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Out of the Blue

Free Charles Oakley: Someone Save Knicks Fans, Too. There's no saving us, since you can't fire the owner. The only difference between Charles Oakley and every other Knicks fan is the cash to buy that seat, but any one of us would have jumped at the opportunity to sit there explain to James Dolan that he is the biggest idiot owner in the NBA. Sadly, nothing will change, since they sell tons of tickets no matter how badly they stink up the world's most famous arena. It's a really sad state of affairs.

Hoop Links: Thanks Ant and Acleacius.
Play: Midnight Hunter.
Media: LEGO BATMAN (Honest Game Trailers).
UnderWatched Ep 5 Valentine's Day Special.
Will Arnett- LEGO Batman Toy Shop Prank. Thanks nin.
Action...Avengers: Infinity War. Thanks Hypothermia.
Follow-up: Cleaner Robot Pulled From Fukushima Reactor Due to Immense Radiation. Thanks Tom.

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66 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 1.
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66. Re: On Sale Feb 16, 2017, 16:04 RedEye9
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Feb 14, 2017, 08:38:
Kxmode wrote on Feb 14, 2017, 01:20:
Conversely, if an atom has split the result is a nuclear explosion, which is what makes up most stars in the known universe.
Sorry can't let this go by... this is exactly backward. Stars create energy through nuclear fusion, normally hydrogen atoms into helium atoms although late in the star's life other atoms are created.
All of it is organized. All of it is logical. There is math behind it all. The only conclusion I can come up with is none of it is random, and it must have had a powerful intelligence behind it. The universe and everything in it provide the evidence that God exists even though I cannot see him because "[God's] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward."
So your argument appears to come down to, since things are logical there must be an intelligence behind it. This is not good logic. Many of the things you mentioned have been explained, some haven't. Certainly we don't seem to be close to understanding the nature of Dark Matter or Dark Energy. Although support for Dark Matter being composed of WIMPs seems to be growing.

I agree our situation here on Earth seems overly lucky. The right distance from the galactic center, the right distance from our star, having a single large satellite to stabilize our tilt and rotation. However it makes more sense to me we are here because of those conditions. Not to say, we can't be that lucky someone or something had to have helped. You offer no evidence. You are simply stating interesting scientific information some of which we have very good explanations for, and some of which we have less explanation for.
I am sticking with a sky wizard having a zombie son. Now that's logic.
 
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65. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 14, 2017, 12:32 BobBob
 
I enjoy his posts. Thumbsup  
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64. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 14, 2017, 08:41 Mr. Tact
 
jdreyer wrote on Feb 14, 2017, 03:58:
KX, love you man, but the more you explain, the more it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself, not us.
Yes. Well said.
 
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63. Re: On Sale Feb 14, 2017, 08:38 Mr. Tact
 
Kxmode wrote on Feb 14, 2017, 01:20:
Conversely, if an atom has split the result is a nuclear explosion, which is what makes up most stars in the known universe.
Sorry can't let this go by... this is exactly backward. Stars create energy through nuclear fusion, normally hydrogen atoms into helium atoms although late in the star's life other atoms are created.
All of it is organized. All of it is logical. There is math behind it all. The only conclusion I can come up with is none of it is random, and it must have had a powerful intelligence behind it. The universe and everything in it provide the evidence that God exists even though I cannot see him because "[God's] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward."
So your argument appears to come down to, since things are logical there must be an intelligence behind it. This is not good logic. Many of the things you mentioned have been explained, some haven't. Certainly we don't seem to be close to understanding the nature of Dark Matter or Dark Energy. Although support for Dark Matter being composed of WIMPs seems to be growing.

I agree our situation here on Earth seems overly lucky. The right distance from the galactic center, the right distance from our star, having a single large satellite to stabilize our tilt and rotation. However it makes more sense to me we are here because of those conditions. Not to say, we can't be that lucky someone or something had to have helped. You offer no evidence. You are simply stating interesting scientific information some of which we have very good explanations for, and some of which we have less explanation for.
 
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62. Re: On Sale Feb 14, 2017, 06:43 Xirgu
 
wow, nice discussion, shame i missed it
just like to add two little things on the faith vs belief.. the VAST majority of people do not understand science, and have a rather intense "belief" structure in science, its kind of a religion for most people, and feel personally attacked if anything in there is questioned, when that is supposed to be the basis of science. scientists are often guilty of this as well, even automatically disregarding fellow scientists when their views differ from " the established"

A little imho on this comment " this chart looks like C# code to me. It is incredibly organized into "namespaces" and "classes" that can be mixed and matched to get different results. How is that not made? I would never think a programming language like C# just came about by chance. "
.. I would say remember you are not looking at reality, you are looking at our (mathematical) interpretation of it, devised to make sense to us, of course it is going to be organised, because otherwise the model would be useless to us.
to make my point here is an example: everyone knows the planets orbit around the sun right? and this is so elegant and nice.

now think about two balls , one orbiting the other, look at it from the point of view of the other and you will see who orbits who depends on which point you choose to observe from. same applies when there are more balls present.
therefore you can say the center of the solar system is the earth of even the moon if you like, for "reality" it is irrelevant if the centre of the solar system is a dot somewhere inside the sun or inside the earth or wherever and it is just as true. however the guy calculating planetary positions is left with weird intersecting ellipses instead of almost circles and has a lot more work so why not think of it as a circle with the sun at its centre?
so we CHOOSE to see it as a circle ( ellipsoid) because then we can use easier math this way.
does it mean in reality the orbits are designed thus? the question is meaningless.

we choose the formulas we use, because we can easily use them to build things/test theorems etc that is one of the cornerstones of science. it deals with the "how" of things, not the " why".
seeing patterns in the rules and models we choose to apply can be indicative of hidden patterns in reality but this does not have to be the case.

a purely personal point of view is that evidence of planning/system in creation is often seen in living beings.. with critters like bombardeer beetles the evolutive advantage of having half the system seems null and the chances of this defense evolving in one purely random mutation stretches belief imho.
 
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61. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 14, 2017, 05:41 Redmask
 
Oh boy, the 'logical pattern' argument. How unique and special, never heard that one before.

What you believe in is mathematics and physics, not a book. Faith indeed Rolleyes

All of that shit and this is what we end up with. You were playing for attention, what a waste of time.
 
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60. Re: On Sale Feb 14, 2017, 05:07 VaranDragon
 
Kxmode wrote on Feb 14, 2017, 01:20:

Apologies for the length. A lot to convey. Wacko

KUDOS on trying but none of what you wrote there provides evidence for the existence of A God. Is it evidence for the existence of life on earth? Sure. Yeah, we are the evidence. I think, therefore I am.

The only reason why it doesn't seem random and seems unique is because we have no idea of any other system or form of life. We know about earth. We THINK that we are special, unique. That's becuase we evolved to prosper in the conditions that have arisen. Does that mean that life elsewhere did NOT evolve to some other conditions that are prevalent there? We don't know. But it's stupid and arrogant to think that the universe is perfect for us. It's not. It's relatively stable, which is why we can evolve to keep pace with our environment, but thousands of speices are still going extinct because of changing conditions. So even the Earth is a pretty fucked up place to live, and the "goldilocks zone" is just an illusion we have created out of our arrogance and short sightedness.
 
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59. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 14, 2017, 03:58 jdreyer
 
KX, love you man, but the more you explain, the more it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself, not us.

 
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58. Re: On Sale Feb 14, 2017, 02:40 BobBob
 
jdreyer wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 22:44:
BobBob wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 17:05:
jdreyer wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 16:17:
BobBob wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 11:20:
Belief in reality requires a fundamental leap of faith.

Jump out a third story window and get back to me on that.

Parachute, net, bungee cable.

Is faith in reality really required then?

Open, catch, recoil.
 
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57. Re: On Sale Feb 14, 2017, 01:20 Kxmode
 
Sorry for the long reply. I completely understand if you want to skip it.

Mr. Tact wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 17:42:
So, what are the objects of your faith and beliefs it would have merit to attack? The bible?

I went back and reread a lot of this topic and I have to say, I'm not sure how we got here. If the discussion is the idea of believing in a "God" there isn't much to attack other than the belief. Did you watch the Ricky Gervais video? He really does hit the nail on the head.

Quboid wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 17:09:
I see Colbert and BobBob's point about faith in science/reality. I haven't personally checked the maths behind E=mc^2 but I believe it to be true because I have faith in the scientific community to get most things right, and to deal with mistakes in a sensible manner. I have faith, but I don't have blind faith because I could check the maths and I have done for many other formulae. No one tells me I shouldn't ask questions, that science works in mysterious ways, or that I need to get past a paywall to learn what Xenu thinks of my Thetan.

I'm being pedantic because I agree with this in spirit, but I don't think that's strictly true. Our understanding of science is sometimes wrong and different errors would occur in the new science books.

I have to say occasionally you guys surprise me. This is very informative.

I believe we are all intelligent. I believe it is safe to conclude all of us have beliefs we base on the pieces of evidence we have observed and studied. E=MC^2 is a perfect example. Einstein proposed it, but it took 103 years to prove. Think about how many scientists put their belief and faith in that formula even though it wasn't scientific fact, yet.

While most people base their beliefs and faith in science, I base mine on history and science, through the prism of the Bible. If that sounds odd, hear me out. When I was young, my parents constantly told me, "Make the truth your own." In other words, don't believe what we say, prove to yourself that it is true, otherwise find the truth. That is what I did. I have studied just about every major religion. I say major because there are over 4,000 worldwide. So I focused on the majors: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. I also looked into Atheism and Agnosticism in the sense of questioning God's existence.

The questions I used were simple. Can the universe tell me if there is a God, and if so how?

Of all the religions I studied only Judaism, Christianity, and Islam offered evidence. However, I wanted to know more. So I studied each in depth or as much time as I could spare. Of the three Christianity appeared to offer more evidence than the other two. Islam did talk about many things, but I found it confusing because I felt like someone suffering from a bad case of attention deficit disorder wrote the Quran. Surah chapter 72, called "The Jinn" is a perfect example of a section that describes creatures not found anywhere in the Bible, and won't because Jinns are supernatural beings. The word Genie comes from Jinn (as in Aladdin and the Genie). According to the Bible, such things would be classified as pagan fables and are not real. Judaism offered tiny since most of the religion is based on the Torah consisting of three law books and two history books about the birth of the nation of Israel. Restricting myself to the first five books of the Bible just seemed "small" for my needs.

So can the Bible tell me if the universe shows evidence of God, and if so how?

The first part I looked at is the layout, form, and design of it. Nothing is more evident that there is a designer than technology like cameras, computers, and iPhones. The reasonable conclusion is anything "made" has some intelligence behind it. A created thing can not be random or chaotic. There were several things I wanted to look at specifically:

1. The Universe
2. Galaxies
3. Atoms
4. The Earth
5. Organization

In describing the universe, David wrote at Psalms 19:1, "The heavens are declaring the glory of God; The skies above proclaim the work of his hands." Moreover, at Romans 1:20 Paul writes, "[God's] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward because they are perceived by the things made." Keep in mind neither of these men had any formal training in astronomy or science. David was a sheep shepherd before a King and Paul, then known as Saul, was educated to become a Pharasiee before a minister. However, there is One above who does know these things because he made them. For the same reason, Jehovah inspired the prophet Isaiah to write down the shape of the earth, calling it a circle hundreds of years before Greek philosophy began to discuss the spherical earth. (Isaiah 40:22)

Scientists are still trying to figure out what dark matter is. However, the visible universe is made up of atoms with each serving a different purpose. However, they do not operate alone and in a vacuum. When combined, the results can be varied. For example, if two atoms of an element bind together this creates oxygen. If one part oxygen combines with two parts hydrogen, you get water. Conversely, if an atom has split the result is a nuclear explosion, which is what makes up most stars in the known universe. All of this comes from a very organized periodic table of elements; the "invisible qualities" that makes the known universe possible. As a Web Developer and C# Programmer, this chart looks like C# code to me. It is incredibly organized into "namespaces" and "classes" that can be mixed and matched to get different results. How is that not made? I would never think a programming language like C# just came about by chance.

As far as why the universe has such organization, notice what Brian Greene, American theoretical physicist, said at a TED talk in 2008.

"When we look around the world, as scientists have done for the last hundred years, there appear to be about 20 numbers that really describe our universe. These are numbers like the mass of particles like electrons and quarks, the strength of gravity, the strength of the electromagnetic force. A list of about 20 numbers that have been measured with incredible precision but nobody has an explanation for why the numbers have the particular values that they do. Now, does string theory offer an answer? Not yet, but we believe the answer for why those numbers have those values they do may rely on the form of the extra dimensions and the wonderful thing is if those numbers had any other values than the known ones the universe as we know it wouldn't exist. This is a deep question. Why are those numbers so finely tuned to allows stars to shine and planets to form when we recognize that when we fiddle with those numbers - if I had 20 dials up here and I let you come up here and fiddle with them, almost any fiddling makes the universe disappear." Math cannot lie. God's "invisible qualities."

Next, I looked at the galaxies. Why are all the galaxies oval in shape? Why not random patterns like snowflakes? One word: gravity. Gravity is the glue that holds everything together from the molecular to the massive. Even our own solar system as a gravity field comprised of a termination shock, heliopause, hydrogen wall, and a bow shockwave. Without that, a star's planetoid bodies would be subjected to interstellar gasses and solar winds. The Earth has a satellite to control our tilts and keep us anchored in a proper orbit with the sun. Moreover, the spiral patterns of the galaxy create a form of centrifugal force that helps keep all systems in relative place.

Just like our system has a habitable zone where life can flourish, most galaxies have a habitable zone. If our system were too far away from the galactic core, there would be a lack of chemical elements to support life. Conversely, too close and our planet would be bombarded with potentially lethal radiation and worse. Virtually every object in the universe emits a magnetic field. However, the earth is unique in that as far as I know only our planet has both a magnetic field and an atmosphere. The magnetic field protects us from the full intensity of cosmic radiation, while the atmosphere (made up of a blanket of gasses) helps us breathe. Our atmosphere also forms a thin layer called ozone that absorbs 99% of all incoming ultraviolet radiation. Without ozone, everything on earth would burn. However, what is most exciting about the ozone layer is that the amount of it is not fixed. Rather, it changes and grows as the intensity of UV radiation rises. How in the world does the ozone dynamically adjust itself to increased ultraviolet radiation from the sun and the cosmos?

None of this even begin to touch things like the same Fibonacci sequence found in the shell of a Nautilus can also be seen at the scale of a galaxy. Alternatively, why the earth has such a perfect water cycle that sustains all life. Alternatively, why water is one of only a few chemicals that can exist in a gas, a solid, or liquid form. None of this can be random.

All of it is organized. All of it is logical. There is math behind it all. The only conclusion I can come up with is none of it is random, and it must have had a powerful intelligence behind it. The universe and everything in it provide the evidence that God exists even though I cannot see him because "[God's] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward."

However, the TLDR is simply to say this is my point of view based on the evidence I have studied. It is not based on blind faith, but on visible evidence in precisely the way scientists comes to their conclusions. I am not trying to convert anyone to my beliefs. Just providing the level of detail and scope of my studies so you do not think I am a "blind Xtian." Everyone may disagree with my conclusions, but cannot disagree with the level of research I put forth.

Apologies for the length. A lot to convey. Wacko
 
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56. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 13, 2017, 23:12 Redmask
 
Attention whore syndrome spotted.  
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55. Re: On Sale Feb 13, 2017, 22:44 jdreyer
 
BobBob wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 17:05:
jdreyer wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 16:17:
BobBob wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 11:20:
Belief in reality requires a fundamental leap of faith.

Jump out a third story window and get back to me on that.

Parachute, net, bungee cable.

Is faith in reality really required then?
 
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54. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 13, 2017, 18:31 BobBob
 
I'd like to share that electric bikes are not bicycles. So get that monstrosity out of my bike lane!

Just back from a 25 mile bicycle ride .. shorts, tshirt, and full sunshine in the mid 70s.
 
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53. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 13, 2017, 17:42 Mr. Tact
 
Kxmode wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 17:06:
Mr. Tact wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 00:56:
Kxmode wrote on Feb 11, 2017, 23:09:
This is a personal attack on my faith and beliefs and has nothing to do with the bible or Christianity.
"faith and beliefs".. that's the problem. When your argument is based on faith and beliefs, you have no argument. You can have faith and belief in the tooth fairy if you want. And while you are free to believe whatever you desire, and in the US have freedom to speak about it, it doesn't provide any validity to your beliefs other than establishing the existence of those beliefs.

You do not understand the point. Faith and belief is a part of what makes a person who they are, and it is not just religious in nature. For example, you have "faith and belief" the sun will rise. Why? Well, apparently because the evidence shows it will. People have "faith and hope" that their efforts of saving for retirement will lead to a relatively comfortable life. Decades of examples of people who have achieved this goal would demonstrate this to be so.

On the other hand, the Bible and Christianity are objects of someone's faith and beliefs. That is the difference. Personally attacking someone's faith and belief instead of the objects of them has no merit in a logical discussion. While they are mutually inclusion, they are also separate. I really hope you understand the difference.
So, what are the objects of your faith and beliefs it would have merit to attack? The bible?

I went back and reread a lot of this topic and I have to say, I'm not sure how we got here. If the discussion is the idea of believing in a "God" there isn't much to attack other than the belief. Did you watch the Ricky Gervais video? He really does hit the nail on the head.
 
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52. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 13, 2017, 17:15 Beamer
 
While an exodus may have happened, there was no parting of seas. No coming down from the mountain with Ten Commandments.

 
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51. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 13, 2017, 17:09 Quboid
 
I see Colbert and BobBob's point about faith in science/reality. I haven't personally checked the maths behind E=mc^2 but I believe it to be true because I have faith in the scientific community to get most things right, and to deal with mistakes in a sensible manner. I have faith, but I don't have blind faith because I could check the maths and I have done for many other formulae. No one tells me I shouldn't ask questions, that science works in mysterious ways, or that I need to get past a paywall to learn what Xenu thinks of my Thetan.

descender wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 14:09:
In the end, we only deny the existence of one more god than you do.

If you destroyed every holy book in the world and waited a thousand years they wouldn't all come back and be exactly the same. If you destroyed every bit of science we have and waited a thousand years it would all come back exactly the same.

I love this clip. It has to be one of the more concise arguments I've seen highlighting the absurdity of believing in any particular religion.

I'm being pedantic because I agree with this in spirit, but I don't think that's strictly true. Our understanding of science is sometimes wrong and different errors would occur in the new science books.
 
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50. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 13, 2017, 17:06 Kxmode
 
Warning, big reply incoming. Hopefully, it sounds as respectful as possible. And apologies for the length.

jdreyer wrote on Feb 12, 2017, 08:01:
Kxmode wrote on Feb 12, 2017, 01:14:
Or what it does is similar to people who mention their degrees and PhDs. Primarily it's to let those accusing me of being an ignorant "Xtian" know that when I use the Bible in my messages, it comes from decades of personal study. Just like if you have decades of automotive repair I'm going to defer to your knowledge of the subject.

I think that big difference is that politics affects everyone, while religion affects a much smaller subset and is in decline in the West and in the US.

If Trump had been chosen as pope, maybe we'd be discussing religion a bit more.

I don't know how many ways I can say I am apolitical. All Witnesses are apolitical. Unlike the vast majority of religions, we do not get involved in the politics or affairs of any nation in any way, shape, or form. There's a reason why you will never see a Jehovah's Witness run for any political office. The mingling of religion and politics turns off many people and rightfully so. I agree the blending of the two is disgusting. The Bible repeatedly condemns it. Also, it would be virtually impossible to talk about the benefits of God's Kingdom if we were to actively support a political figure. The TLDR is there's no conflict of interest with Witnesses. Other faiths cannot make that claim.

Agent-Zero wrote on Feb 12, 2017, 08:14:
of course they mean different things, but if you want to whitewash them and take it out of context then you certainly wont be talking about a "true meaning"

for the first, its an obvious indication of outright rebellion against the social order

for the second, its an obvious indication of apocalyptic judgement of those considered "unworthy" by him or his followers

the actual historical research (from what little can be gathered from cross referenced sources of ancient scribes) makes it clear that the jesus of nazareth was a rabble rouser and one of many many apocalyptic cults of the era, he was not a particularly successful one in his time compared to many other groups he co-existed with ... however as a martyr and symbol of rebellion against rome, his cult endured among the various oppressed and particularly thrived under certain propagandists such as Paul, and was eventually leveraged against these very same "oppressed people" by the Romans in the most classical subversion of all time, eventually resulting in the "Holy Roman Empire" by way of Constantine and the Council of Nicaea

With respect, neither conclusion is correct. It is almost impossible to conclude what Jesus meant from the passages quoted. You have to dig much deeper and look at the context of WHAT Jesus said, and WHERE he said it. All that said, thanks for sharing. Always interesting to read what people think about various Bible passages.

Beamer wrote on Feb 12, 2017, 09:45:
I mean, but you don't have a PhD. I'd trust a PhD in quantum physics before I trusted a guy that home studied as a hobby.

That same sort of thinking is of the kind that the chief priests thought about Peter and John. "Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary." (Acts 4:13) In other words, Peter and John were uneducated rabble according to their standards of the time. It is very haughty to claim that because someone does not have a Ph.D. that this somehow invalidates the years of study he or she did. People can spend years in a university; this does not necessarily mean they known their subject well.

Beamer wrote on Feb 12, 2017, 09:45:
Not to mention, religion is belief based, not fact based. You're coming in with the assumption that there's a big beardo in the sky and he made a virgin pregnant. I reject that, so can reject much of what else you say because it's based upon something I think is incorrect. Much like, if a guy comes to me and says I should listen to him on science because he's read a lot, and global warming isn't real, I'd cut him off there, thank him, and exit the discussion because nothing meaningful would come from it.

You are right! Many Christian religions based their tenents on traditions and customs that are not found in the Bible. However, I would recommend you look past all the noise to the Bible's message. Most of it is grounded in reality of events that did happen. For example, the Exodus account is historical. The only reason scholars and archeologists say it did not occur is they are looking in the wrong period. They base their evidence on ~1,300 BCE and the time of Ramesses II. They are off by 200-300 years. The events in Exodus occurred around 1,500 BCE. The evidence supports that period, but scholars and archeologists suppress this because it does not fit their world view of when the Exodus account SHOULD happen. It is intellectual dishonesty at an institutional level.

Redmask wrote on Feb 12, 2017, 09:52:
Sadly for you, no one cares about the bible or about your feelings for it. I know that hurts because you desperately crave the attention and approval of others but you can't have it. You act like you're owed something because you read an old book and want to pretend to be an authority figure but you're just as useless as a random blog page. You have no authority to speak about religion nor lecture anyone else on it. All that you've demonstrated is a bratty need to steer the conversation toward religion whenever possible, despite previously saying you would not do so. The craven need to tout your own authority and knowledge speaks to deep seeded insecurity that we can't help you with, you're looking for help in the wrong place.

I know. That's why my initial post in this thread quite literally had no bible quotes or Christian comments. My exact words were, "Amazing how you all keep talking about political stuff on a video game site. It's almost as silly as a Christian talking about Bible stuff on a video game site, amirite? Wacko " It was others who turned it into a "religious witch-hunt." My initial comment only pointed out the hypocrisy of stifling speech one doesn't agree with, especially in a thread call Out of the Blue. Do you not see this? I may disagree with what someone writes, but I would never tell them to go away or stop posting about a certain topic.

Mr. Tact wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 00:56:
Kxmode wrote on Feb 11, 2017, 23:09:
This is a personal attack on my faith and beliefs and has nothing to do with the bible or Christianity.
"faith and beliefs".. that's the problem. When your argument is based on faith and beliefs, you have no argument. You can have faith and belief in the tooth fairy if you want. And while you are free to believe whatever you desire, and in the US have freedom to speak about it, it doesn't provide any validity to your beliefs other than establishing the existence of those beliefs.

You do not understand the point. Faith and belief is a part of what makes a person who they are, and it is not just religious in nature. For example, you have "faith and belief" the sun will rise. Why? Well, apparently because the evidence shows it will. People have "faith and hope" that their efforts of saving for retirement will lead to a relatively comfortable life. Decades of examples of people who have achieved this goal would demonstrate this to be so.

On the other hand, the Bible and Christianity are objects of someone's faith and beliefs. That is the difference. Personally attacking someone's faith and belief instead of the objects of them has no merit in a logical discussion. While they are mutually inclusion, they are also separate. I really hope you understand the difference.

Verno wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 11:09:
Kxmode wrote on Feb 11, 2017, 23:09:
This is what I'm talking about. This is not a discussion. This is a personal attack on my faith and beliefs and has nothing to do with the bible or Christianity. That's why I was saying perhaps the best path forward is for us all not to discuss religion AND politics on a video game site. You wouldn't do it at the table during Thanksgiving (or maybe you would I don't know) I only think it would be good for everyone. So say we all?!

Why should any of us give a shit about your faith? At least when we talk about football, politics and other aspects of life there is some basis in fact. Religious discussion is endless bullshit predicated on a mountain of nonsense like yours. I will attack it as I please when you continually post about it. You can't post public statements then declare them off limits. The same way people go after my political beliefs when I post them here. This is the core problem with religion right here, it's little juveniles like you that declare it to be some unassailable part of their identity yet have no issue annoying everyone else with it constantly.

You want to talk about it? No problem, this thread is a meek example of how that's going to look every time you try on here. When you really piss people off it's going to be way worse.

I didn't bring it up. My exact and initial words in this thread were, "Amazing how you all keep talking about political stuff on a video game site. It's almost as silly as a Christian talking about Bible stuff on a video game site, amirite? Wacko " It was you and others who turned it into a "religious thing." My initial comment was an observation of the Janus-faced nature of suppressing opposing points of view, especially in a thread call Out of the Blue.

The fact that I have not gone crazy on political comments begs the question, who's more mature about handling uninterested topics? A mature and apathetic nod are more than enough for things you do not particularly care about. Flying off the handle is not kosher.

Hope this clarified things.
 
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49. Re: On Sale Feb 13, 2017, 17:05 BobBob
 
jdreyer wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 16:17:
BobBob wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 11:20:
Belief in reality requires a fundamental leap of faith.

Jump out a third story window and get back to me on that.

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48. Re: On Sale Feb 13, 2017, 16:17 jdreyer
 
BobBob wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 11:20:
Belief in reality requires a fundamental leap of faith.

Jump out a third story window and get back to me on that.
 
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47. Re: Out of the Blue Feb 13, 2017, 15:18 Mr. Tact
 
descender wrote on Feb 13, 2017, 14:09:
In the end, we only deny the existence of one more god than you do.
If you destroyed every holy book in the world and waited a thousand years they wouldn't all come back and be exactly the same. If you destroyed every bit of science we have and waited a thousand years it would all come back exactly the same.
Ha! That's great. "You don't believe in 2,999 gods, I don't believe in just one more."
 
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