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40. Re: etc. Mar 21, 2017, 01:28 Beamer
 
They worked for a dev that was outsourced to. If you know anything about development, or common sense, it's obvious she didn't have the final say in anything, and was only marginally involved. But, I mean, GG lacks dev experience and common sense, and all they saw was a woman they could blame, and one that fit their world view that she must have gotten the position due to sex.

You're an incredibly awful human being. Why was I the first to respond? Because everyone else responding to kxmode on similar topics has you on ignore.
 
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39. No subject Mar 20, 2017, 22:17 Mashiki Amiketo
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2017, 00:18:
I have no clue what your point is. JonTron made disgusting comments.

I also don't know why you're so angry at a woman who worked at a studio they outsourced to. I mean, she got singled out... because she's a woman! She doesn't work for Bioware, and the errors and issues seem to be coding ones (e.g., technical artists), and regardless, looking at the ME:A credits, at least a dozen people would have touched the work she did before consumers saw it.

But sure, let's keep saying it's her fault. I'm ignoring you. Every post by you is the same thing, always so angry at women.

And yet in that entire rant, you still haven't figured it out. Go on, ask. I'll even explain it using very small words for you.

Perhaps you should just spend a bit more time outside of your bubble, when you do you'll figure out why you were the one who threw the first hissyfit and didn't like the response. But are happy to make wild and baseless assumptions, which are most likely projection.

NewMaxx wrote on Mar 20, 2017, 09:15:

It was another case of misogyny/bullying in gaming related to the perceived ineptitude of the target (Raymond was accused of being chosen for her looks rather than talent). It's relevant to the discussion. As far as my saying "look it up" - my point was that it's very difficult to find, now, largely due to backlash from Ubisoft and others. For the record the target here is actually sufficiently talented according to a source/friend who posted over at [H].

So which is it? They worked and did this or didn't? Is bioware right in saying they didn't, or are they right when they plastered it all over social media that they were the lead facial animator for the game? Is bioware trying to cover or are they lying? The entire thing is a mess, but again if "7-20 people is misogyny" then you're making a literal mountain out of a molehill. But that also didn't stop the press from lying, especially when they decided to say that peoples comments like Maragret Maclennon's is hate-filled either.

Sorry, the gaming press is lying again. And they're lying for precious clicks. The worst offenders are the same sites which have lost 40-80% of their eyeball traffic in the last couple of years as constant outrage culture has burned out. BTW you know that "jade raymond" comic? Yeah it was from something awful, you know troll central. Should think on that a bit too.
 
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38. Re: etc. Mar 20, 2017, 09:15 NewMaxx
 
The Half Elf wrote on Mar 20, 2017, 06:14:
I heard of it but never looked it up. Why?

It was another case of misogyny/bullying in gaming related to the perceived ineptitude of the target (Raymond was accused of being chosen for her looks rather than talent). It's relevant to the discussion. As far as my saying "look it up" - my point was that it's very difficult to find, now, largely due to backlash from Ubisoft and others. For the record the target here is actually sufficiently talented according to a source/friend who posted over at [H].
 
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37. Re: etc. Mar 20, 2017, 06:14 The Half Elf
 
NewMaxx wrote on Mar 20, 2017, 06:08:
The Half Elf wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 23:24:
Assassin's Creed released Nov 13th 2007 (the 1st one and most of the series in the franchise) has had an AMAZING set of very fluid animations over all sorts of terrain. Riding horses, climbing walls, parkour, moving through crowds, etc. Again BACK IN 2007.

Interesting that you mention Assassin's Creed. Anybody else remember the infamous Jade Raymond comic? (for an added bonus, try to find it using a Google search)

I heard of it but never looked it up. Why? Even though I can act like a 4 year old (typically in a good way), I find that just because I CAN do something evil and stupid and get away with it on the internet because of I will never have to deal with it in real life, doesn't mean that I WILL do it.
I believe in Karma. What I give is what I get and vice versa.


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This comment was edited on Mar 20, 2017, 06:33.
 
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36. Re: etc. Mar 20, 2017, 06:08 NewMaxx
 
The Half Elf wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 23:24:
Assassin's Creed released Nov 13th 2007 (the 1st one and most of the series in the franchise) has had an AMAZING set of very fluid animations over all sorts of terrain. Riding horses, climbing walls, parkour, moving through crowds, etc. Again BACK IN 2007.

Interesting that you mention Assassin's Creed. Anybody else remember the infamous Jade Raymond comic? (for an added bonus, try to find it using a Google search)
 
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35. Re: etc. Mar 20, 2017, 04:17 Vio
 
It's a symptom of people being really amped about the game, only to have their expectations crushed.

Honestly those characters look like emotionless automatons. The fact that it looks like this changed my decision from a "pick it up later" into a "no buy".

All in all they should have known better, and have done better 10 years ago.
 
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34. Re: etc. Mar 20, 2017, 02:23 Prez
 
saluk wrote on Mar 20, 2017, 02:20:
Bad art = license to harass. I know game quality is all over the place, but I'm not sure we even DESERVE good games anymore.

Well, you and I do. And probably jdreyer and Half-Elf. But no one else though.
 
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33. Re: etc. Mar 20, 2017, 02:20 saluk
 
Bad art = license to harass. I know game quality is all over the place, but I'm not sure we even DESERVE good games anymore.  
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32. Re: etc. Mar 20, 2017, 02:06 jdreyer
 
The Half Elf wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 23:24:
If you REALLY want to throw around animations (facial or otherwise), then lets go back to Half Life 2 for Facial Animations, and Assassin's Creed for character animations and work our way forward.

Half Life 2 released Nov 16th 2004, set an amazing bar for character facial animations and expressions, thanks in part to I believe Mike Belzer who had an extensive career with Walt Disney and I believe someone else who worked for Pixar for creating the amazing facial animations they used. BACK IN 2004.

Assassin's Creed released Nov 13th 2007 (the 1st one and most of the series in the franchise) has had an AMAZING set of very fluid animations over all sorts of terrain. Riding horses, climbing walls, parkour, moving through crowds, etc. Again BACK IN 2007.

Animation wise, no one bitches about Fallout 4 because they are so much better then Skyrim, Fallout New Vegas, Fallout 3, Oblivion, Morrowind etc.

The complaint is Bioware has released a few games in the Mass Effect Franchise without this glaring lack of care taken for characters, especially when they are putting in their own videos for Mass Effect Andromeda that they are taking EXTRA STEPS to make sure characters feel detailed and personable and alive.
Even Dragon Age Inquisition (another FROSTBYTE ENGINE GAME) has very detailed facial and skeletal animations.

Now you might say 'But most of the game isn't about the characters', to you I say BULLSHIT. Bioware has ALWAYS been about story and characters first (and use to be about character choices until ME 3 (and then patched in a less shitty ending).
When I played ME:A and Ryder's Face covers up 90% of the screen because he's having his closeup shot, and he looks like he's stoned out of his mind, or female Ryder looks like she's had so much bowtox and pot that she can't quit smiling or show any emotions it's bad.
It's SO FUCKING BAD that when the bitch on the Citadel... er whatever the fuck it's called talks about how her face is tired I don't know if she's serious or seriously trolling me considering she's a fucking grammar nazi who can't even be a complete grammer nazi for the rest of her conversations.

Bioware has stated they wanted their games to by YOUR story. But at least with a book I can decide how the characters "feel", when I have to constantly have conversations with lifeless faces for over 40 hours it detracts from the story, the game, and my interest in characters that are nothing but empty lifeless shells that just move their lips.

The video's are out there showing animations from all over Bioware's games. Going back all the way to KOTOR, they have gotten better and better with each game. This is a slap in the face of quality, and to ship a product in this condition and think the fan's won't say anything is asinine.

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31. Re: etc. Mar 20, 2017, 02:03 Prez
 
I did some checking back to Bioware's older games to refresh my memory. Two things I noticed:

1) The games as far back as the original Dragon Age from 2003 all have better faces than what I've seen of Andromeda so far.

2) No matter what the game, all of Bioware's games that use 3D up-close models have characters with eyes that are just... wrong.

Andromeda's characters are made worse by the fact that the eyes look as fucked up as ever, AND they use incredibly badly made faces on the female characters with just stupid-looking expressions that are so goofy they look comical. In this way, yes, Andromeda is markedly worse than any Bethesda game's characters by a substantial margin in my opinion.

Having said that, I don't play games for facial features and animations - hell, I managed to make through the original Max Payne over a dozen times through the years with a lead character who looks like he's been smelling shit the whole game. The dialog is actually more of a big deal for me; dialog or voice acting that's bad enough (not "so bad it's good" like the original Resident Evil or the aforementioned Max Payne, just BAD) can basically ruin the experience for me if there's enough of it in the game. So that's what is really concerning to me about Andromeda.

As for the stupid controversy surrounding the harassment of the Bioware employee... I'm honestly so tired of the internet's bullshit. This shit is just nauseating. The one thing I will definitively say is fuck everyone who feels it is acceptable to verbally abuse a person the way this Bioware employee (EDIT: Lead Designer or not) has been. Over shit you don't like in a fucking videogame. Gender is irrelevant; it's fucking wrong and if you do it you're a piece of shit who should fucking die. And while I'm at it, fuck Kotaku for making this about their stupid fucking agenda with their inferences that this is driven by Gamersgaters and Trump voters. Fucking idiots. All this shit does is stir the pot and escalate the situation, paving the way for more hateful back and forth nonsense.
 
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30. Re: etc. Mar 20, 2017, 00:18 Beamer
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 23:25:
Beamer wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 22:06:
Oh, you're one of those who I point to actual behavior and then just makes weird assumptions back. Show me where I've ever said anything positive about Amy Schumer.

What I don't understand about you fragile, angry men, is why you're singling out a facial animator when people keep posting to awful walking animations. Is it that you can't find a woman to blame those walking animations on? Even KotakuInAction is calling this a horrific, misogynist witchhunt. MA, when you're even further into the red pill than KiA...

Misses the mocking. Doesn't catch the point. Makes baseless assumptions, makes baseless claims. Makes more baseless assumptions. Goes off into crazy territory, and makes another baseless assumption.

Let me know when you're out there standing up and defending Jon Tron to boot. You catch the point yet, or do I need to spell it out for you?


I have no clue what your point is. JonTron made disgusting comments.

I also don't know why you're so angry at a woman who worked at a studio they outsourced to. I mean, she got singled out... because she's a woman! She doesn't work for Bioware, and the errors and issues seem to be coding ones (e.g., technical artists), and regardless, looking at the ME:A credits, at least a dozen people would have touched the work she did before consumers saw it.

But sure, let's keep saying it's her fault. I'm ignoring you. Every post by you is the same thing, always so angry at women.
 
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29. No subject Mar 19, 2017, 23:25 Mashiki Amiketo
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 22:06:
Oh, you're one of those who I point to actual behavior and then just makes weird assumptions back. Show me where I've ever said anything positive about Amy Schumer.

What I don't understand about you fragile, angry men, is why you're singling out a facial animator when people keep posting to awful walking animations. Is it that you can't find a woman to blame those walking animations on? Even KotakuInAction is calling this a horrific, misogynist witchhunt. MA, when you're even further into the red pill than KiA...

Misses the mocking. Doesn't catch the point. Makes baseless assumptions, makes baseless claims. Makes more baseless assumptions. Goes off into crazy territory, and makes another baseless assumption.

Let me know when you're out there standing up and defending Jon Tron to boot. You catch the point yet, or do I need to spell it out for you?
 
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28. Re: etc. Mar 19, 2017, 23:24 The Half Elf
 
If you REALLY want to throw around animations (facial or otherwise), then lets go back to Half Life 2 for Facial Animations, and Assassin's Creed for character animations and work our way forward.

Half Life 2 released Nov 16th 2004, set an amazing bar for character facial animations and expressions, thanks in part to I believe Mike Belzer who had an extensive career with Walt Disney and I believe someone else who worked for Pixar for creating the amazing facial animations they used. BACK IN 2004.

Assassin's Creed released Nov 13th 2007 (the 1st one and most of the series in the franchise) has had an AMAZING set of very fluid animations over all sorts of terrain. Riding horses, climbing walls, parkour, moving through crowds, etc. Again BACK IN 2007.

Animation wise, no one bitches about Fallout 4 because they are so much better then Skyrim, Fallout New Vegas, Fallout 3, Oblivion, Morrowind etc.

The complaint is Bioware has released a few games in the Mass Effect Franchise without this glaring lack of care taken for characters, especially when they are putting in their own videos for Mass Effect Andromeda that they are taking EXTRA STEPS to make sure characters feel detailed and personable and alive.
Even Dragon Age Inquisition (another FROSTBYTE ENGINE GAME) has very detailed facial and skeletal animations.

Now you might say 'But most of the game isn't about the characters', to you I say BULLSHIT. Bioware has ALWAYS been about story and characters first (and use to be about character choices until ME 3 (and then patched in a less shitty ending).
When I played ME:A and Ryder's Face covers up 90% of the screen because he's having his closeup shot, and he looks like he's stoned out of his mind, or female Ryder looks like she's had so much bowtox and pot that she can't quit smiling or show any emotions it's bad.
It's SO FUCKING BAD that when the bitch on the Citadel... er whatever the fuck it's called talks about how her face is tired I don't know if she's serious or seriously trolling me considering she's a fucking grammar nazi who can't even be a complete grammer nazi for the rest of her conversations.

Bioware has stated they wanted their games to by YOUR story. But at least with a book I can decide how the characters "feel", when I have to constantly have conversations with lifeless faces for over 40 hours it detracts from the story, the game, and my interest in characters that are nothing but empty lifeless shells that just move their lips.

The video's are out there showing animations from all over Bioware's games. Going back all the way to KOTOR, they have gotten better and better with each game. This is a slap in the face of quality, and to ship a product in this condition and think the fan's won't say anything is asinine.
 
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27. Re: etc. Mar 19, 2017, 22:50 jdreyer
 
Slick wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 16:56:

I'll wait for someone to have a real reply to my argument that Bethesda has had far worse, for far longer, and never one mention of it. And "well, that's what people expect" ISN'T A COUNTER-ARGUMENT.



Dude, Bethesda's facial graphics and animations have been so bad for so long you just have to say the word "Bethesda" and everyone knows you mean "shittily drawn faces with crappy animation." I remember reading about it in print media, back when that was a thing. Here's a post from six years ago. Here's another.
 
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26. Re: etc. Mar 19, 2017, 22:44 Creston
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 19:55:
Slick wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 16:56:
Bethesda gets a pass for re-using the same engine for 15+ years, with the same garbage animations

I remember very well the animations from Morrowind, and the ones in Skyrim and FO4 are not even close to as bad as they used to be in that engine.
Go back and play Morrowind for a while to get an idea of how much they have improved actually. Not to say they're great by today's standards for AAA, but they have definitely gotten better.

Plus pretty much everyone was bitching about how god-awful the faces and animations in Fallout 4 were. Bethesda definitely did not "get a pass." (Also, Andromeda is substantially better than Fallout 4 in the animation department.)
 
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25. Re: etc. Mar 19, 2017, 22:41 jdreyer
 
Creston wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 12:00:
They HAD a facial animator? Really? Did he just take 4 days a week off?

They were short on testers, so they repurposed him.
 
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24. Re: etc. Mar 19, 2017, 22:41 Creston
 
OpticNerve wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 18:11:
Imagine an Elder Scrolls or Fallout game that had a completely new (and buggy of course - this is Bethesda after all) engine but only allowed limited modding?

It would CRUSH their PC sales, which despite their best efforts to pretend otherwise, are actually pretty huge. Knowing you can fix the bullshit (or someone will fix it for you) is really what makes most people go "Eh, I'll put up with Bethesda's shit for now." If they go away from that, I think a huge number of people would just not bother.

Which is, of course, why they're so married to Gamebryo. They know how the mods work on it. Their modders know how to build mods for it. If they switch to a completely new engine, they could well lose their entire community which is the huge driving force behind their PC sales.

 
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23. Re: etc. Mar 19, 2017, 22:38 Creston
 
NKD wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 20:06:
The only major complaint anyone seems to have about ME:A thus far is that the animations suck. People who have actually played the preview say it's not bad enough to be distracting and there are only a couple examples of actually distracting animations in the first few hours. But when you go onto /r/games or some other forums, the narrative is that the WHOOOOOLE game is utterly garbage 0/10 material.

So people go from "Subpar animations, a few that are really bad." to "0/10 literal garbage, fire all the developers and put them in an internment camp" in about 60 seconds. That's the power of internet circlejerks.

The facial animations are, by and large, pretty terrible. There's the occasional conversation where they're actually good (like seriously good), but most of them you're just "sigh." And then there's quite a few where the camera ISN'T zoomed in on Ryder's face at 140000000%, and those are fine too.

Other character animations are perfectly fine, apart from a buggy one with walking down the stairs, which so far in 10 hours of playing time happened to me exactly once.

The rest of the game is, in my opinion, just good fun. Yeah, there's an occasional LINE of dialogue which is terrible. All of John Walker's examples, including that most favorite one that he posted a screenshot of, is literally ONE line a character says in an entire essay of just normal Mass Effect dialogue. I'm not excusing it, nobody would ever fucking say "my face is tired", but it's literally like four or five bad lines in 3000+ that I've heard so far.

But it's Bioware, and they're an easy target for people to hate, so whatever.

Andromeda is a fun game. It has an incredible way of making you feel as if you're in this world. It may seem like a small thing, but actually being IN a solar system, and being able to look out of your ship and seeing everything that's on the galaxy map out of your window is fucking incredible from an immersion perspective. There's a massive black hole in the center of the Heleus cluster, and there's a spot where you can get very close to it. Seeing that thing out of your window is fucking awesome. It may not be everybody's cup of tea, but I love it.

If you can ignore the horrible facial animations and the few bugs (and the consistent HARD CRASHES ), it's a fun game. The Nomad is cool to powerslide around, the battles can be pretty tough, it's fun to explore. It brings back the exploration of ME and builds on it.


Oh, as for Twitter, fuck Twitter. Twitter is the most inane garbage ever invented by mankind. Maybe someone can build a virus that permanently kicks all Twitter's imbeciles (note, that's not everyone who uses it. Just the shitheels) offline, with no chance of ever going back online. That seems like a worthy goal someone should look into.
 
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22. Re: etc. Mar 19, 2017, 22:06 Beamer
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 20:52:
Beamer wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 19:21:
Likewise. You never get involved unless it's a woman or someone saying nice things about women.
Really? You seem pretty upset still. Maybe you should go cheer on Amy Schumer and complain that her dismal ratings are because of the "alt-right/sexism/racism/misogyny" instead of her just being shit and unable to accept that. After all, we wouldn't want to hold people to the same standards or anything. Much easier to engage in collectivist garbage, pat them on the back for things that they're born with and can't change.

Oh, you're one of those who I point to actual behavior and then just makes weird assumptions back. Show me where I've ever said anything positive about Amy Schumer.

What I don't understand about you fragile, angry men, is why you're singling out a facial animator when people keep posting to awful walking animations. Is it that you can't find a woman to blame those walking animations on? Even KotakuInAction is calling this a horrific, misogynist witchhunt. MA, when you're even further into the red pill than KiA...
 
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http://www.hydrahead.com
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21. No subject Mar 19, 2017, 20:52 Mashiki Amiketo
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 19, 2017, 19:21:
Likewise. You never get involved unless it's a woman or someone saying nice things about women.
Really? You seem pretty upset still. Maybe you should go cheer on Amy Schumer and complain that her dismal ratings are because of the "alt-right/sexism/racism/misogyny" instead of her just being shit and unable to accept that. After all, we wouldn't want to hold people to the same standards or anything. Much easier to engage in collectivist garbage, pat them on the back for things that they're born with and can't change.
 
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and it is always wrong."
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