Torment Stretch Goal Changes

A post to the inXile forums responds to threads on reddit and RPG Codex speculating that the stretch goals from the Torment: Tides of Numenera Kickstarter campaign were changing now that the game is gold and gearing up for release (thanks PCGamesN). There is conjecture about companions and other content being cut, and this developer post admits that some content is indeed being removed or reworked:
The companion roster has been slightly reduced from our initial plans. Throughout development on Torment, our philosophy has always emphasized depth and reactivity in our storyline and in our characters. We know you would not be satisfied with anything else. During development, we found that the more far reaching and reactive our companions were, the better they felt and the more justice it did to the original Planescape: Torment. This trade-off meant we were able to add more companion conversations, banter, voice-over, quests, and story endings. We did not want to leave some companions feeling shallow, with storylines that felt incomplete, or be forced to shove them into the late game.

That said, we certainly haven't shut the door on Torment’s development. We still have a lot of early work done on other companions and are open to continuing to work on the game. We can say that any DLCs or expansions that we put out will always be free to our backers of that game, so there is no need to worry about paying for any additional content in Torment.
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39.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 15:02
39.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 15:02
Jan 30, 2017, 15:02
 
MattyC wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 02:24:
yuastnav wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 01:52:
I have to admit, though, that I never played Planescape Torment

*GASP* You need to get on that ASAP. There are quite a few mods that help it feel more 'modern' if you need any links. Torment is absolutely worth the play.

Seconded. You REALLY should play Planescape:Torment. It's just that good.

Regarding the stretch goals, I don't really care too much about them. The main thing is that the base game has to be excellent, with great gameplay, deep characters, and an immersive and profound story.

Darks wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 15:28:
El Pit wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 14:15:
nin wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 14:12:
CJ_Parker wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 13:53:
Bwaaahahaha are they sucking ferious??? They delay da game by about two decades and then still deliver only half the shit? Sounds legit ho-humm.

Anyone else relieved you don't have to play the game with cj?


nin, please be more open minded and tolerate chaotic evil characters, too.

Umm, NO! I play Paladin Characters, and we kill Evil characters on sight. Stab

Personally, I play a Chaotic Evil character in many RPGs (and in real life), and take great pleasure in killing Good characters. Especially Paladins. Oh, and Hobbits, of course. Even if the hobbits are also Chaotic Evil.
Kittens!
Avatar 8692
38.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 13:31
38.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 13:31
Jan 30, 2017, 13:31
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 13:03:
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 11:00:
I'm still a bit disappointed that D:OS cut many Stretch Goals and I know they will be doing that again. It is one of those things of... wow we blew through the first stage, we can get a lot more upfront which is always good, what can we add? Then that whole game begins.

In defense of Larian Studios it needs to be said that they learned their fucking lesson. The D:OS II stretch goals were very modest and should quite easily be achieved and delivered.
Of course, Larian's absolutely correct conservative approach after the D:OS feature cut debacle had the averse effect that some tards were disappointed in the totally correct modesty of the stretch goals.
It's like some people were almost begging to be cheated, baited and defrauded like "OMG please give us some pie in the sky unobtainable stretch goals that you will never deliver anyway just so I can jack off over my pledge". Ummm... yeah. Whatever, man.

Are you sure? Live Dungeon Mastering is one of the tallest orders that comes with the whiniest of bitches when it doesn't do everything their heads can dream up. That is one of the most difficult adds you can ever put on a stretch goal. Then Modding... and something waaay better than DOS1 modding, that was DOA. The new mod tool at the latest has to be released day 1 to have any type of public support, pre-release much better yet. They may even struggle with other things on their list to. I'm not as bullish as you are here.

The one stretch goal they changed in DOS 1 that sounds like what is being done in Torment was the Mega-Dungeon. Larian had movies of this dungeon hyping it, it will be like a whole new game within a game. On release, no word, people complete game, no Mega-Dungeon ever found, then they answer and say, it didn't fit in and we took parts of that dungeon and created separate quests from some of those parts. Nothing we could ever really know like Torment making current individuals deeper instead of more. Was the day/night cycle a stretch? That one in general I know was a hot topic either way, too hard and time consuming.

Also what are we finding out now about DOS 2? That the current build was not taken from the EE version which had controller/split screen/added ui improvements, but instead they used an older non EE version and built DOS 2 up from there, the current build is missing very liked features that DOS 1 already has? That seems odd.

There is imo a lot of silence, slow updates, AND a lot lot lot more to show for DOS 2 to live up to. They are still trying to figure out the new combat model it seems. This will be a game like DOS 1 that has terrible game balancing that is improved over many months and patches... same ole CRPG story. Wait.

Yes that is a critical look from someone that liked DOS 1 and owns DOS 2 and likes Larian. But something so far is feeling off with DOS 2 for me.
Avatar 17232
37.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 13:03
37.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 13:03
Jan 30, 2017, 13:03
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 11:00:
I'm still a bit disappointed that D:OS cut many Stretch Goals and I know they will be doing that again. It is one of those things of... wow we blew through the first stage, we can get a lot more upfront which is always good, what can we add? Then that whole game begins.

In defense of Larian Studios it needs to be said that they learned their fucking lesson. The D:OS II stretch goals were very modest and should quite easily be achieved and delivered.
Of course, Larian's absolutely correct conservative approach after the D:OS feature cut debacle had the averse effect that some tards were disappointed in the totally correct modesty of the stretch goals.
It's like some people were almost begging to be cheated, baited and defrauded like "OMG please give us some pie in the sky unobtainable stretch goals that you will never deliver anyway just so I can jack off over my pledge". Ummm... yeah. Whatever, man.
36.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 11:07
36.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 11:07
Jan 30, 2017, 11:07
 
Creston wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 11:03:
but on the flipside, if they're saying "we cut two not very interesting companions, and made the others cooler instead"

Something we'll never really know if it is true or not.
Avatar 17232
35.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 11:03
35.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 11:03
Jan 30, 2017, 11:03
 
Eh, I think it's pretty shitty of them to not reveal their "We're not doing all the stretch goals you guys paid for" bit until right before release, but on the flipside, if they're saying "we cut two not very interesting companions, and made the others cooler instead" then I think that's probably a wash or even a win for the players.

Still looking forward to it. And they did a ton of support on Wasteland 2, so I really have no worries about them not supporting Torment.

That said, damn, this was originally supposed to come out in December 2014? I didn't even realize it had been that long ago.
Avatar 15604
34.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 11:00
34.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 11:00
Jan 30, 2017, 11:00
 
Dacote wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 19:51:
Jerykk wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 15:56:
People really need to learn what Kickstarter is. When you back a Kickstarter, you shouldn't treat it like pre-ordering a product or making an investment. Instead, you are essentially donating money to an idea. That's it. It's better to think of it like Patreon. If the idea comes to fruition, that's great but there are no guarantees. If you back a Kickstarter and expect that the release date and stretch goals are part of an ironclad contract, you've already missed the point.

People also need to learn how game development works. It isn't an exact science. Ideas that sound good on paper may not work so well in practice. Iteration leads to better games and during the process, things will be changed or cut for the better of the product as a whole. If you can't accept this, you shouldn't be Kickstarting games.
+1

Posting a sane logical argument here, how dare you.

I hope your Entitled Gaming Man Baby insurance is paid-up.

Perhaps you should brace yourself for that outcome, but I think Cutter nailed it. I'm still a bit disappointed that D:OS cut many Stretch Goals and I know they will be doing that again. It is one of those things of... wow we blew through the first stage, we can get a lot more upfront which is always good, what can we add? Then that whole game begins.
Avatar 17232
33.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 08:09
33.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 08:09
Jan 30, 2017, 08:09
 
Cutter wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 17:37:
Wrong all the way around. It is in investment and the law comes down on that side of it, as it should. It's a contract, plain and simple.

Go ahead and cite the law on that please. It should be easy because its "the law". Go ahead, we're waiting. Unless of course you're just confusing your opinion with facts, something we're all pretty used to at this point.
Avatar 57682
32.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 08:03
32.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 08:03
Jan 30, 2017, 08:03
 
Jerykk wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 15:56:
People really need to learn what Kickstarter is. When you back a Kickstarter, you shouldn't treat it like pre-ordering a product or making an investment. Instead, you are essentially donating money to an idea. That's it. It's better to think of it like Patreon. If the idea comes to fruition, that's great but there are no guarantees. If you back a Kickstarter and expect that the release date and stretch goals are part of an ironclad contract, you've already missed the point.

Honestly, I think that's backwards. Most people Kickstarting a game are basically just preordering a game (sometimes a CE version), but often VERY far out from the release. It's a bit like preordering the game after the first trailer is released when there's almost no information about what is actually going to be in the game and what is just hype and there's no solid release date.

Also, because of the realities of development, I think a lot of stretch goals end up just being bad ideas that delay a game and/or could make it worse and devs should often take the "extra" money as profit and/or apply it to an expansion or future game. The times I feel stretch goals make the most sense is when they involve getting artists for more/improved art/sound/etc or turning project members from part time to full time.
31.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 05:35
31.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 05:35
Jan 30, 2017, 05:35
 
Nucas wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 05:00:
Kosumo wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 02:44:
Coming from Jerykk, who for years was pro software piracy ..... leader of the 'I pirate it now and pay what I think it is worth when I want' brigade. i.e. let the publishers take the risk, steal the software, then, if I want, pay a minimal amount when and if I feel like it .... 'If I think it is worth it'

That was his logic then, is that still the right logic?

I like Jerykk, smart guy, has interesting views on gaming and games but please, lets not 'forget' about the years and years he justified software piracy.

this is completely irrelevant and has no bearing on his view on kickstarter; a view that is, incidentally, correct.

It is only correct for the illiterate and mentally challenged deplorables who can't even read a simple text on a Kickstarter website. inXile promised and assured people of certain shit. Shit did not happen. Fraud happened. End of story.

Come on, man. Simple as fuck, really.
30.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 05:00
30.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 05:00
Jan 30, 2017, 05:00
 
Kosumo wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 02:44:
Coming from Jerykk, who for years was pro software piracy ..... leader of the 'I pirate it now and pay what I think it is worth when I want' brigade. i.e. let the publishers take the risk, steal the software, then, if I want, pay a minimal amount when and if I feel like it .... 'If I think it is worth it'

That was his logic then, is that still the right logic?

I like Jerykk, smart guy, has interesting views on gaming and games but please, lets not 'forget' about the years and years he justified software piracy.

this is completely irrelevant and has no bearing on his view on kickstarter; a view that is, incidentally, correct.
Avatar 49584
29.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 04:54
29.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 04:54
Jan 30, 2017, 04:54
 
I like Jerykk, smart guy, has interesting views on gaming and games but please, lets not 'forget' about the years and years he justified software piracy.

Not sure how that's relevant to anything being discussed here. I don't deny that I pirated games in the past but that doesn't change the reality of how crowdfunding or game development works today. For what it's worth, I now own over 2000 games on Steam, 300+ across GOG, Uplay and Origin and have backed over 40 Kickstarter projects. If you're concerned that I haven't given my fair share to the games industry, you needn't worry.

In the past, I suggested that piracy was the only reliable way to judge games before buying them but these days, consumers have many more resources to work with. You can often watch hours of unedited gameplay footage on Youtube and Twitch and gain plenty of information from previews, reviews, interviews, AMAs, forums, Steam reviews, etc. Media coverage as a whole has increased exponentially over the last decade. In addition, the process of buying, installing and playing games is faster and easier than ever before and games are cheaper as well. Piracy is largely redundant now and difficult to justify unless you have little to no expendable income (an issue I no longer suffer from).
Avatar 20715
28.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 03:10
28.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 03:10
Jan 30, 2017, 03:10
 
Kosumo wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 02:44:
Dacote wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 19:51:
Jerykk wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 15:56:
People really need to learn what Kickstarter is. When you back a Kickstarter, you shouldn't treat it like pre-ordering a product or making an investment. Instead, you are essentially donating money to an idea. That's it. It's better to think of it like Patreon. If the idea comes to fruition, that's great but there are no guarantees. If you back a Kickstarter and expect that the release date and stretch goals are part of an ironclad contract, you've already missed the point.


People also need to learn how game development works. It isn't an exact science. Ideas that sound good on paper may not work so well in practice. Iteration leads to better games and during the process, things will be changed or cut for the better of the product as a whole. If you can't accept this, you shouldn't be Kickstarting games.
+1

Posting a sane logical argument here, how dare you.

I hope your Entitled Gaming Man Baby insurance is paid-up.

Coming from Jerykk, who for years was pro software piracy ..... leader of the 'I pirate it now and pay what I think it is worth when I want' brigade. i.e. let the publishers take the risk, steal the software, then, if I want, pay a minimal amount when and if I feel like it .... 'If I think it is worth it'

That was his logic then, is that still the right logic?

I like Jerykk, smart guy, has interesting views on gaming and games but please, lets not 'forget' about the years and years he justified software piracy.

So you agree with Jerykk but what? Needed to build a nice strawman anyway? Care for a light?
Avatar 58327
27.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 02:44
27.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 02:44
Jan 30, 2017, 02:44
 
Dacote wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 19:51:
Jerykk wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 15:56:
People really need to learn what Kickstarter is. When you back a Kickstarter, you shouldn't treat it like pre-ordering a product or making an investment. Instead, you are essentially donating money to an idea. That's it. It's better to think of it like Patreon. If the idea comes to fruition, that's great but there are no guarantees. If you back a Kickstarter and expect that the release date and stretch goals are part of an ironclad contract, you've already missed the point.


People also need to learn how game development works. It isn't an exact science. Ideas that sound good on paper may not work so well in practice. Iteration leads to better games and during the process, things will be changed or cut for the better of the product as a whole. If you can't accept this, you shouldn't be Kickstarting games.
+1

Posting a sane logical argument here, how dare you.

I hope your Entitled Gaming Man Baby insurance is paid-up.

Coming from Jerykk, who for years was pro software piracy ..... leader of the 'I pirate it now and pay what I think it is worth when I want' brigade. i.e. let the publishers take the risk, steal the software, then, if I want, pay a minimal amount when and if I feel like it .... 'If I think it is worth it'

That was his logic then, is that still the right logic?

I like Jerykk, smart guy, has interesting views on gaming and games but please, lets not 'forget' about the years and years he justified software piracy.
26.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 02:24
MattyC
 
26.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 02:24
Jan 30, 2017, 02:24
 MattyC
 
yuastnav wrote on Jan 30, 2017, 01:52:
I have to admit, though, that I never played Planescape Torment

*GASP* You need to get on that ASAP. There are quite a few mods that help it feel more 'modern' if you need any links. Torment is absolutely worth the play.
"M'aiq tried to swim out to sea, but had to turn back. Slaughterfish. Always the slaughterfish."
Avatar 39012
25.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 30, 2017, 01:52
25.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 30, 2017, 01:52
Jan 30, 2017, 01:52
 
Seems reasonable, still looking forward to the game. I like Wasteland 2 and I trust inxile to do a good job on T:ToN. I have to admit, though, that I never played Planescape Torment. I was very late to the game and only started a playthrough once but had to stop playing due to studies and unfortunately never went back to it.
24.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 29, 2017, 20:58
24.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 29, 2017, 20:58
Jan 29, 2017, 20:58
 
grudgebearer wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 20:31:
Jerykk wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 15:56:
People also need to learn how game development works. It isn't an exact science. Ideas that sound good on paper may not work so well in practice. Iteration leads to better games and during the process, things will be changed or cut for the better of the product as a whole. If you can't accept this, you shouldn't be Kickstarting games.

So, you don't have a problem with them waiting until less than a month before release, to tell backers that they in fact are not going to meet the kickstarter goals, and then only coming clean because they were called out on a reddit and had to respond?

I don't have a problem with it because I always expected things to change during development and don't need to be informed of every design decision they make. I trust in their ability to do what's best for the game. If I didn't, I wouldn't have backed it. When I back something on Kickstarter, I'm backing the general idea, not specific details. To me, Torment is a spiritual successor to PST. As such, I expect it to be a CRPG with good writing, interesting characters and interesting locations. That's it.

I guess one of the benefits of working with a publisher is that you don't have random people on the internet calling for blood every time you change anything while developing a game. The final product is never completely faithful to the original design doc and publishers understand this.

Should inXile have explained the changes to backers sooner? Sure. Communication is good. Should backers freak out and act like the game has been ruined? No, that's a silly overreaction. Crafting was always an odd choice for a stretch goal and wasn't even a part of PST, so removing it seems like a logical choice. PST was never about loot to begin with. The Bloom being bigger than Oasis could be good or bad, depending on how interesting the Bloom is. Reducing the number of companions so that they can be more fleshed out and interesting? Seems reasonable. All of these changes are relatively minor within the scope and direction of the project. It's not like inXile is turning Torment into an FPS or F2P multiplayer game.

This comment was edited on Jan 29, 2017, 21:14.
Avatar 20715
23.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 29, 2017, 20:51
Cutter
 
23.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 29, 2017, 20:51
Jan 29, 2017, 20:51
 Cutter
 
grudgebearer wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 20:31:
Did they take the time to put in a 'white knight' class for you during the years of delay?

Ok, I lol'd pretty hard at that. Nice one.
"Hot air hangs like a dead man, from a white oak tree. People sitting on porches, thinking how things used to be. It's a dark night...dark night."
Avatar 25394
22.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 29, 2017, 20:31
22.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 29, 2017, 20:31
Jan 29, 2017, 20:31
 
Jerykk wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 15:56:
People also need to learn how game development works. It isn't an exact science. Ideas that sound good on paper may not work so well in practice. Iteration leads to better games and during the process, things will be changed or cut for the better of the product as a whole. If you can't accept this, you shouldn't be Kickstarting games.

So, you don't have a problem with them waiting until less than a month before release, to tell backers that they in fact are not going to meet the kickstarter goals, and then only coming clean because they were called out on a reddit and had to respond?

Did they take the time to put in a 'white knight' class for you during the years of delay?

This comment was edited on Jan 29, 2017, 20:46.
Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishfull thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.
-Robert Heinlein
Avatar 17580
21.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 29, 2017, 19:51
21.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 29, 2017, 19:51
Jan 29, 2017, 19:51
 
Jerykk wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 15:56:
People really need to learn what Kickstarter is. When you back a Kickstarter, you shouldn't treat it like pre-ordering a product or making an investment. Instead, you are essentially donating money to an idea. That's it. It's better to think of it like Patreon. If the idea comes to fruition, that's great but there are no guarantees. If you back a Kickstarter and expect that the release date and stretch goals are part of an ironclad contract, you've already missed the point.

People also need to learn how game development works. It isn't an exact science. Ideas that sound good on paper may not work so well in practice. Iteration leads to better games and during the process, things will be changed or cut for the better of the product as a whole. If you can't accept this, you shouldn't be Kickstarting games.
+1

Posting a sane logical argument here, how dare you.

I hope your Entitled Gaming Man Baby insurance is paid-up.
20.
 
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes
Jan 29, 2017, 19:50
20.
Re: Torment Stretch Goal Changes Jan 29, 2017, 19:50
Jan 29, 2017, 19:50
 
Overon wrote on Jan 29, 2017, 17:39:
Wait for the GoTY edition with all the expansions and the script and other bugs fixed.
Resuming... Never kickstart, never pre-order.
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