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Saturday Tech Bits

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30. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 24, 2017, 12:56 Verno
 
El Pit wrote on Jan 22, 2017, 11:16:
The difference here being that while people are amused, but not IMPRESSED with VR, everyone was blown away by proper 3D (not cheap small 3D tv sets). Avatar broke new ground and became the MOST SUCCESSFUL MOVIE EVER. VR, on the other hand, has nothing to show yet. It has yet to prove its worth and is already in danger of dying off within the next two years (max). It is more niche than 3D has been.

Avatar was successful for a variety of reasons, trying to conflate its success solely with 3D tech is disingenuous. You might be really impressed with 3D but the market has largely spoken on this already and 3D is gonezo from all sets now which says it all. It's presence in movie theaters will go the way of the dodo like those rumble chairs as soon as attendance declines.
 
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29. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 23, 2017, 18:46 HorrorScope
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 23, 2017, 18:03:
Yes, but this is a forum where people buy $500+ graphics cards and build $2000 computers.

For many and I mean most, there is little difference between a cheapass laptop vs one many more times the cost. But this isn't true for all. For the rest, they buy the top of the line TV.

Personally I can measure performance of a better card and laptop. 1080P on pretty much any current HDTV is looking good. Not to be confused with a bad hdtv or older hdtv's. I have a fairly pricey one and two cheapo's, the el cheapo's holds their own, no smear as you mention to speak of, sounds old tech or extra extra special cheap.

LOL on the lyrics, batting .000 recently.
 
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28. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 23, 2017, 18:03 Beamer
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 23, 2017, 15:23:
Beamer wrote on Jan 22, 2017, 15:25:
But the TVs that have HDr aren't more expensive because of hdr. They're the flagship TVs. They have significantly better specs

I won't argue there aren't better TV's, but I think the Billy Joel song using the adage "You get the same mileage from a cheap pair of speakers". For many and I mean most, there is a little difference from a cheap ass TV vs one many more times the cost that they really care all that much about. Law of DimReturns.

Yes, but this is a forum where people buy $500+ graphics cards and build $2000 computers.

For many and I mean most, there is little difference between a cheapass laptop vs one many more times the cost. But this isn't true for all. For the rest, they buy the top of the line TV.

For the rest, wait a few years and those new bells and whistles that cost a lot to develop (and develop manufacturing techniques for and can't yet be fully scaled) will be in their TVs.

Regardless, when I was in bschool my roommate had a higher end TV. His family came to visit prior to graduation and he sent them home with a wave of his stuff, as they had an SUV. In went his TV. A neighbor across the hall brought his over for the remaining month, as I was the one with the Xbox. His was a low end TV, same size but lower end. It looked like someone had smeared Vaseline all over it, relative to the first TV. I'll never skimp on my own TV after that. The difference, to me personally, is night and day. It is to my mom, too, which is why she always asks why the TV I bought them looks nowhere near as nice as the one I bought myself. My dad, though, thinks a TV is a TV and you buy the cheapest one for the size you want.
 
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27. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 23, 2017, 15:40 nin
 


Don't waste your money on a new set of speakers,
You get more mileage from a cheap pair of sneakers


 
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26. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 23, 2017, 15:23 HorrorScope
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 22, 2017, 15:25:
But the TVs that have HDr aren't more expensive because of hdr. They're the flagship TVs. They have significantly better specs

I won't argue there aren't better TV's, but I think the Billy Joel song using the adage "You get the same mileage from a cheap pair of speakers". For many and I mean most, there is a little difference from a cheap ass TV vs one many more times the cost that they really care all that much about. Law of DimReturns.
 
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25. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 23, 2017, 15:21 HorrorScope
 
Creston wrote on Jan 22, 2017, 15:15:
Bleh, in any case, priced as it is today, HDR isn't going to sell, so the TV douchenozzle salesman who said that it has "universal appeal" is just full of shit. As he is pretty much every year.

Yep, but they'll get the whales to pay first then bring it down a fair chunk at a time, smart. This is how our VR needs to work as well to gain real acceptance.
 
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24. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 15:25 Beamer
 
But the TVs that have HDr aren't more expensive because of hdr. They're the flagship TVs. They have significantly better specs, which hdr is part of but they're better regardless. They're also thinner and more elegantly designed.

It isn't like they're taking a model, adding hdr, raising the price and calling it a day. It's just new tech solely in the flagship models. Over the next two years it'll trickle down to regular models. These things always do. But they start in the top models while companies figure out manufacturing.
 
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23. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 15:15 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 22, 2017, 14:06:
HDTV was once significantly more expensive. Even 3D trickled down to virtually every tv at its height.

And jacked up the price of said TVs because of it. And HDTV didn't start selling until the price came down. As long as they keep pricing the HDR TVs at their current price range, they're not going to sell, because it's just This Year's Gimmick. Next year it'll be something else again. HDTV is the one thing that genuinely made a huge difference in one's viewing experience. Everything since then, 3D, 4K, HDR, OLED etc, is just that much empty air to people, as evidenced by the fact that it simply doesn't sell that well. (comparatively. Obviously, 3D TVs sold pretty well when you had no choice BUT to buy one if you wanted a new TV.)

You're a tech guy. You know that it takes a bit. Intel's first quad-core processor was $1,000, but that tech made it downstream. BMW puts all its new tech in its six figure 7-series, but it eventually makes it down to the 1-series. NVIDIA puts its new tech in the $1,000 Titan, but eventually it hits $150 consumer parts.

Yes, but it's not quite the same thing. Most of that stuff is genuinely better, although it can be argued that Nvidia and Intel are just making tiny incremental leaps to reap the cash because of virtual monopolistic positions. HDR is nice, sure, but it's not nice enough to justify the asking price. Neither is 4K, neither was 3D, neither is OLED. The TV industry just abounds with all these bullshit new things every single year, and then to really fuck you over, they'll change their standards while they're at it too, because it's not enough to make you buy a new TV, you really should have to buy new cables and ideally new ancillary shit too.

Bleh, in any case, priced as it is today, HDR isn't going to sell, so the TV douchenozzle salesman who said that it has "universal appeal" is just full of shit. As he is pretty much every year.

 
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22. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 14:44 HorrorScope
 
My getting into HDR I think will be a common way. One of my current TV's have failed and needs replaced. Hopefully by that time, HDR will be standard at next to no additional cost. So in general they would have got the same money from me either way, I'll get better quality at that time. But I'm not out today looking for better quality TV, satisfied in full with what I have and totally paid for.

HDR is a nice feature but not something I need to early retire what I currently have. 3D to me is/was the same way, came with my projector for free, I use it, however the negative is the loss of brightness. The tech at least on projectors came with one fairly sized negative, loss of vividness because of the shaded glass. That said, I still have some movies and their cool to watch, if I had no brightness loss at all, I'd be really satisfied.
 
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21. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 14:06 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Jan 22, 2017, 11:57:
Beamer wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 17:13:
HDR is more universally appealing, though. Do people know what it is now? No. But if you put them in front of two TVs, side by side, they can easily see the difference. Everyone can see the difference, and it requires no additional devices such as glasses. It, like HD, will seamlessly become part of everything, because it genuinely is that much better and requires no additional effort from content creators.

"Man, that TV sure is a lot more purdy than this one! Let's get that one!"
"It's four hundred dollars more expensive."
"Oh. Yeah... We'll take this cheap one."

As long as TV manufacturers keep trying to make 80000000% profit on whatever their new Gimmick Du Jour is, it'll just stay a gimmick.

HDTV was once significantly more expensive. Even 3D trickled down to virtually every tv at its height.

You're a tech guy. You know that it takes a bit. Intel's first quad-core processor was $1,000, but that tech made it downstream. BMW puts all its new tech in its six figure 7-series, but it eventually makes it down to the 1-series. NVIDIA puts its new tech in the $1,000 Titan, but eventually it hits $150 consumer parts.
 
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20. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 11:57 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 17:13:
HDR is more universally appealing, though. Do people know what it is now? No. But if you put them in front of two TVs, side by side, they can easily see the difference. Everyone can see the difference, and it requires no additional devices such as glasses. It, like HD, will seamlessly become part of everything, because it genuinely is that much better and requires no additional effort from content creators.

"Man, that TV sure is a lot more purdy than this one! Let's get that one!"
"It's four hundred dollars more expensive."
"Oh. Yeah... We'll take this cheap one."

As long as TV manufacturers keep trying to make 80000000% profit on whatever their new Gimmick Du Jour is, it'll just stay a gimmick.
 
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19. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 11:16 El Pit
 
HoSpanky wrote on Jan 22, 2017, 10:34:
The difference here being that while people are amused, but not IMPRESSED with 3D, everyone is blown away by proper VR (not cellphone VR). The problem is that 3D came first and until they try it, people think VR is just "3D strapped to your face". It's incredibly hard to describe using VR, and that's where its largest hurdle is. 3dtv left such a bad taste in people's mouths that VR has a hell of an uphill battle.

The difference here being that while people are amused, but not IMPRESSED with VR, everyone was blown away by proper 3D (not cheap small 3D tv sets). Avatar broke new ground and became the MOST SUCCESSFUL MOVIE EVER. VR, on the other hand, has nothing to show yet. It has yet to prove its worth and is already in danger of dying off within the next two years (max). It is more niche than 3D has been.
 
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18. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 10:48 Slick
 
I really don't get the adversarial tone here, it's not HDR or 3D, pick your side!

They're both great techs. I love 3D, but to be honest they've had years to iron out the cross-talk issues, and from what I've read even 2016 LG and Sony TVs that had 3D still had crosstalk issues. it's definitely not an "easy" thing to just throw into a set.

HDR on the other hand is a total fucking mess, with the total formats now up to 7 if I'm counting correctly.

- HDR10 vp9
- HDR10 h.265
- Dolby Vision
- Hybrid Log Gamma vp9
- Hybrid Log Gamma h.265
- Advanced HDR by Technicolor
- Youtube HDR vp9

Still, HDR is very very very nice. I'm very excited to see some real adoption. It will probably take a decade (like FHD did) to fully integrate along the production chain, but goddamn. so beautiful.

going from 8-bit to 10-bit isn't as revolutionary as 3D, it's evolutionary, so I'm hoping that it will catch on. It's reallllly hard to go back. everything in SDR just looks like it has a grey film on it, everything is dull and muted.

 
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17. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 10:34 HoSpanky
 
El Pit wrote on Jan 22, 2017, 02:04:
jdreyer wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 20:55:
El Pit wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 11:55:
3D has come and gone multiple times, it will return in 20 years or so. But at least it had some success and was better this time than back in the early 80s and 50s. Let's see if VR can at least be half as successful as this iteration of 3D has been - I dare to say it won't. Right there is your real DOA.

VR is here to stay. It may not be wildly successful but it will be a niche product for the foreseeable future.

Such was 3D - a niche product for a forseeable future. 3D at least had Avatar to push it, VR has nothing up to now.

The difference here being that while people are amused, but not IMPRESSED with 3D, everyone is blown away by proper VR (not cellphone VR). The problem is that 3D came first and until they try it, people think VR is just "3D strapped to your face". It's incredibly hard to describe using VR, and that's where its largest hurdle is. 3dtv left such a bad taste in people's mouths that VR has a hell of an uphill battle.
 
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16. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 09:07 Redmask
 
Rhialto wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 12:53:
Exactly Creston, this is PR bullshit they are just trying to sell HDR. 3D can't be compared to HDR at all, adding depth into a picture is much more impressive than what HDR can give.

Geesh, 3D is still doing well in cinemas, then movies get ported to BluRay, WTF they stop that?

What the hell are you talking about? HDR is a significant improvement to the picture.

3D is not popular in the cinema, I've got news for you. Theaters purposely select the popular viewing times for new movies to charge a price ticket premium using 3D. This isn't driven by consumer demand, its strictly profit optimization. Consumers don't give a shit about 3D, if they did the theater would offer time parity between screens. They know damned well consumers will just pick non-3D and that they won't be able to upcharge the ticket another few bucks.
 
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15. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 02:04 El Pit
 
jdreyer wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 20:55:
El Pit wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 11:55:
3D has come and gone multiple times, it will return in 20 years or so. But at least it had some success and was better this time than back in the early 80s and 50s. Let's see if VR can at least be half as successful as this iteration of 3D has been - I dare to say it won't. Right there is your real DOA.

VR is here to stay. It may not be wildly successful but it will be a niche product for the foreseeable future.

Such was 3D - a niche product for a forseeable future. 3D at least had Avatar to push it, VR has nothing up to now.
 
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14. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 22, 2017, 01:36 Hyatus
 
NetHead wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 17:16:
You think Walmart is to blame, for the tech, failing.

Without the support of what is, likely, the largest in-store retailer of televisions, the technology isn't going to go anywhere. The inflated price from producers, as killer_roach mentioned, was likely a large reason for the lack of their support behind the technology.

I don't feel like the usage was the issue. Plenty of people are still watching 3d movies at the cinema (Dr. Strange was freaking amazing in 3d). If it wasn't selling there, they'd stop wasting money on it.

A fourth major problem, one that I forgot, was early exclusivity issues. Avatar 3d was, if I remember correctly, a Panasonic exclusive title for awhile. How to Train Your Dragon 3d was a Best Buy exclusive title. If you're trying to sell people on a major technology, it is, imo, a stupid idea to limit the tech's 'killer apps'.
 
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13. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 21, 2017, 21:03 killer_roach
 
NetHead wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 17:16:
Hyatus wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 17:06:
Three of the biggest problems with the tech, imo, were:
3. Walmart. One of the largest retailers for televisions in the industry, and I stopped seeing 3d TVs after the first year of the technology, with 3d blurays being a scarce find thereafter.

You think Walmart is to blame, for the tech, failing.

Even ignoring your wording it's one hell of a stretch to think Walmart had anything to do with 3D failing, again.

It's far more likely they saw sales numbers, lots of sales numbers and stocked accordingly.

Hence we are in the inevitable "3D is dead" again stage, by the sounds of it Walmart also saw the flashing writing on the wall.


There's a secondary factor at play there as well - Walmart typically does not stock a manufacturer's full line of TVs, generally just units priced in a more mass-market range (go into a Walmart electronics department; you might see one or two televisions priced over $1,000, but that's it). The failing as it pertains to Walmart was that manufacturers were unwilling to price their 3D-capable sets to a level that Walmart could sell them in quantity.
 
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12. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 21, 2017, 20:55 jdreyer
 
El Pit wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 11:55:
3D has come and gone multiple times, it will return in 20 years or so. But at least it had some success and was better this time than back in the early 80s and 50s. Let's see if VR can at least be half as successful as this iteration of 3D has been - I dare to say it won't. Right there is your real DOA.

VR is here to stay. It may not be wildly successful but it will be a niche product for the foreseeable future.
 
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11. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jan 21, 2017, 20:31 jdreyer
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 21, 2017, 17:13:
HDR is more universally appealing, though. Do people know what it is now? No. But if you put them in front of two TVs, side by side, they can easily see the difference. Everyone can see the difference, and it requires no additional devices such as glasses. It, like HD, will seamlessly become part of everything, because it genuinely is that much better and requires no additional effort from content creators.

This.
 
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