I still don't see how having 1 guy in a group of 8 being a minority is racist.

There can't be a such thing as colorblind in today's society. It's a nice goal, but doing so today isn't feasible.

Eirikrautha wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 20:01:
That's what you are asserting when you limit your hiring to black applicants based on your logic. If you are looking for bigotry, I'm sure there's a mirror nearby...

You know what they say about the thin line that separates the far left and far right. Actually I think it was an old poli-sci study about how half of the people who identified as left wing actually exhibited racism. I forget the details, I should look it up sometime again. Seems very relevant these days.

This comment was edited on Oct 16, 2017, 09:34.

Redmask wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 20:49:

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 19:31:
What's conflicting? His post doesn't spell it out, and his posting history is full of white panic. The fact remains that being black in America leads to drastically different experiences. Is that right? No. Is it true? Yes. And if your company needs the perspective of black people, being all white won't help. Period.

I said we would pretend, don't push your luck. Your comments here were disturbing, you don't even seem to grasp your own internal racism. Hire a black man, they know how to relate to all those other black men! No black person would've allowed this commercial to happen.

It is no wonder you constantly lash out at others for their beliefs when you can't even seem to make peace with your own. Period, end of sentence the fact of the matter at the end day. Yes that's the wave off you deserve. Thanks for the laughs.

What can't I make peace with? I gave one example, trying to simplify it, but you guys seem really creeped out. You really don't think there are reasons why having one black person in a group of 8 white people can be more advantageous than having another white person?

Taking a step back, what makes a good board member? Is there a limited quantity of them? Even for something as prestigious as a board member of Facebook, no, it's not difficult to find someone qualified that will do a good job and wants the job. So what are you looking for out of them? In this case, someone that users and employees relate to.

I don't think it's Stormfrontish at all to say black employees and black people relate more to black people than white people. Nor do I think it is to say that being black in America is a unique thing, as society treats all black people differently than white people, so black people understand other black people better than white people understand black people. Did I use the word "all" there? No.

This isn't internalized racism, this is just what society is. White society treats black people differently. This isn't controversial. And people concerned when a company commits to diversity are usually people stupid enough to think there's one candidate clearly better than any other, as if such a thing exists and as if people are always hiring for the same thing. You're not stupid, which is why you coming so hard on the side of "protect the white people or you're racist" is so weird. You get that the other guy and Cutter are agreeing with you, right? That's a bad sign.

Eirikrautha wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 20:01:

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 19:31:

Redmask wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 18:56:

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 16:31:

There are times that race matters. Being "color blind" is as bad as being racist, as it just enforces the status quo. Yeah, I know, you're saying I'm as bad as the racists and I'm saying you're as bad as the racists and it comes across as me echoing you, but I've seen your posting history here and, honestly, I'm pretty certain you prefer white people, so I'm done even talking to you and your horrible, unrealistic ideas that probably often strike you as "real" due to it being "race realism." At the very least you feel white people are the most persecuted in America and have it the hardest.

Sure why actually confront your own conflicting statements when you can vaguely dismiss him. We'll just all pretend you weren't a massive hypocrite.

What's conflicting? His post doesn't spell it out, and his posting history is full of white panic. The fact remains that being black in America leads to drastically different experiences. Is that right? No. Is it true? Yes. And if your company needs the perspective of black people, being all white won't help. Period.

Ironic ad hominem (a sure sign of defeat), coming from someone whose posting history is full of collectivist racialism. Dodge all you want, the only difference between your ideas and Stormfront is that they admit they are being racist. Your fart-sniffing airs of noblesse oblige just mask your internal certainty that the poor POCs out there need your protection. See how easy it is to assign motives to those you disagree with (the difference is that mine almost certainly hits closer to the mark)?

If you want to pursue cultural and/or experiencial diversity, then I'm all for it. When you simplistically (and racistly) assert that such diversity is simply a matter of skin color, then you have gone beyond the pale. Asians can't experience poverty? Hispanics can't experience urban blight and discrimination? White people can't know what it's like to be visible minorities? That's what you are asserting when you limit your hiring to black applicants based on your logic. If you are looking for bigotry, I'm sure there's a mirror nearby...

Y'know, LittleMe also said an adhom is a sure sign of defeat, but it isn't. It's a sure sign I have no interest in dealing with people like you, him, and MA. You three are more or less the same. You're all super right wing and not worth talking to.

Eirikrautha and Redmask...Lemme see your shoe's. Cause I have never seen anyone put their foot that far up a guy's ass. Damnnnn

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 19:31:
What's conflicting? His post doesn't spell it out, and his posting history is full of white panic. The fact remains that being black in America leads to drastically different experiences. Is that right? No. Is it true? Yes. And if your company needs the perspective of black people, being all white won't help. Period.

I said we would pretend, don't push your luck. Your comments here were disturbing, you don't even seem to grasp your own internal racism. Hire a black man, they know how to relate to all those other black men! No black person would've allowed this commercial to happen.

It is no wonder you constantly lash out at others for their beliefs when you can't even seem to make peace with your own. Period, end of sentence the fact of the matter at the end day. Yes that's the wave off you deserve. Thanks for the laughs.

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 19:31:

Redmask wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 18:56:

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 16:31:

There are times that race matters. Being "color blind" is as bad as being racist, as it just enforces the status quo. Yeah, I know, you're saying I'm as bad as the racists and I'm saying you're as bad as the racists and it comes across as me echoing you, but I've seen your posting history here and, honestly, I'm pretty certain you prefer white people, so I'm done even talking to you and your horrible, unrealistic ideas that probably often strike you as "real" due to it being "race realism." At the very least you feel white people are the most persecuted in America and have it the hardest.

Sure why actually confront your own conflicting statements when you can vaguely dismiss him. We'll just all pretend you weren't a massive hypocrite.

What's conflicting? His post doesn't spell it out, and his posting history is full of white panic. The fact remains that being black in America leads to drastically different experiences. Is that right? No. Is it true? Yes. And if your company needs the perspective of black people, being all white won't help. Period.

Ironic ad hominem (a sure sign of defeat), coming from someone whose posting history is full of collectivist racialism. Dodge all you want, the only difference between your ideas and Stormfront is that they admit they are being racist. Your fart-sniffing airs of noblesse oblige just mask your internal certainty that the poor POCs out there need your protection. See how easy it is to assign motives to those you disagree with (the difference is that mine almost certainly hits closer to the mark)?

If you want to pursue cultural and/or experiencial diversity, then I'm all for it. When you simplistically (and racistly) assert that such diversity is simply a matter of skin color, then you have gone beyond the pale. Asians can't experience poverty? Hispanics can't experience urban blight and discrimination? White people can't know what it's like to be visible minorities? That's what you are asserting when you limit your hiring to black applicants based on your logic. If you are looking for bigotry, I'm sure there's a mirror nearby...

Redmask wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 18:56:

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 16:31:

There are times that race matters. Being "color blind" is as bad as being racist, as it just enforces the status quo. Yeah, I know, you're saying I'm as bad as the racists and I'm saying you're as bad as the racists and it comes across as me echoing you, but I've seen your posting history here and, honestly, I'm pretty certain you prefer white people, so I'm done even talking to you and your horrible, unrealistic ideas that probably often strike you as "real" due to it being "race realism." At the very least you feel white people are the most persecuted in America and have it the hardest.

Sure why actually confront your own conflicting statements when you can vaguely dismiss him. We'll just all pretend you weren't a massive hypocrite.

What's conflicting? His post doesn't spell it out, and his posting history is full of white panic. The fact remains that being black in America leads to drastically different experiences. Is that right? No. Is it true? Yes. And if your company needs the perspective of black people, being all white won't help. Period.

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 16:31:

There are times that race matters. Being "color blind" is as bad as being racist, as it just enforces the status quo. Yeah, I know, you're saying I'm as bad as the racists and I'm saying you're as bad as the racists and it comes across as me echoing you, but I've seen your posting history here and, honestly, I'm pretty certain you prefer white people, so I'm done even talking to you and your horrible, unrealistic ideas that probably often strike you as "real" due to it being "race realism." At the very least you feel white people are the most persecuted in America and have it the hardest.

Sure why actually confront your own conflicting statements when you can vaguely dismiss him. We'll just all pretend you weren't a massive hypocrite.

Creston wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 12:02:

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 11:41:
I'm suggesting there is in experiences, shared culture, and taste.
Do you think you could create a marketing plan that would appeal to urban youths without offending them as well as, y'know, someone with that background?

Whaaaaaaa? Shit son, I'm hip with that lingo, yo! Fresh to the beat n'shit! Urban Youth is en fleek and so am I!

*puts pants on backwards* WordUP!








CanIHazJobPlease?

brooooooo... if you were famous and shared that publicly you would be roasted alive by the internet public O.o

keep up the good work XD

Cutter wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 17:38:

jdreyer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 14:36:

Timmeh wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 10:54:
yeah I see your point, but they have a diverse clientele.

a normal black professional would be a wise addition.

Good point. Here's what can happen when you don't have blacks working in leadership at your corporation:

A Dove ad showed a black woman turning herself white. The backlash is growing.

That has nothing to do with the racial or gender makeup of your company and everything to do with just being scummy for a buck. It's Unilever. You know, the same assholes that own the Axe brand whose ads do nothing but show females as stupid sluts. You hire who's best qualified for the job and who your most comfortable with. And most people are only really comfortable with their own kind. The hardcore lefies out there can wail and wring their hands over the unfairness of it all but that's basic human nature in a nutshell. We are tribal by nature. And anything that isn't part of our tribe is a potential threat. That's 2 million years of evolution telling you it doesn't give a shit about these sorts of politics.

Race Realism Lite.

Everyone has a perspective on life that is shaped by their experiences. Look at the leaders of our country here in the US for a good example of what happens when you have people in charge who don't have any of the experiences of the people they are supposed to work for. Another good example is to look at the media and advertising of a culture that is largely insular and made up of a single race, i.e. Japan. Any time they try to do anything that engages some other culture, it ends up being incredibly tone deaf and often hillariously racist.

Unfortunately, the color of your skin, where you grew up, etc. can have a big impact on your life. But that perspective is just as valuable, if not more so, than the perspective of someone who hasn't faced those particular challenges.

There's a limit to being able to put yourself in someone elses shoes. A variety of perspectives is important in many areas of life, particularly customer-facing businesses.

jdreyer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 14:36:

Timmeh wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 10:54:
yeah I see your point, but they have a diverse clientele.

a normal black professional would be a wise addition.

Good point. Here's what can happen when you don't have blacks working in leadership at your corporation:

A Dove ad showed a black woman turning herself white. The backlash is growing.

That has nothing to do with the racial or gender makeup of your company and everything to do with just being scummy for a buck. It's Unilever. You know, the same assholes that own the Axe brand whose ads do nothing but show females as stupid sluts. You hire who's best qualified for the job and who your most comfortable with. And most people are only really comfortable with their own kind. The hardcore lefies out there can wail and wring their hands over the unfairness of it all but that's basic human nature in a nutshell. We are tribal by nature. And anything that isn't part of our tribe is a potential threat. That's 2 million years of evolution telling you it doesn't give a shit about these sorts of politics.

Eirikrautha wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 15:55:

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 15:31:
Yes, in general, being black makes you more likely to know how to appeal to black people and more likely to appeal to black people.

Beamer:

"So you see, folks, your skin color defines you. It determines your culture, your tastes, your interests, and your ability to communicate and empathize. No white person could ever understand a black person's concerns. No black person could ever truly be the same as a white person."

Reading your mental gymnastics is like watching a confused medium channel a Klan member. It's not just stupid, it borders on evil.

Either we are individuals, or we aren't. Either our differences are due (partly or wholly) to our race, or they aren't. If race is just the color of our skin, then culture and social influences explain our differences, and, consequentially, we can ALL understand each other, because our differences are the product of experience, not kind. That's where I stand.

Your statements above would be agreed with by any racial supremacist out there. It posits that racial divisions are uncrossable and unbridgeable, because they are the product of race itself. Otherwise color wouldn't matter, just lived experience. That's a pernicious idea, and one you should not be comfortable holding...

I love the black and white "either we're this or we're that."

There are times that race matters. Being "color blind" is as bad as being racist, as it just enforces the status quo. Yeah, I know, you're saying I'm as bad as the racists and I'm saying you're as bad as the racists and it comes across as me echoing you, but I've seen your posting history here and, honestly, I'm pretty certain you prefer white people, so I'm done even talking to you and your horrible, unrealistic ideas that probably often strike you as "real" due to it being "race realism." At the very least you feel white people are the most persecuted in America and have it the hardest.

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 15:31:
Yes, in general, being black makes you more likely to know how to appeal to black people and more likely to appeal to black people.

Beamer:

"So you see, folks, your skin color defines you. It determines your culture, your tastes, your interests, and your ability to communicate and empathize. No white person could ever understand a black person's concerns. No black person could ever truly be the same as a white person."

Reading your mental gymnastics is like watching a confused medium channel a Klan member. It's not just stupid, it borders on evil.

Either we are individuals, or we aren't. Either our differences are due (partly or wholly) to our race, or they aren't. If race is just the color of our skin, then culture and social influences explain our differences, and, consequentially, we can ALL understand each other, because our differences are the product of experience, not kind. That's where I stand.

Your statements above would be agreed with by any racial supremacist out there. It posits that racial divisions are uncrossable and unbridgeable, because they are the product of race itself. Otherwise color wouldn't matter, just lived experience. That's a pernicious idea, and one you should not be comfortable holding...

Red wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 15:25:

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 11:41:
I'm suggesting there is in experiences, shared culture, and taste.
Do you think you could create a marketing plan that would appeal to urban youths without offending them as well as, y'know, someone with that background?

So being black qualifies some one to make a marketing plan aimed at urban youths? Because all black people started out there? We’re talking about a board member here, the whitest people on Earth regardless of actual skin color. I won’t deny that, on the surface, hiring a black person would likely resonate better with some audience members. But I do hope they make a deeper effort than that to truly find someone that helps diversity. Because seeking some rich dude/tte that is conveniently black isn’t trying very hard. That’s just appeasing idiots with a token role.

Yes, in general, being black makes you more likely to know how to appeal to black people and more likely to appeal to black people.

It's so weird how that works.

Stop with the tokenism. You come across as really frightened some black guy will get a job over you because he's black. The odds are infinitely higher that you got a job over some black guy because you're white.

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 11:41:
I'm suggesting there is in experiences, shared culture, and taste.
Do you think you could create a marketing plan that would appeal to urban youths without offending them as well as, y'know, someone with that background?

So being black qualifies some one to make a marketing plan aimed at urban youths? Because all black people started out there? We’re talking about a board member here, the whitest people on Earth regardless of actual skin color. I won’t deny that, on the surface, hiring a black person would likely resonate better with some audience members. But I do hope they make a deeper effort than that to truly find someone that helps diversity. Because seeking some rich dude/tte that is conveniently black isn’t trying very hard. That’s just appeasing idiots with a token role.

Beamer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 15:03:

Verno wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 14:45:

jdreyer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 14:36:
Good point. Here's what can happen when you don't have blacks working in leadership at your corporation:

A Dove ad showed a black woman turning herself white. The backlash is growing.

The full advertisement, not the snippets that were cropped, is clearly meant to indicate that the Dove brand is inclusive. It shows three distinct ethnic backgrounds and a transition between them. The message is pretty clear "It doesnt matter what your skin color is", use our stupid fucking beauty product. Of course the media is only replaying a snippet of it to incense people.

There is nothing at all harmful about it, the message is fine. It is simply an ad made for a world that doesn't exist anymore, where people weren't always looking for something to be offended about. You actually don't need a black member on your board to see this kind of problem coming, you need common sense, something often sorely lacking in the corporate world. To further that point, the black model in the ad says it was fine and well intended, on the other hand I'm a corporate world white dude and that thing rings my alarm bells because I know the world is ridiculously PC and can't handle nuance at all.

If people want to pillory Dove for something, they should really start with preying on female body image issues, not having a dumb ad. All of Doves ads are awful for fucks sake.

Back to the topic at hand, I've spent most of my life in the corporate world and gender/ethnic quotas rarely serve anyone well in my experience. Our HR people say that creating a more inclusive hiring environment through incentives and targeted events is much more effective, whatever the fuck that means.

The media is focusing on the image Dove posted to Twitter, which did not have the context of the whole ad. Dove did it to themselves, and blaming the media seems to be absolving them of something dumb. Again, Dove didn't link people to the full ad, and didn't post the full ad, they posted what the media is showing, and that's what bothered people.

As for all their ads being awful and focusing on body issues, Dove is actually well acknowledged to be the beauty brand that bucks that trend, with its Real Beauty campaigns, amongst others.

Not sure you pay attention as much as your forceful opinion implies.

I am angry because I don't understand why other people are angry even though the company realized what they did wrong and have already changed their position and admitted that they "missed the mark". Should I still be angry about the other people who where correct to be angry in the first place. Or should i just stick my head in the sand and fail to see my shortcomings.
So angry and confused.

Verno wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 14:45:

jdreyer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 14:36:
Good point. Here's what can happen when you don't have blacks working in leadership at your corporation:

A Dove ad showed a black woman turning herself white. The backlash is growing.

The full advertisement, not the snippets that were cropped, is clearly meant to indicate that the Dove brand is inclusive. It shows three distinct ethnic backgrounds and a transition between them. The message is pretty clear "It doesnt matter what your skin color is", use our stupid fucking beauty product. Of course the media is only replaying a snippet of it to incense people.

There is nothing at all harmful about it, the message is fine. It is simply an ad made for a world that doesn't exist anymore, where people weren't always looking for something to be offended about. You actually don't need a black member on your board to see this kind of problem coming, you need common sense, something often sorely lacking in the corporate world. To further that point, the black model in the ad says it was fine and well intended, on the other hand I'm a corporate world white dude and that thing rings my alarm bells because I know the world is ridiculously PC and can't handle nuance at all.

If people want to pillory Dove for something, they should really start with preying on female body image issues, not having a dumb ad. All of Doves ads are awful for fucks sake.

Back to the topic at hand, I've spent most of my life in the corporate world and gender/ethnic quotas rarely serve anyone well in my experience. Our HR people say that creating a more inclusive hiring environment through incentives and targeted events is much more effective, whatever the fuck that means.

The media is focusing on the image Dove posted to Twitter, which did not have the context of the whole ad. Dove did it to themselves, and blaming the media seems to be absolving them of something dumb. Again, Dove didn't link people to the full ad, and didn't post the full ad, they posted what the media is showing, and that's what bothered people.

As for all their ads being awful and focusing on body issues, Dove is actually well acknowledged to be the beauty brand that bucks that trend, with its Real Beauty campaigns, amongst others.

Not sure you pay attention as much as your forceful opinion implies.

jdreyer wrote on Oct 13, 2017, 14:36:
Good point. Here's what can happen when you don't have blacks working in leadership at your corporation:

A Dove ad showed a black woman turning herself white. The backlash is growing.

The full advertisement, not the snippets that were cropped, is clearly meant to indicate that the Dove brand is inclusive. It shows three distinct ethnic backgrounds and a transition between them. The message is pretty clear "It doesnt matter what your skin color is", use our stupid fucking beauty product. Of course the media is only replaying a snippet of it to incense people.

There is nothing at all harmful about it, the message is fine. It is simply an ad made for a world that doesn't exist anymore, where people weren't always looking for something to be offended about. You actually don't need a black member on your board to see this kind of problem coming, you need common sense, something often sorely lacking in the corporate world. To further that point, the black model in the ad says it was fine and well intended, on the other hand I'm a corporate world white dude and that thing rings my alarm bells because I know the world is ridiculously PC and can't handle nuance at all.

If people want to pillory Dove for something, they should really start with preying on female body image issues, not having a dumb ad. All of Doves ads are awful for fucks sake.

Back to the topic at hand, I've spent most of my life in the corporate world and gender/ethnic quotas rarely serve anyone well in my experience. Our HR people say that creating a more inclusive hiring environment through incentives and targeted events is much more effective, whatever the fuck that means.