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33. Re: etc. Aug 7, 2017, 15:13 NKD
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 7, 2017, 02:29:
NKD wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 19:45:
I honestly don't give a fuck about these types of microtransactions. In fact, bring it on. If you can milk the idiots dumb enough to buy them instead of milking me, go for it. People flipped a lid about the shit you could buy in Mankind Divided, but lo and behold the game threw that shit at you for free and didn't pressure you at all.

And if they turn a 30 hour game into 100 hour grindfest if you don't buy said microtransactions, are you going to just grind it out?

Depends on what the reward for that time spent is. If it's not worth my time then I won't bother with it and won't feel bad for not having done so.

You could easily flip it around and say people are turning a 100 hour game into a 30 hour one by buying shortcuts. It just depends on the ratio of time invested to reward gained, or fun to be had.

So far I've purchased precisely zero things from any in-game shop, in any game that wasn't an MMO. And I've never felt at all like I was missing out because of it. So, if some weak-willed schmucks want to pay these companies so that I don't have to, so be it.
 
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32. Re: etc. Aug 7, 2017, 12:23 Kxmode
 

Paying a sub for an MMO is quaint.
 
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31. Re: etc. Aug 7, 2017, 11:56 HorrorScope
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 7, 2017, 02:29:
And if they turn a 30 hour game into 100 hour grindfest if you don't buy said microtransactions, are you going to just grind it out?


Is that happening?

As for the industry, the big boys are reporting record earnings, so everything good there. Base prices drop faster than ever, but there are optional micro/dlc charges now to make that up. I don't think I've ever bought a micro for a single player and dlc is based on value to me. Their costs, do they still go up for the same volume of content produced? It would be nice that salaries go up, but headcount should be stable or lessening. as the tools are better than ever. They should be able to do more with less, which is the sign of a well run maturing industry.

I won't buy this game immediately, so I'll get to see if the microtrans are really a bad thing or a gamer option. If it is bad, yeah that would be upsetting, but only to the point of move on and play something else, their loss to me.
 
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30. Re: etc. Aug 7, 2017, 10:09 LurkerLito
 
Microtransations. They just officially lost a formerly guaranteed purchase from me. I am going with the "better to nip this in the bud" type sentiment and just boycott all games with microtransactions. The last thing I want is to even remotely support the crap that has ruined many a game on the Android platform. Better all companies that do that shit just go out of business as fast as possible.

Yeah Borderlands 2 had it and I bought it. It didn't affect the game either but it did do one thing extra, it made me skip Borderlands the PreSequel.

Funny thing is the infinite money hack will be available within an hour of release on PC lol. Good luck to them, but I am hoping the game tanks completely. Probably the only way I get it is if it happens to show up on a humble monthly bundle.
 
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29. Re: etc. Aug 7, 2017, 07:54 warmbluelasers
 
I'm only interested if the cash boxes include jpegs of Chris Roberts spaceships.  
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28. Re: etc. Aug 7, 2017, 05:07 jdreyer
 
Jerykk wrote on Aug 7, 2017, 04:47:
jdreyer wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 18:17:
@Rilcon: I'm not sure why you say the market isn't growing. We've seen this industry increase from millions to billions over the past few decades. Also EA, Activision, Tencent, and many others are profitable or very profitable companies.

The problem we're complaining about here is that now full price games are adopting the monetization techniques of free to play. We hate it when a game diverges from its primary purpose of providing entertainment to become a cash sucking machine. If done unobtrusively like BL2, you hardly notice. But if intrudes into the core gameplay, then it's a huge problem for a game that people paid full price for.

There's a big difference between adding microtransactions and adopting a mobile monetization scheme. F2P mobile games are gated so that you are forced to spend money if you want to progress or compete with other players. That's how games like Candy Crush or Clash of Clans make so much money. I seriously doubt that will be the case in Shadow of War. It's a mainstream AAA game so it's going to be easy by default and you will definitely be able to complete all of its content without grinding or paying for microtransactions.
One would hope. I guess we'll see. For-pay gaming has been adopting free-to-play mechanisms wholesale the past couple of years. As I said, BL2 did it right. It was completely unnecessary. But that's not guaranteed. I paid full price for Grid 2, yet all the coolest cars were there from day one for sale as microtransaction DLC. I couldn't even grind to unlock them.

Make no mistake, the primary purpose of professional game development isn't to provide entertainment. Like any other business, the goal is to make as much money as possible.
It's funny, when devs focus exclusively on providing entertainment value instead of creating a money generating mechanism, they not only do just fine, but make boatloads of cash to boot. Witness: FTL, Rogue Legacy, Rimworld, Minecraft, Stardew Valley, Plants v Zombies, Terraria, Bastion, Darkest Dungeon, Papers Please, Broforce, Hyperlight Drifter, Hotline Miami, Trine, etc. etc.

The trick is doing so in a way that doesn't make customers feel like they're being exploited. Ideally, that means making a quality game that people enjoy and are therefore willing to pay for.
Which is very difficult to pull off. Gamers can tell when there's Borax cut in with their cocaine. That's why EA won "worst company in the world" two years running.

However, it's possible to do that AND have completely optional microtransactions that don't have any significant impact on the overall experience. Sleeping Dogs, Tomb Raider and DX:MD have all shown that this can be done.
As I said before: BL2
 
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27. Re: etc. Aug 7, 2017, 04:47 Jerykk
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 18:17:
@Rilcon: I'm not sure why you say the market isn't growing. We've seen this industry increase from millions to billions over the past few decades. Also EA, Activision, Tencent, and many others are profitable or very profitable companies.

The problem we're complaining about here is that now full price games are adopting the monetization techniques of free to play. We hate it when a game diverges from its primary purpose of providing entertainment to become a cash sucking machine. If done unobtrusively like BL2, you hardly notice. But if intrudes into the core gameplay, then it's a huge problem for a game that people paid full price for.

There's a big difference between adding microtransactions and adopting a mobile monetization scheme. F2P mobile games are gated so that you are forced to spend money if you want to progress or compete with other players. That's how games like Candy Crush or Clash of Clans make so much money. I seriously doubt that will be the case in Shadow of War. It's a mainstream AAA game so it's going to be easy by default and you will definitely be able to complete all of its content without grinding or paying for microtransactions.

Make no mistake, the primary purpose of professional game development isn't to provide entertainment. Like any other business, the goal is to make as much money as possible. The trick is doing so in a way that doesn't make customers feel like they're being exploited. Ideally, that means making a quality game that people enjoy and are therefore willing to pay for. However, it's possible to do that AND have completely optional microtransactions that don't have any significant impact on the overall experience. Sleeping Dogs, Tomb Raider and DX:MD have all shown that this can be done.
 
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26. Re: etc. Aug 7, 2017, 02:29 jdreyer
 
NKD wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 19:45:
I honestly don't give a fuck about these types of microtransactions. In fact, bring it on. If you can milk the idiots dumb enough to buy them instead of milking me, go for it. People flipped a lid about the shit you could buy in Mankind Divided, but lo and behold the game threw that shit at you for free and didn't pressure you at all.

And if they turn a 30 hour game into 100 hour grindfest if you don't buy said microtransactions, are you going to just grind it out?
 
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25. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 23:10 Suppa7
 
Fletch wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 19:45:
"the developers add that players can "save time" if they use Gold"

Purposely make the game a grind, and then offer players a way to circumvent said grind by paying a ransom. I detest third-person console ports, so I wasn't really interested in the game in the first place, but, as a PC gamer, it pisses me off that this bullshit is on it's way to becoming ubiquitous in PC gaming. Fuck you, Monolith, as well as anybody who's ever paid for skins or XP or loot crates, etc.

LOL it started with mmo's buddy 20 years ago, as soon as they found out there were gamers dumb enough to pay a subscription fee for a drm'd rpg branded as mmo it was all over, all mmo's are simply single player rpg's /w multiplayer rebranded mmo.

The fact that we have private world of warcraft servers is proof that mmos were always a tax on the stupid, it all began with the mmo cancer. MMO's were a test balloon to noramlize drm. The fact that there is now a generation of gamers who don't give two shits about drm (diablo 3, etc) shows us our species is fucking downright subhuman in its impulse not to fuck itself over.
 
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24. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 22:11 Rilcon
 
"I'm not sure why you say the market isn't growing. We've seen this industry increase from millions to billions over the past few decades. Also EA, Activision, Tencent, and many others are profitable or very profitable companies."

Market growth in the last decade and bit has been mainly in "casual" games, competitive online, and F2P, last I checked, and you'll notice the companies you named are heavily into floods of small DLC, microtransactions (including MP P2W), and F2P.


"You do realize that when we buy the game, we give them money, don't you?"

Yes... the problem is it's not enough money. The more features you want in a game, the more people and/or time it takes to make the game. If you're still charging the same ~$50 for a game that cost $80mil to make now as you did for a game that cost $10mil ten you years ago, you either sell eight times more units or you figure out another way to make a profit. And I'm fairly sure the budget for this is well over $80mil.


If they can make it work, cool. If not and it's obnoxious or gating chunks of gameplay (or just making things overly difficult) only to those with way too much free time or money, then not cool. For now I prefer to not be fatalistic.
 
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23. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 22:08 NKD
 
Fletch wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 20:36:
Rilcon wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 15:15:
More features are always all well and good but the money to make them has to come from somewhere.
You do realize that when we buy the game, we give them money, don't you?

That $50-60 we've been giving them for 30 years means less and less every year, while the cost to make the games goes up every year. For a while, they offset this by simply selling more copies because the gamer base was growing. Then they had to actively make the games more accessible to sell even more.

But we don't see those huge jumps in AAA gamers anymore. So, where are they making up the extra money if they aren't raising the price of the game itself? Microtransactions. Or 'Deluxe' editions that have some shitty toy or some other useless stuff that will get hardcore fans to buy it but without making most gamers feel like they are missing anything.

People hate sticker shock. They hate to see prices go up. So this leaves them with really only alternative strategies for making more money that are easier for consumers to swallow.
 
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22. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 20:36 Fletch
 
Rilcon wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 15:15:
More features are always all well and good but the money to make them has to come from somewhere.
You do realize that when we buy the game, we give them money, don't you?
 
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21. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 19:45 Fletch
 
"the developers add that players can "save time" if they use Gold"

Purposely make the game a grind, and then offer players a way to circumvent said grind by paying a ransom. I detest third-person console ports, so I wasn't really interested in the game in the first place, but, as a PC gamer, it pisses me off that this bullshit is on it's way to becoming ubiquitous in PC gaming. Fuck you, Monolith, as well as anybody who's ever paid for skins or XP or loot crates, etc.
 
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20. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 19:45 NKD
 
I honestly don't give a fuck about these types of microtransactions. In fact, bring it on. If you can milk the idiots dumb enough to buy them instead of milking me, go for it. People flipped a lid about the shit you could buy in Mankind Divided, but lo and behold the game threw that shit at you for free and didn't pressure you at all.  
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19. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 18:33 eRe4s3r
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 18:00:
eRe4s3r wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 11:22:
Venezuela like Somalia, is only a nation in name.

At one point Venezuela several years ago had the fourth highest per capital income in the world.

Now it's a shit show. I feel bad for those people.


I feel bad for them too, believe me. The extreme inflation they suffer (a few months ago even you could get 1$ for 270 bolivar, now it's over 10000 bolivar for 1$. The complete collapse of any semblance of legal checks and balances, and the entire corrupted democratic establishment... Venezuela is truly lost if they don't fight this with all their power.

The idea of just rewriting a constitution is good and fine, but with a rigged council that only includes reigning party members? That's just insane. The fucktard in power there basically sets Venezuela up as the next failed state where terrorism will fester.
 
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18. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 18:17 jdreyer
 
@Rilcon: I'm not sure why you say the market isn't growing. We've seen this industry increase from millions to billions over the past few decades. Also EA, Activision, Tencent, and many others are profitable or very profitable companies.

The problem we're complaining about here is that now full price games are adopting the monetization techniques of free to play. We hate it when a game diverges from its primary purpose of providing entertainment to become a cash sucking machine. If done unobtrusively like BL2, you hardly notice. But if intrudes into the core gameplay, then it's a huge problem for a game that people paid full price for.
 
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17. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 18:08 HorrorScope
 
This is single player right?

I don't know why God needs a spaceship.

I don't know why I have to buy better loot to compete vs myself.

Are they getting rid of easy/med/hard and turning this into an impossible to win game otherwise?

Hmmm....
 
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16. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 18:00 jdreyer
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 11:22:
Venezuela like Somalia, is only a nation in name.

At one point Venezuela several years ago had the fourth highest per capital income in the world.

Now it's a shit show. I feel bad for those people.

 
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15. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 17:58 jdreyer
 
MacLeod wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 09:37:
And loot boxes in a single player game...

Go fuck yourselves.

Meh, Borderlands has had them for years. Didn't affect the game at all.
 
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14. Re: etc. Aug 6, 2017, 17:30 RedEye9
 
Rilcon wrote on Aug 6, 2017, 15:15:

I don't know if people realize this, but the cost of making (and marketing) a "AAA" game has risen to absurd levels, while the price of buying a game hasn't moved from the $40-60 area for over a decade, nor has the market increased much. Add to that that people don't want to just break even (ie. pay back the bank/investors), they want to make enough to fund new projects and the downtimes between them; these games have teams of 50 to 400 people working on them, not counting outsourcers, and the time you spend without a signed project in the works or investors happy there're clear profits coming up is money you're burning away, and likely letting talent (that you spent a lot in training) go (which leads to delays due to hiring whenever you actually have something again).

"AAA" games in general are either going to see a price increase, more stuff like this, or even more dependence on DLC/episodic. Even indie games are seeing their prices increase, and plenty of studios still dissolve after one or two games.

...
I would rather pay $80 up front than feel the need to buy $20 DLC.
 
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