimized by any means necessary. Likewise, they have the name brand value, generous salary, perks, and prestige to ensure that they have an essentially infinite candidate pool. Accordingly, they have very tough hiring standards that filter out the vast majority of candidates but retain those that will be most productive, which in turn means that in order to meet hiring targets they recruit globally and continuously. Consequently, they view immigration status not as something to exploit to reduce costs, but as an obstacle to be worked around for engineers who have made it through the hiring gauntlet. For some that will mean getting an H1-B or winning the green card lottery; for others it will mean transferring to an office in a country where they have work authorization. But as far as I can tell, it does not mean hiring foreigners to undercut domestic salaries.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
6. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 14:56 jdreyer
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Oct 15, 2017, 09:22:
jdreyer wrote on Oct 14, 2017, 16:51:
Or be allowed to hire H1-Bs out the ass at half salary.

I strongly doubt either Apple or Google do that. They surely both hire H1-Bs but not at half salary. Unlike Disney, or Bell Edison, or any of the other myriad companies that have famously axed their technical staff in favor of H1-B-based outsourcing firms, both Apple and Google view engineering as major profit centers, not cost centers. Likewise, both companies have an essentially infinite talent pool to draw on -- every software engineer on the planet would like to work there -- and the more they invest in engineering the more money they earn. In other words, their incentive structure is to find the best engineers on the planet, and then pay them lavishly to get them to join and to stay and to make the company money. Anecdotally, two of the engineers on my team have Chinese passports, and while I don't know their immigration status (H1-B vs. greencard) I can say for certain that they both make substantially more money than I do.

My experience with MS has revealed it to be the case. Former H1-Bs applied to positions at my company and I was part of the hiring team. We've also worked with MS tech workers on projects, many of whom were H1-B holders. And we've been told MS has hundreds and hundreds of H1-Bs working for them.

However, I don't know about Google and Apple specifically. So maybe they're different. Just a couple of questions:

1. Can everyone at Apple and Google be superstars? Don't they need a certain number of mid-level grunts to do the tedious work?

2. Given that both Apple and Google colluded to reduce salaries, why wouldn't they use H1-B status of even excellent engineers to push salaries down? Or is your contention that the very best can name their price regardless of immigration status?
 
Avatar 22024
 
Stay a while, and listen.
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
5. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 09:22 Scottish Martial Arts
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 14, 2017, 16:51:
Or be allowed to hire H1-Bs out the ass at half salary.

I strongly doubt either Apple or Google do that. They surely both hire H1-Bs but not at half salary. Unlike Disney, or Bell Edison, or any of the other myriad companies that have famously axed their technical staff in favor of H1-B-based outsourcing firms, both Apple and Google view engineering as major profit centers, not cost centers. Likewise, both companies have an essentially infinite talent pool to draw on -- every software engineer on the planet would like to work there -- and the more they invest in engineering the more money they earn. In other words, their incentive structure is to find the best engineers on the planet, and then pay them lavishly to get them to join and to stay and to make the company money. Anecdotally, two of the engineers on my team have Chinese passports, and while I don't know their immigration status (H1-B vs. greencard) I can say for certain that they both make substantially more money than I do.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
4. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Oct 15, 2017, 03:07 NKD
 
Tesla seems like a brutal place to work.  
Avatar 43041
 
You are being watched.
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
3. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Oct 14, 2017, 19:33 YourNick
 
Lots of these tech companies flocking to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Docks#Corporate_tax_incentive to minimize their tax payments, along with many other tax evading strategies.

Maybe due to the current administration's planned crackdown on hiring cheaper foreign labor via H1B visas they decided to help train more US workers.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
2. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Oct 14, 2017, 16:51 jdreyer
 
We'd also be better off if Google, Apple, etc. didn't collude to suppress salaries. Or be allowed to offshore. Or be allowed to hire H1-Bs out the ass at half salary.  
Avatar 22024
 
Stay a while, and listen.
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
1. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Oct 14, 2017, 14:56 Cutter
 
We'd all be better off if the Googles and Apples of the world just paid their fucking fair share of taxes. This is just a publicity stunt for a tax write-off. The vast majority of people aren't suited to code or work in tech. And as the AI/robotics continue to increase you'll need less and less people working in tech/IT anyway, so only people that are exceptionally good at it will be employed.
 
Avatar 25394
 
You've got to be cruel to be kind...in the right measure.
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
8 Replies. 1 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 ] Older >


footer

Blue's News logo