Bumpy wrote on Apr 11, 2017, 21:52:
Appears this innocent older doctor is not so innocent and definitely has issues.

It's kind of obvious that the doc has issues, but will any of them plus a previous felony conviction be admissible in court.

Kxmode wrote on Apr 12, 2017, 17:31:
My reaction when I quote the president of the largest non-profit consumer organization in the U.S. for airline passengers and whose staff consist of doctors and lawyers responsible for ten passenger rights, and the response is "He's expressing his opinion." http://i.imgur.com/5E3mcgY.gif

It is his opinion. He neither makes law, nor enforces it. It's also a position that would be hard pressed to survive a court test. The ADA of 90 for example, is in full force for public and private transportation business. This has been tested in court several times.

Kxmode wrote on Apr 12, 2017, 17:31:
This whole time I've seen civil rights tossed around. However, neither civil rights or civil liberties are consumer rights. It behooves you to learn the difference between civil rights and civil liberties as each provides different kinds of guarantees.

- Civil rights refer to equal conditions for all Americans.
- Civil liberties are protections against government actions. For example, the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights guarantees the Government cannot interfere with an individual's freedom of worship.

Also not quite on target. Civil rights are not equal guarantees for all citizens, in fact, they often target specific sub sets of citizens based on specific characteristics - the ADA example above, the Pregnancy Discrimination Act of 78, Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 67, and others.

Kxmode wrote on Apr 12, 2017, 17:31:
Americans have the guaranteed civil right to fly without discrimination (except those on No Fly Lists). Americans also have the civil liberty to choose any carrier they wish. Neither has any bearing on being forced to leave a plane. The point I'm making is the Airline's actions is a morality play. I think what they did is morally wrong, but it wasn't legally wrong or against civil and liberty rights. Hope the distinction is clearer.

The resulting lawsuits and can't-do-it-fast-enough settlements against United, Chicago Department of Aviation, and the officers involved are going to show that those who are closest to the issue don't agree with your analysis of the legal risk.

Was just thinking this clown of a CEO will probably make more money this year than I did in my entire working career. Looked it up -- in 2015 he was paid $600k in salary and $6m in stock options. Must be nice...

Web advertising is kind of infamous for that. It's kind of like The Man's bots making their presence known; bring up a keyword, The Man's opinion intrudes. So you bash something of interest to The Man, you get his take, which is likely opposite yours. All of which is all kind of obvious, I guess...

JohnQP wrote on Apr 13, 2017, 08:58:
Chicago PD already have a long-earned shit reputation, like the LAPD. Isn't it CPD who roughed the guy up?

Just have to marvel at how this comment seems to have triggered a programatic Chicago tourism ad on my PC. Oops.

Kxmode, if you are not being sarcastic; no, you still have civil rights on board an airplane. The rule of law is not suspended because it's a 'private business.' Assault is still assault.

True, but assaulting someone who has defied repeated requests to leave your property isn't necessarily a crime. Calling the police to get them to do the assaulting certainly isn't.

Yes, airlines have a ton more laws governing them, but this is only because the odds of dying in a plane are significantly higher than eating a Big Mac.

That, and the frequent flyer class tend to make the laws.

Chicago PD already have a long-earned shit reputation, like the LAPD. Isn't it CPD who roughed the guy up?

My reaction when I quote the president of the largest non-profit consumer organization in the U.S. for airline passengers and whose staff consist of doctors and lawyers responsible for ten passenger rights, and the response is "He's expressing his opinion." http://i.imgur.com/5E3mcgY.gif

This whole time I've seen civil rights tossed around. However, neither civil rights or civil liberties are consumer rights. It behooves you to learn the difference between civil rights and civil liberties as each provides different kinds of guarantees.

- Civil rights refer to equal conditions for all Americans.
- Civil liberties are protections against government actions. For example, the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights guarantees the Government cannot interfere with an individual's freedom of worship.

Americans have the guaranteed civil right to fly without discrimination (except those on No Fly Lists). Americans also have the civil liberty to choose any carrier they wish. Neither has any bearing on being forced to leave a plane. The point I'm making is the Airline's actions is a morality play. I think what they did is morally wrong, but it wasn't legally wrong or against civil and liberty rights. Hope the distinction is clearer.

Anyhow, since this is going nowhere I'm going to http://i.imgur.com/Gpa4i21.gif

Kxmode, are you this dense for real?

His civil rights were violated when he got his head smashed into a seatback or armrest, and got dragged off the plane by the police while semi-conscious. What is there that you cannot understand?

If he was selected based on race to be bumped, then United violated his civil rights. If they find that the United employees encouraged the police to use violence on him(described him as unruly, dangerous, whatever), that is a violation of his civil rights. Both are going to be harder to determine just from that brief video, but that's what one of the trials will be for.


Paul Hudson, former attorney, not to be confused with the Supreme Court of the United States, or any other acting court. He's expressing his opinion, not a Supreme Court ruling, and trying to make flying customers' and the airlines lives' easier. Not exactly objective. Why you keep treating that one quote of his as absolute law boggles the mind.

But whatever, you seem unable to wrap your head around the basic idea of "physical assault violates a person's civil rights," so have fun. Any halfway decent attorney will easily win this doctor's case against the police, and probably against United as well.

MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Apr 12, 2017, 06:04:

Kxmode wrote on Apr 11, 2017, 19:07:
Do U.S. Citizens have civil rights on a plane? [ ] Yes [ X ] No [ ] Maybe

Okay, this is getting ridiculous, but you keep saying this, and you are incorrect. Your civil rights are NOT suspended when you board an airplane. One oblique quote from a former attorney does not suspend the Constitution or any other state protection laws for citizens. Being on private property of any sort, flying or otherwise, does not suspend your civil rights.

You seem unable to understand this.

"Your regular civil rights don’t apply when you’re on an airplane," said Paul Hudson of FlyersRights.org, the largest nonprofit airline consumer protection organization. "What you should do if you have a problem with a flight crew is to document it and file a complaint later. You have rights, but you have to exercise them once you’re off the flight."

Again, there's a confusion between regular (or public) civil rights and consumer rights. They're apples and oranges. A passenger on a private-run airline does not have civil rights to a seat. It's a business arrangement. Civil rights afford the ability to fly without discrimination. Being refused a ticket because of race or religion is an example of a violation of civil rights. Asking for volunteers to vacate a plane and then picking people at random is morally wrong, but it isn't a violation of civil rights.

- Civil Rights - A class of rights that protect individuals' freedom from infringement by governments, social organizations, and private individuals. No mention of private business.
- Consumer Rights - A group of laws and organizations designed to ensure the rights of consumers, as well as fair trade, competition, and accurate information in the marketplace. Specifically for private businesses.

Please learn the difference between both because one applies; the other does not.

This comment was edited on Apr 12, 2017, 14:17.

Kxmode wrote on Apr 11, 2017, 19:07:
Do U.S. Citizens have civil rights on a plane? [ ] Yes [ X ] No [ ] Maybe

Okay, this is getting ridiculous, but you keep saying this, and you are incorrect. Your civil rights are NOT suspended when you board an airplane. One oblique quote from a former attorney does not suspend the Constitution or any other state protection laws for citizens. Being on private property of any sort, flying or otherwise, does not suspend your civil rights.

You seem unable to understand this.

Kxmode wrote on Apr 11, 2017, 19:07:
At the risk of injecting civility into the discussion (because it looks some are foaming at the mouth; looking at you Agent-Zero). I think we're talking past each other. It would be good to establish some facts so that going forward we can at least discuss this on about the same level. Here's my response:

Did the Airline do the moral thing? [ ] Yes [ X ] No [ ] Maybe

Do U.S. Citizens have civil rights on a plane? [ ] Yes [ X ] No [ ] Maybe

Do U.S. Citizens have consumer rights on a plane? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe

When U.S. Citizens purchase airline tickets, do they enter into a private agreement with the carrier? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe

Does the airline have the ability to revoke or modify a ticket for any reason? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe (A person entering into a business transaction with each carrier follows a contract. For United Airlines they have 30 rules)

Can the police request and then remove by force any non-compliant person? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe

No one gives a shit what the airlines rights are, clue into what the fuck the big deal is about. Their stock didn't tank 1.8 billion because people care about the airline, its rights or what the police are allowed to do.

Kxmode wrote on Apr 11, 2017, 19:07:
At the risk of injecting civility into the discussion (because it looks some are foaming at the mouth; looking at you Agent-Zero). I think we're talking past each other. It would be good to establish some facts so that going forward we can at least discuss this on about the same level. Here's my response:

Did the Airline do the moral thing? [ ] Yes [ X ] No [ ] Maybe

Do U.S. Citizens have civil rights on a plane? [ ] Yes [ X ] No [ ] Maybe

Do U.S. Citizens have consumer rights on a plane? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe

When U.S. Citizens purchase airline tickets, do they enter into a private agreement with the carrier? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe

Does the airline have the ability to revoke or modify a ticket for any reason? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe (A person entering into a business transaction with each carrier follows a contract. For United Airlines they have 30 rules)

Can the police request and then remove by force any non-compliant person? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe

Do you live in a shitty country then? [X]Yes [X] Yes [X] Yes

Bearing in mind I'm super pro-consumer rights... Yeah you come across looking like the worst thing in the world to me.

@Bumpy - Be careful with anything from Daily Mail. It's UK's rumor mill paper (like National Enquirer in the U.S.).

Appears this innocent older doctor is not so innocent and definitely has issues.

* REMOVED *
This comment was deleted on Apr 12, 2017, 07:50.

At the risk of injecting civility into the discussion (because it looks some are foaming at the mouth; looking at you Agent-Zero). I think we're talking past each other. It would be good to establish some facts so that going forward we can at least discuss this on about the same level. Here's my response:

Did the Airline do the moral thing? [ ] Yes [ X ] No [ ] Maybe

Do U.S. Citizens have civil rights on a plane? [ ] Yes [ X ] No [ ] Maybe

Do U.S. Citizens have consumer rights on a plane? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe

When U.S. Citizens purchase airline tickets, do they enter into a private agreement with the carrier? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe

Does the airline have the ability to revoke or modify a ticket for any reason? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe (A person entering into a business transaction with each carrier follows a contract. For United Airlines they have 30 rules)

Can the police request and then remove by force any non-compliant person? [ X ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe

lol how typical

reap what you sow, dumbass

I'm still impressed that United has public defenders. Have you flown on United?

Have you sat in seats in which if the plane were to catch fire you are certainly dead as there is no spare room to move? To even get out of the plane in a timely fashion?

Have you sat there and had dirty came with the seat headphones plugged into a broken sound jack that you had to manually hold in to hear the movies sound?

Have you ever had to deal with United customer service giving you only some stupid excuse instead of your money back? "well its our money now so we will give you a minor coupon for something later"

You go to probably any other country aside from outright authoritarian ones, this kind of thing would result in people being fired. In the US though they are being patted on the backs for this whole stunt. Man the US has really fallen hasn't it? Just not a single pro-consumer left to be found.

* REMOVED *
This comment was deleted on Apr 11, 2017, 11:52.

Emotion and not logic are driving the majority reaction to this situation.

You're like a mosquito. Yeah why would people react emotionally to United forcing a dumb fucking situation that resulted in a senior being forcibly removed when they could've easily defused it a dozen different ways? Why would they react emotionally when they can see themselves easily in this same situation? I wonder HMMM.