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Evening Metaverse

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24. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 15, 2017, 23:11 Orogogus
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Jul 15, 2017, 13:25:
Orogogus wrote on Jul 15, 2017, 11:57:
I think the last point is more cogent than the lack of competition.
So, you think there are more ISPs which provide content than ISPs which have a broadband monopoly? We'd have to agree to disagree on that point. An even better transport analogy would be, imagine if one car manufacturer's cars were allowed to go 70 mph on the interstates but others were only allowed to go 45 mph. How long do you think that would last before the people rose up against it in mass numbers?

I think the monopoly is less relevant than ISPs providing content. The costs of laying infrastructure make the monopoly inevitable to some extent. And even if there were more competition there's nothing to suggest that the new ISPs wouldn't all go into business of providing content, or at least making deals with companies that do generate content. There are a lot of network and cable television channels, but nearly all of the non-premium stations have commercials.

The monopoly situation sucks for pricing and customer service and it's a big problem, but I don't think it ties directly into net neutrality.
 
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23. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 15, 2017, 14:53 jdreyer
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Jul 15, 2017, 13:25:
Orogogus wrote on Jul 15, 2017, 11:57:
I think the last point is more cogent than the lack of competition.
So, you think there are more ISPs which provide content than ISPs which have a broadband monopoly? We'd have to agree to disagree on that point. An even better transport analogy would be, imagine if one car manufacturer's cars were allowed to go 70 mph on the interstates but others were only allowed to go 45 mph. How long do you think that would last before the people rose up against it in mass numbers?

Both problems are actually increasing. ISPs are solidifying their monopoly position through government (especially state and local) lobbying, while at the same time acquiring content providers in order to have a full stack. It's insidious, and definitely not free-market.
 
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22. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 15, 2017, 13:25 Mr. Tact
 
Orogogus wrote on Jul 15, 2017, 11:57:
I think the last point is more cogent than the lack of competition.
So, you think there are more ISPs which provide content than ISPs which have a broadband monopoly? We'd have to agree to disagree on that point. An even better transport analogy would be, imagine if one car manufacturer's cars were allowed to go 70 mph on the interstates but others were only allowed to go 45 mph. How long do you think that would last before the people rose up against it in mass numbers?
 
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21. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 15, 2017, 11:57 Orogogus
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 09:02:
Yes, in a perfect world, normal capitalistic forces would drive ISPs to be more responsible towards the consumers. However, you can't have the competition factors which might drive ISPs to be consumer focused when in a vast majority of locations there is a monopoly for broadband delivery. This becomes especially problematic when the ISPs and the content providers are owned by the same people.

I think the last point is more cogent than the lack of competition. Steam, Google and Amazon have more competition than my local ISPs do, but it wouldn't be okay at all for Steam to prioritize CS bandwidth over PUBG, or Google to screw with search results for iPhones or apps competing with Hangouts, Calendar, Gmail, etc. It's slightly skeezy that Amazon puts its own products at the top of search results, but one click changes the sort results and that's that.

Of course, given the lack of competition WaltC's argument is just insulting. It's like if airports were allowed to run their own flights and proceeded to dick over the other airlines. Well, you can always drive, says the tool of the corporate machine.
 
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20. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 14, 2017, 02:17 jdreyer
 
Yes, we need to get rid of regulations because the ISPs are so reasonable and customer-focused.  
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19. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 14:23 jdreyer
 
LittleMe wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 07:56:
Net Neutrality is conjured up by socialists. It won't work. It doesn't solve the problem. Competition and and open market for wired internet is the solution but that's more ethereal. People want things written in stone which is a bad idea long term.


It would be great if there was a free and open internet market. That's never going to happen. We have entrenched monopolies. They need regulations. There's a reason four of the top five most hated companies in America are ISPs.
 
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18. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 14:15 jdreyer
 
WaltC wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 08:22:
LittleMe wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 07:56:
Net Neutrality is conjured up by socialists. It won't work. It doesn't solve the problem. Competition and and open market for wired internet is the solution but that's more ethereal. People want things written in stone which is a bad idea long term.


The folks who manufacture the fear about 'net neutrality' are despicable, imo. It's one of the worst-written articles I've ever read, actually. It's pure naked, ignorant fear-mongering from start to finish. I've been an Internet consumer every day since 1995, and the *only* changes I have seen have been for the better--it's so much better now than it was then and it was all accomplished without the aid of a single, solitary government regulation. Without a bunch of heavy-handed top-down laws governing the Internet, the Internet has flourished. What they are trying to do is talk weak-minded people into believing a "need" exists to regulate the Internet, by a government that can barely tie its own shoes--so that they can ultimately *control the content.* If what you want is government censorship--then, yes, by all means support 'network neutrality.' Anytime people want to politicize technology you can be sure that their motivation is *not* good for consumers. The best Internet is an Internet free to respond to its customers. For some unfathomable reason, 'net-neutrality' dupes believe that crooked politicians and "Washington" care more about them than their ISPs--who need *their business* just to survive.

1. "My personal experience has been fine so there's no problem!"

2. There absolutely have been regulations on the internet for decades. For example, not collecting tax on internet commerce.

3. ISPs don't need to please their customers at all. They are a MONOPOLY or at best a duopoly. A monopoly is even worse than the government, because at least the government is accountable to the voters. A monopoly is accountable to no one.

4. Net neutrality has nothing to do with censorship. If it goes away, ISPs will censor though, anyone who doesn't pay them.
 
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17. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 14:04 jdreyer
 
Cutter wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 11:56:
jdreyer wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 03:49:
Cutter wrote on Jul 12, 2017, 21:15:
The US worker had been headed down for decades now regardless of the internet. And let's face it, while you can actually learn stuff online the overwhelming majority is just needless entertainment/porn/games. If it ended tomorrow people would miss it for all of a week before getting on with their lives once more. The internet doesn't create food and shelter and clothing.

Did you read the article?

It is among these workers, sometimes referred to as 'blue-collar,' 'rural,' or 'low-income,' where our country's still-active digital divide is most pronounced, and even growing. With nearly each passing day, more and more of the resources that they and other non-super-wealthy Americans need simply to survive are located online (and often only online), from unemployment applications to medical services, as well as the job and educational opportunities needed to change their situations for the better, for good.

Emphasis mine. What you're saying is "No one needs plumbing. They can just dig an outhouse and haul water." That's not the world we live in any longer, not how our society is structured. We can't go back to the paper economy of 1990 just because we want to. The internet has become ubiquitous. With ubiquity comes reliance. Monopolistic industries like ISPs need more regulation, not less. ISPs are already making 100% gross profits, do they really need more money?

You utterly fail to grasp the reality of basic economics. Everyone everywhere can't be involved in service based economies. People need to actually make shit. Yes, people need plumbing, and they need plumbers more than they need the internet. How can you be so obtuse?
How can YOU be so obtuse. The internet has become an essential service, but are suggesting that it is not.
 
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16. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 13:10 RedEye9
 
Beamer wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 12:39:
Cutter wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 11:56:
jdreyer wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 03:49:
Cutter wrote on Jul 12, 2017, 21:15:
The US worker had been headed down for decades now regardless of the internet. And let's face it, while you can actually learn stuff online the overwhelming majority is just needless entertainment/porn/games. If it ended tomorrow people would miss it for all of a week before getting on with their lives once more. The internet doesn't create food and shelter and clothing.

Did you read the article?

It is among these workers, sometimes referred to as 'blue-collar,' 'rural,' or 'low-income,' where our country's still-active digital divide is most pronounced, and even growing. With nearly each passing day, more and more of the resources that they and other non-super-wealthy Americans need simply to survive are located online (and often only online), from unemployment applications to medical services, as well as the job and educational opportunities needed to change their situations for the better, for good.

Emphasis mine. What you're saying is "No one needs plumbing. They can just dig an outhouse and haul water." That's not the world we live in any longer, not how our society is structured. We can't go back to the paper economy of 1990 just because we want to. The internet has become ubiquitous. With ubiquity comes reliance. Monopolistic industries like ISPs need more regulation, not less. ISPs are already making 100% gross profits, do they really need more money?

You utterly fail to grasp the reality of basic economics. Everyone everywhere can't be involved in service based economies. People need to actually make shit. Yes, people need plumbing, and they need plumbers more than they need the internet. How can you be so obtuse?

Except how do you find a plumber without the internet? Lots of regions no longer have phone books.

And how do you pay for a plumber without a job, something that is nearly impossible to get without the internet.
It's here to stay and growing everyday
 
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15. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 12:39 Beamer
 
Cutter wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 11:56:
jdreyer wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 03:49:
Cutter wrote on Jul 12, 2017, 21:15:
The US worker had been headed down for decades now regardless of the internet. And let's face it, while you can actually learn stuff online the overwhelming majority is just needless entertainment/porn/games. If it ended tomorrow people would miss it for all of a week before getting on with their lives once more. The internet doesn't create food and shelter and clothing.

Did you read the article?

It is among these workers, sometimes referred to as 'blue-collar,' 'rural,' or 'low-income,' where our country's still-active digital divide is most pronounced, and even growing. With nearly each passing day, more and more of the resources that they and other non-super-wealthy Americans need simply to survive are located online (and often only online), from unemployment applications to medical services, as well as the job and educational opportunities needed to change their situations for the better, for good.

Emphasis mine. What you're saying is "No one needs plumbing. They can just dig an outhouse and haul water." That's not the world we live in any longer, not how our society is structured. We can't go back to the paper economy of 1990 just because we want to. The internet has become ubiquitous. With ubiquity comes reliance. Monopolistic industries like ISPs need more regulation, not less. ISPs are already making 100% gross profits, do they really need more money?

You utterly fail to grasp the reality of basic economics. Everyone everywhere can't be involved in service based economies. People need to actually make shit. Yes, people need plumbing, and they need plumbers more than they need the internet. How can you be so obtuse?

Except how do you find a plumber without the internet? Lots of regions no longer have phone books.

And how do you pay for a plumber without a job, something that is nearly impossible to get without the internet.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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14. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 11:56 Cutter
 
jdreyer wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 03:49:
Cutter wrote on Jul 12, 2017, 21:15:
The US worker had been headed down for decades now regardless of the internet. And let's face it, while you can actually learn stuff online the overwhelming majority is just needless entertainment/porn/games. If it ended tomorrow people would miss it for all of a week before getting on with their lives once more. The internet doesn't create food and shelter and clothing.

Did you read the article?

It is among these workers, sometimes referred to as 'blue-collar,' 'rural,' or 'low-income,' where our country's still-active digital divide is most pronounced, and even growing. With nearly each passing day, more and more of the resources that they and other non-super-wealthy Americans need simply to survive are located online (and often only online), from unemployment applications to medical services, as well as the job and educational opportunities needed to change their situations for the better, for good.

Emphasis mine. What you're saying is "No one needs plumbing. They can just dig an outhouse and haul water." That's not the world we live in any longer, not how our society is structured. We can't go back to the paper economy of 1990 just because we want to. The internet has become ubiquitous. With ubiquity comes reliance. Monopolistic industries like ISPs need more regulation, not less. ISPs are already making 100% gross profits, do they really need more money?

You utterly fail to grasp the reality of basic economics. Everyone everywhere can't be involved in service based economies. People need to actually make shit. Yes, people need plumbing, and they need plumbers more than they need the internet. How can you be so obtuse?
 
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You've got to be cruel to be kind...in the right measure.
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13. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 11:34 Mr. Tact
 
I don't think I could say my Internet service has gotten worse. But yeah, the price continues to grow. Yes, my speed cap goes up, but how many people really need more than 10 Mbit downloads in their home? The times I've done multiple GB downloads I've never seen a throughput of more than 6 Mbit. So, I don't see upping my cap from 50 Mbit to 75 Mbit as being useful to me.

On the occasions when I needed to interact with their customer service, it always seems to absolutely suck. On the other hand, on the few occasions I've needed a technician to show up at my house, the tech has always been seemingly knowledgeable and willing to admit their phone support blows chunks. (for the record, I'm talking about Comcast)
 
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12. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 10:55 Orogogus
 
My Internet service has absolutely gotten worse since 1997, when I first signed up. They are 100% throttling YouTube (and I assume Netflix, Hulu, etc.) -- after work, if I try to load YouTube videos, half the time they sit and buffer until they give up and default to something absurd like 144p. But this problem went away when I switched to Google's public DNS, and recurs if I switch back.

And it's also gotten more expensive, on the order of $25 -> $60. Every two or three years it goes up again because yet another promotional rate has expired, even though the last time I applied for one was in 2005.

Granted, it's also gotten faster, but I'd call it a net loss.
 
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11. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 10:17 Beamer
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 09:02:
So, what you are saying is we were imagining it when ISPs throttled traffic from specific applications, or specific sites? That by forcing certain content providers pay extra money the ISPs are supporting the base line consumers?

Yes, in a perfect world, normal capitalistic forces would drive ISPs to be more responsible towards the consumers. However, you can't have the competition factors which might drive ISPs to be consumer focused when in a vast majority of locations there is a monopoly for broadband delivery. This becomes especially problematic when the ISPs and the content providers are owned by the same people.


Don't feed the Alex Joneses.
 
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http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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10. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 09:02 Mr. Tact
 
So, what you are saying is we were imagining it when ISPs throttled traffic from specific applications, or specific sites? That by forcing certain content providers pay extra money the ISPs are supporting the base line consumers?

Yes, in a perfect world, normal capitalistic forces would drive ISPs to be more responsible towards the consumers. However, you can't have the competition factors which might drive ISPs to be consumer focused when in a vast majority of locations there is a monopoly for broadband delivery. This becomes especially problematic when the ISPs and the content providers are owned by the same people.

 
Truth is brutal. Prepare for pain.
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9. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 08:22 WaltC
 
LittleMe wrote on Jul 13, 2017, 07:56:
Net Neutrality is conjured up by socialists. It won't work. It doesn't solve the problem. Competition and and open market for wired internet is the solution but that's more ethereal. People want things written in stone which is a bad idea long term.


The folks who manufacture the fear about 'net neutrality' are despicable, imo. It's one of the worst-written articles I've ever read, actually. It's pure naked, ignorant fear-mongering from start to finish. I've been an Internet consumer every day since 1995, and the *only* changes I have seen have been for the better--it's so much better now than it was then and it was all accomplished without the aid of a single, solitary government regulation. Without a bunch of heavy-handed top-down laws governing the Internet, the Internet has flourished. What they are trying to do is talk weak-minded people into believing a "need" exists to regulate the Internet, by a government that can barely tie its own shoes--so that they can ultimately *control the content.* If what you want is government censorship--then, yes, by all means support 'network neutrality.' Anytime people want to politicize technology you can be sure that their motivation is *not* good for consumers. The best Internet is an Internet free to respond to its customers. For some unfathomable reason, 'net-neutrality' dupes believe that crooked politicians and "Washington" care more about them than their ISPs--who need *their business* just to survive.
 
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It is well known that I do not make mistakes--so if you should happen across a mistake in anything I have written, be assured that I did not write it!
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8. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 07:56 LittleMe
 
Net Neutrality is conjured up by socialists. It won't work. It doesn't solve the problem. Competition and and open market for wired internet is the solution but that's more ethereal. People want things written in stone which is a bad idea long term.

 
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Perpetual debt is slavery.
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7. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 13, 2017, 03:49 jdreyer
 
Cutter wrote on Jul 12, 2017, 21:15:
The US worker had been headed down for decades now regardless of the internet. And let's face it, while you can actually learn stuff online the overwhelming majority is just needless entertainment/porn/games. If it ended tomorrow people would miss it for all of a week before getting on with their lives once more. The internet doesn't create food and shelter and clothing.

Did you read the article?

It is among these workers, sometimes referred to as 'blue-collar,' 'rural,' or 'low-income,' where our country's still-active digital divide is most pronounced, and even growing. With nearly each passing day, more and more of the resources that they and other non-super-wealthy Americans need simply to survive are located online (and often only online), from unemployment applications to medical services, as well as the job and educational opportunities needed to change their situations for the better, for good.

Emphasis mine. What you're saying is "No one needs plumbing. They can just dig an outhouse and haul water." That's not the world we live in any longer, not how our society is structured. We can't go back to the paper economy of 1990 just because we want to. The internet has become ubiquitous. With ubiquity comes reliance. Monopolistic industries like ISPs need more regulation, not less. ISPs are already making 100% gross profits, do they really need more money?
 
Avatar 22024
 
Stay a while, and listen.
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6. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 12, 2017, 21:41 RedEye9
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Jul 12, 2017, 21:36:
Err? A farm combine as in, (from dictionary.com) "a harvesting machine for cutting and threshing grain in the field."
sorry, forgot the ;-)
 
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5. Re: Evening Metaverse Jul 12, 2017, 21:38 Frijoles
 
Programming before the internet was a pain in the ass. I think I'd change careers if it went away.  
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