ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction

ZeniMax Media has filed for an injunction to remove Oculus virtual reality products from sale that use their code, reports GamesIndustry.biz. This is a follow-up to ZeniMax's recent court victory over copyright infringement and related charges related to code created by John Carmack, formerly of ZeniMax subsidiary id Software. Word is:
This injunction specifically relates to lines of code used by developers creating software for Oculus Rift and Samsung Gear VR. If the injunction takes effect, it will have an impact on which games can be sold for those devices.

A spokeswoman for Oculus, Tera Randall, stated that the company is appealing the original verdict, describing it as, "legally flawed and factually unwarranted."
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32.
 
Re: On Sale
Feb 26, 2017, 20:07
Kxmode
 
32.
Re: On Sale Feb 26, 2017, 20:07
Feb 26, 2017, 20:07
 Kxmode
 
wtf_man wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 17:36:
I think they're just pissed that after they bought iD, probably one of the main reasons they bought iD (Carmack), left the company.

Yup! They don't own Carmack. They probably feel they own the sum of his knowledge because he obtained the majority of it at id. They can't own a person's experience, and they sure can't own how someone writes their code.

I'm going to officially refer to this company as ZanyMax; an apt nickname if ever there was one!
"...and in stonks, Fizzy Squeezy Stocklebocks leaped over Droopy Whoopy Bondfluffs, hitting 300-gigglebits to their 150-snorebucks. Meanwhile, in Whimsyland's market, the pancakes reached parity with pogo sticks."
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31.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 26, 2017, 16:18
31.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 26, 2017, 16:18
Feb 26, 2017, 16:18
 
No comment. I'm way too biased when it comes to anything Carmack, always a bit star-struck when he's mentioned.
Don't like my post? Submit a complaint
30.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 26, 2017, 03:58
30.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 26, 2017, 03:58
Feb 26, 2017, 03:58
 
Verno wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 21:39:
It's a shame this kind of crap just interferes with adoption of new tech. VR will never get off the ground with this kind of nonsense going on.

It was probably inevitable, but yep, this isn't helping.
”Not many people know I owned the first radio in Springfield. Weren’t much on the air then. Just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. “A,” he’d say. Then “B.” “C” would usually follow."
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29.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 26, 2017, 02:14
29.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 26, 2017, 02:14
Feb 26, 2017, 02:14
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 15:25:
And Trumps brother is part of the board You can't make this shit up that's how absurd it is. It's not just nepotism, it's elitist class-focused scumbags pushing each other into jobs where they don't belong. Creating in essence a caste system

I hope Robert Trump doesn't know that Robert Altman donated to Hillary...
28.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 22:02
28.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 22:02
Feb 25, 2017, 22:02
 
More corporate douchebaggery from Zenimax..

Gigantic shitbag of a company.
Avatar 33180
27.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 21:39
27.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 21:39
Feb 25, 2017, 21:39
 
It's a shame this kind of crap just interferes with adoption of new tech. VR will never get off the ground with this kind of nonsense going on.
Avatar 51617
26.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 18:40
26.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 18:40
Feb 25, 2017, 18:40
 
wtf_man wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 17:36:
I don't think it's nepotism.

Throwing out a guess... Ms Carter is probably just supporting her husband and his business with some free, or low cost (getting paid way less than someone like Patric Stewart for 3 lines in a game) voice acting, and some marketing for the games based on her small bit of fame.

That said... my point was more about Mr. Altman being an Attorney, himself. That is probably why the company is so quick to litigate EVERYTHING.

Oh... and they don't need any money from Facebook, especially after Skyrim sales.

I think they're just pissed that after they bought iD, probably one of the main reasons they bought iD (Carmack), left the company.

Then it's a good thing he's there.
Half a Billion of a good thing to be exact, with more to come probably.

Zenimax is very lucky to have a smart lawyer like Mr. Altman on the payroll. Plus the added ability to hire triple AAA talent like Lynda Carter for voice work.
That's what I call a win win combination.

"I expect death to be nothingness and by removing from me all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." Isaac Asimov
Avatar 58135
25.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 17:36
25.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 17:36
Feb 25, 2017, 17:36
 
I don't think it's nepotism.

Throwing out a guess... Ms Carter is probably just supporting her husband and his business with some free, or low cost (getting paid way less than someone like Patric Stewart for 3 lines in a game) voice acting, and some marketing for the games based on her small bit of fame.

That said... my point was more about Mr. Altman being an Attorney, himself. That is probably why the company is so quick to litigate EVERYTHING.

Oh... and they don't need any money from Facebook, especially after Skyrim sales.

I think they're just pissed that after they bought iD, probably one of the main reasons they bought iD (Carmack), left the company.
Get your games from GOG DAMMIT!
Avatar 19499
24.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 17:11
24.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 17:11
Feb 25, 2017, 17:11
 
Dev wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 15:51:
Dacote wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 15:29:
eRe4s3r wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 15:25:
And Trumps brother is part of the board You can't make this shit up that's how absurd it is. It's not just nepotism, it's elitist class-focused scumbags pushing each other into jobs where they don't belong. Creating in essence a caste system

Jimmy Hoffa is a silent partner. Creating in nonsense a casket-less system. spooky
Actually, he is. I googled before posting sarcastic replies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZeniMax_Media
ZeniMax's Board of Directors consists of eight individuals:
[...]
Robert S. Trump (President, Trump Management, Inc.)

Edit:
Also
https://www.zenimax.com/about

Although to me, it's just as interesting that the board of directors includes people like:
Jerry Bruckheimer
Leslie Moonves

Heh, I thought this was well known... It's one of the reason I harbor a subconscious dislike for Zenimaxx for a few decades now... but it also just so happens that they, sometimes, make pay for great games.
Avatar 54727
23.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 15:51
23.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 15:51
Feb 25, 2017, 15:51
 
Dev wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 15:51:
Dacote wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 15:29:
eRe4s3r wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 15:25:
And Trumps brother is part of the board You can't make this shit up that's how absurd it is. It's not just nepotism, it's elitist class-focused scumbags pushing each other into jobs where they don't belong. Creating in essence a caste system

Jimmy Hoffa is a silent partner. Creating in nonsense a casket-less system. spooky
Actually, he is. I googled before posting sarcastic replies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZeniMax_Media
ZeniMax's Board of Directors consists of eight individuals:
[...]
Robert S. Trump (President, Trump Management, Inc.)
yippee
22.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 15:51
Dev
22.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 15:51
Feb 25, 2017, 15:51
Dev
 
Dacote wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 15:29:
eRe4s3r wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 15:25:
And Trumps brother is part of the board You can't make this shit up that's how absurd it is. It's not just nepotism, it's elitist class-focused scumbags pushing each other into jobs where they don't belong. Creating in essence a caste system

Jimmy Hoffa is a silent partner. Creating in nonsense a casket-less system. spooky
Actually, he is. I googled before posting sarcastic replies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZeniMax_Media
ZeniMax's Board of Directors consists of eight individuals:
[...]
Robert S. Trump (President, Trump Management, Inc.)

Edit:
Also
https://www.zenimax.com/about

Although to me, it's just as interesting that the board of directors includes people like:
Jerry Bruckheimer
Leslie Moonves
21.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 15:29
21.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 15:29
Feb 25, 2017, 15:29
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 15:25:
RedEye9 wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 11:04:
wtf_man wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 10:43:
You all know the reason that Zenimax is so quick to litigate, Right?

Lynda Carter's husband, Robert Altman, is a partner / one of the head honchos at Zenimax and he is an Attorney. This is also why they get Lynda to do Voice Acting in their games.

Nepotism! Ucrazy

I just knew it! Bigcry


And Trumps brother is part of the board You can't make this shit up that's how absurd it is. It's not just nepotism, it's elitist class-focused scumbags pushing each other into jobs where they don't belong. Creating in essence a caste system

Jimmy Hoffa is a silent partner. Creating in nonsense a casket-less system. spooky
20.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 15:25
20.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 15:25
Feb 25, 2017, 15:25
 
RedEye9 wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 11:04:
wtf_man wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 10:43:
You all know the reason that Zenimax is so quick to litigate, Right?

Lynda Carter's husband, Robert Altman, is a partner / one of the head honchos at Zenimax and he is an Attorney. This is also why they get Lynda to do Voice Acting in their games.

Nepotism! Ucrazy

I just knew it! Bigcry


And Trumps brother is part of the board You can't make this shit up that's how absurd it is. It's not just nepotism, it's elitist class-focused scumbags pushing each other into jobs where they don't belong. Creating in essence a caste system
Avatar 54727
19.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 11:04
19.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 11:04
Feb 25, 2017, 11:04
 
wtf_man wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 10:43:
You all know the reason that Zenimax is so quick to litigate, Right?

Lynda Carter's husband, Robert Altman, is a partner / one of the head honchos at Zenimax and he is an Attorney. This is also why they get Lynda to do Voice Acting in their games.

Nepotism! Ucrazy

I just knew it! Bigcry

"I expect death to be nothingness and by removing from me all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." Isaac Asimov
Avatar 58135
18.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 10:43
18.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 10:43
Feb 25, 2017, 10:43
 
You all know the reason that Zenimax is so quick to litigate, Right?

Lynda Carter's husband, Robert Altman, is a partner / one of the head honchos at Zenimax and he is an Attorney. This is also why they get Lynda to do Voice Acting in their games.
Get your games from GOG DAMMIT!
Avatar 19499
17.
 
Re: On Sale
Feb 25, 2017, 09:35
Kxmode
 
17.
Re: On Sale Feb 25, 2017, 09:35
Feb 25, 2017, 09:35
 Kxmode
 
Saboth wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 08:45:
Yeah, I never understood how someone can claim bits of code. It's nothing but another language. It's like a book company suing another book company because an author wrote '"You've got to be kidding me," he said."' in another book. There's only so many ways to write something. You've got to use the same function calls and syntax no matter where you work. Now, if Oculus had thousands of lines of exact code that was obviously copied and pasted out of programs he wrote for someone else, I could maybe see making a case of it. But a programmer is going to code the same way no matter where he works.

Seriously! Right! This is Spanish Inquisition level crap.

"Do you confess to stealing our engine?! Confess! Confess!"
"Confess? You mean to the way I've been writing my code for the last 22 years at id?!"
"HERETIC! SUE HIM TO THE STATE... court."
"Are you brain-dead? You can't sue me for how I create my code. I own that knowledge."

This kind of nonsense forces programmers to change the way they do their work at each new job otherwise there is real potential for former employers to come after them. Any hint of similarity and the developer could be looking at a lawsuit by Freakasaurus Software simply because a few snippets of code looks like their stuff. And the developer would likely lose because the judge in the case has about as much experience as a grapefruit when it comes to programming.

I feel like these sorts of cases should have landmark cases. Further, technology cases are complicated. You can't try them in the regular court system. There should be a different courtroom set up to properly handle technology case by judges who have backgrounds in development and (or) programmer; and if the judges have Ph.D.s in computer science, that's better.

TLDR, how a developer writes their code has zero bearing on whether or not they stole proprietary technology.

Sorry to sound miffed but this bothers me because what happens if I wanted to create something, and I develop it the way I've done in the past. One of the former employees gets a hold of my code, and decide to sue because they believe my code looks very close to their proprietary system. Worse, I would lose because even if could afford a lawyer (which I can't), my case would go before a boneheaded judge who likely has no idea how to work their computers, or even what the initials P.C. mean.

I hope a case like this can come before the Supreme Court to get an answer:
1. Do developers have the right to own their knowledge and how they write their code regardless of whether or not the code share similarities with existing proprietary systems?
2. Is code protected under freedom of speech much like other forms of writings are?

This comment was edited on Feb 25, 2017, 10:04.
"...and in stonks, Fizzy Squeezy Stocklebocks leaped over Droopy Whoopy Bondfluffs, hitting 300-gigglebits to their 150-snorebucks. Meanwhile, in Whimsyland's market, the pancakes reached parity with pogo sticks."
Avatar 18786
16.
 
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction
Feb 25, 2017, 09:28
16.
Re: ZeniMax Seeks Rift Injunction Feb 25, 2017, 09:28
Feb 25, 2017, 09:28
 
Wow. Way to go tech industry. With all the in-fighting and faux pas so far, VR is probably like this to the rest of the world.... https://youtu.be/3yGiiU8_gnE?t=200

...Slow Clap...
15.
 
Re: On Sale
Feb 25, 2017, 08:45
15.
Re: On Sale Feb 25, 2017, 08:45
Feb 25, 2017, 08:45
 
Kxmode wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 02:59:
I do not know the nitty-gritty details of the overall case, but from a cursory review, Zenimax's accusations are flimsy. Their primary charge is that John Carmack willfully stole id's C++ VR source and then repurposed it for Rift development; which is all kinds of level of stupid.

That kind of accusation does not work on Carmack because his name is at the top of a small list of game developers who invented the FPS genre. He (not Bethesda; not ZaniMax) figured out HOW to create 3D environments for gaming. John began and ended his gaming career at id. For 22 years he iterated upon his knowledge of 3D engine development and his style for programming. How he wrote his code became indistinguishable from the system itself. So when John took the job at Oculus, and they needed a 3D VR engine, Carmack's engine would share similarities with id's C++ VR.

ZeniMax is trying to separate the MAN from the CODE. In John's case, they are mutually inclusive. He cannot change the way he writes his code much like a musician fundamentally cannot change how they get inspired to create music. So this establishes a precedent that shows there's a clear difference between accusing a programmer of ACTUALLY stealing proprietary code (e.g. download from id's servers to repurpose) versus writing code from scratch and the results look very similar to another company's proprietary system. Bottomline, ZeniMax is conflating based on innuendo and conjecture. (e.g. "tinfoil hat society")

The bigger problem is this legal battle took place in a courtroom with decision makers who have no experience with the subject matter they must judge. This is Ted Stevens' "Series of Tubes" and "the Internet is not a dump truck" levels of ignorance. Imagine a judge ruling on a case involving patent infringement against "the probability of the Yukawa potential in the relationship between quantum physics and thermodynamics in the realm of string theory." The judge would be like, "Can I please just check my email and play some Candy Crush?"

The point is the judicial system is not technologists. They do not speak the same language. So how can they possibly be the right choice to understand all the required tribal knowledge and nomenclature of developer and programmer talk to reach a wise conclusion? This fact frustrated Carmack when his appropriately justified rant on Facebook shows he apparently wanted to school the prosecutor's "expert" witness but could not because the people in court could not understand Carmack's points.

As a Web UX developer, thinking back on my 19 years in the IT industry and knowing how professionals create signature patterns in their career (myself included), ZeniMax is wrong with their accusations. However, it does not matter because apparently, ZaniMax had better lawyers who spoke the judge's language better -- something Carmack could not.

Sorry, guys. This topic makes me sad.

Yeah, I never understood how someone can claim bits of code. It's nothing but another language. It's like a book company suing another book company because an author wrote '"You've got to be kidding me," he said."' in another book. There's only so many ways to write something. You've got to use the same function calls and syntax no matter where you work. Now, if Oculus had thousands of lines of exact code that was obviously copied and pasted out of programs he wrote for someone else, I could maybe see making a case of it. But a programmer is going to code the same way no matter where he works.
14.
 
Re: On Sale
Feb 25, 2017, 08:43
Kxmode
 
14.
Re: On Sale Feb 25, 2017, 08:43
Feb 25, 2017, 08:43
 Kxmode
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 05:31:
Kxmode wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 03:24:
44 % 2 = 22 0.88

^ fixed

Is that the formula for the flux capacitor?
"...and in stonks, Fizzy Squeezy Stocklebocks leaped over Droopy Whoopy Bondfluffs, hitting 300-gigglebits to their 150-snorebucks. Meanwhile, in Whimsyland's market, the pancakes reached parity with pogo sticks."
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13.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Feb 25, 2017, 07:41
Tom
13.
Re: Morning Mobilization Feb 25, 2017, 07:41
Feb 25, 2017, 07:41
Tom
 
VaranDragon wrote on Feb 25, 2017, 02:57:
Didn't I read that Facebook will appeal the original ruling? Carmack certainly believes that he did not do anything wrong.
How can you be certain of what Carmack believes? What he believes and what he wants others to believe aren't necessarily the same.
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