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Evening Legal Briefs

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42. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 20, 2017, 14:44 Mr. Tact
 
jdreyer wrote on Jan 20, 2017, 13:10:
My own thought is a completely independent whistleblowing agency with full subpoena power and security clearance in order to investigate waste, fraud, abuse, and illegal activity.
That would get around most if not all of the problems. Unfortunately there is no way in hell it will happen.
 
Truth is brutal. Prepare for pain.
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41. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 20, 2017, 13:10 jdreyer
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Jan 20, 2017, 10:26:
jdreyer wrote on Jan 20, 2017, 02:38:
The main problem is the whistleblowing is either broken or nonexistent. That problem needs to be fixed to prevent these problems.
Yeah, the problem with trying to fix whistleblowing is it is simply against human nature. All the illegal activity Snowden saw, came through every layer of management to him, the guy at the bottom of the totem pole. So, when Snowden (the guy at the bottom of the totem pole) says to his boss, "This is wrong." His boss knows he and everyone above him has already signed off on it -- he doesn't have any interest in what Snowden (or someone like him) is saying. It is against his self interest to act on it. I don't see how this can be fixed.

My own thought is a completely independent whistleblowing agency with full subpoena power and security clearance in order to investigate waste, fraud, abuse, and illegal activity.
 
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40. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 20, 2017, 10:26 Mr. Tact
 
jdreyer wrote on Jan 20, 2017, 02:38:
The main problem is the whistleblowing is either broken or nonexistent. That problem needs to be fixed to prevent these problems.
Yeah, the problem with trying to fix whistleblowing is it is simply against human nature. All the illegal activity Snowden saw, came through every layer of management to him, the guy at the bottom of the totem pole. So, when Snowden (the guy at the bottom of the totem pole) says to his boss, "This is wrong." His boss knows he and everyone above him has already signed off on it -- he doesn't have any interest in what Snowden (or someone like him) is saying. It is against his self interest to act on it. I don't see how this can be fixed.
 
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39. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 20, 2017, 02:38 jdreyer
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 19, 2017, 08:37:
jdreyer wrote on Jan 19, 2017, 01:43:
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 12:59:
He didn't, and you didn't.

First off, it hardly matters where Snowden was traveling. Or where he ended up. You guys are hyperfocusing on that. What matters is that he ran. Manning didn't. I don't know how many of you have kids, but if your kid did something bad and owned up to it, wouldn't you punish him differently than if he ran? In the legal system, this happens all the time. In humanity, this happens all the time. It's easier to forgive those who admit they did something that may be in need of forgiving.
I think your analogy is too simplistic, and doesn't describe the situation. It's more like this:

Billy sees a fight in the cafeteria, so he tells a teacher. The teacher tells him to shut up and mind his own business. So he pulls the fire alarm, clearing the building and stopping the fight. Despite his good deed, he is harassed by faculty and staff relentlessly to the point of dropping to a D-student and being an outcast at school. This happens to a couple other kids. (See: Binney, Drake, Manning)

Eddie sees a fight in the cafeteria, and mentions it to a teacher. Again, it's mind your own business. Having witnessed the treatment of Billy and others, Eddie pulls the fire alarm, runs home, and transfers schools to avoid punishment.

I get what you're saying logically, but understand when you say "flee to Russia" you're implying his intent, which was never there. Better to say "He fled the USA and ended up in Russia."
Snowden did not do anything wrong, he just did what any patriotic red-blooded American is supposed to do.
He'll get the Presidential Medal of Freedom posthumously, but at least he'll get it.

The main problem is the whistleblowing is either broken or nonexistent. That problem needs to be fixed to prevent these problems.
 
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38. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 19, 2017, 08:37 RedEye9
 
jdreyer wrote on Jan 19, 2017, 01:43:
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 12:59:
He didn't, and you didn't.

First off, it hardly matters where Snowden was traveling. Or where he ended up. You guys are hyperfocusing on that. What matters is that he ran. Manning didn't. I don't know how many of you have kids, but if your kid did something bad and owned up to it, wouldn't you punish him differently than if he ran? In the legal system, this happens all the time. In humanity, this happens all the time. It's easier to forgive those who admit they did something that may be in need of forgiving.
I think your analogy is too simplistic, and doesn't describe the situation. It's more like this:

Billy sees a fight in the cafeteria, so he tells a teacher. The teacher tells him to shut up and mind his own business. So he pulls the fire alarm, clearing the building and stopping the fight. Despite his good deed, he is harassed by faculty and staff relentlessly to the point of dropping to a D-student and being an outcast at school. This happens to a couple other kids. (See: Binney, Drake, Manning)

Eddie sees a fight in the cafeteria, and mentions it to a teacher. Again, it's mind your own business. Having witnessed the treatment of Billy and others, Eddie pulls the fire alarm, runs home, and transfers schools to avoid punishment.

I get what you're saying logically, but understand when you say "flee to Russia" you're implying his intent, which was never there. Better to say "He fled the USA and ended up in Russia."
Snowden did not do anything wrong, he just did what any patriotic red-blooded American is supposed to do.
He'll get the Presidential Medal of Freedom posthumously, but at least he'll get it.
 
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https://www.lawfareblog.com/topic/russia-connection
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/fact-checker-most-repeated-disinformation/
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37. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 19, 2017, 01:43 jdreyer
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 12:59:
He didn't, and you didn't.

First off, it hardly matters where Snowden was traveling. Or where he ended up. You guys are hyperfocusing on that. What matters is that he ran. Manning didn't. I don't know how many of you have kids, but if your kid did something bad and owned up to it, wouldn't you punish him differently than if he ran? In the legal system, this happens all the time. In humanity, this happens all the time. It's easier to forgive those who admit they did something that may be in need of forgiving.
I think your analogy is too simplistic, and doesn't describe the situation. It's more like this:

Billy sees a fight in the cafeteria, so he tells a teacher. The teacher tells him to shut up and mind his own business. So he pulls the fire alarm, clearing the building and stopping the fight. Despite his good deed, he is harassed by faculty and staff relentlessly to the point of dropping to a D-student and being an outcast at school. This happens to a couple other kids. (See: Binney, Drake, Manning)

Eddie sees a fight in the cafeteria, and mentions it to a teacher. Again, it's mind your own business. Having witnessed the treatment of Billy and others, Eddie pulls the fire alarm, runs home, and transfers schools to avoid punishment.

I get what you're saying logically, but understand when you say "flee to Russia" you're implying his intent, which was never there. Better to say "He fled the USA and ended up in Russia."
 
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36. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 19, 2017, 00:56 jdreyer
 
Darks wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 16:50:
*starts rant*
So much to unpack here!
You people are some of the stupidest people I have ever seen, Treason is treason, there is no grey line.
Okay, ad hominem uncalled for, but no one is arguing there's a gray line.
When you release classified information to a foreign govt and entity. that is treason.
Actually, no. Here's the definition of treason, from Article III.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
Purty sure Manning was doing none of those things.
When you are a serving member of the US Govt or Military, you do not have the same rights as the standard citizen.
Actually, can you show me in the constitution where it says soldiers give up their rights? Because I don't see that.
You give up those rights, you also sign a document when working for any Govt stating so and also outlining your rights.
Different laws may apply to you, but the constitution still applies. You'll need to be more specific.
You are especially accountable for any act of Treason such as these two people did.
First, you need to read the definition of treason again. Second, soldiers are no more or less accountable for treason than anyone else.
Those crimes are punishable by death.
Has anyone argued otherwise?
This POS Manning caused the deaths of people because of his actions. theirs no excusing that, none at all!!
Links? Because I got a brigadier general who says otherwise.

This act from Obama is nothing more then him thumbing his nose at the America public and the incoming president.
Or maybe this is Obama being compassionate to an individual who suffered 8 years of punishment, some of it illegal, for trying to reveal wrongdoing, even if he did it in an illegal manner.
this is him lighting dumpster fires on his way out and Its bullshit, you all need to evaluate your moral compass because its way the fuck out of alignment.
I got news for you: the dumpster fire is just beginning, and it will burn for the next four years. At least.
 
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35. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 21:01 RedEye9
 
Shineyguy wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 09:40:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 20:48:
THANK YOU OBAMA!!! Edward Snowden should have been on that list.

President Obama will be known as one of the greatest Presidents in the history of the United States and drumpf will be nothing but an ugly forgotten footnote.

Realize that this isn't necessarily Obama being a good guy. Julian Assange just recently said he'd turn himself in if Obama pardons Manning...

Chew on that for a bit.
It didn't even have as much texture as tapioca pudding. If you thought there was a chance of that actually happening I got a bridge for sale that you might be interested in.
President Obama is no dummy and neither is Julian Assange. Assange's lawyer blinked and said no dice—that Assange would not honor his statement.

I guess you could say Assange pulled a trump.

but wait, there's more
Obama on Wednesday dismissed the idea that his act of clemency was aimed at securing the extradition of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, who has taken refuge in the Ecuadoran Embassy in London. Although Assange had promised to submit to extradition if Manning was pardoned, U.S. officials have said he is unlikely to face charges here.

“I don’t pay a lot of attention to Julian Assange’s tweets, so that wasn’t a consideration in this decision,” the president said.

This comment was edited on Jan 18, 2017, 22:16.
 
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https://www.lawfareblog.com/topic/russia-connection
The game’s afoot.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/fact-checker-most-repeated-disinformation/
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34. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 20:00 Dacote
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 19:35:
descender wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 19:02:
Treason is treason, there is no grey line. When you release classified information to a foreign govt and entity. that is treason.

OK, well... Snowden didn't even do that by your definition. Only Manning did.

Glad you found one more way to hate on Obama though, you'll be pretty bored come Saturday.

And on top of that his man also told the Ruskies to hack us and he doesn't trust his own intelligence agencies. Mixed up, messed up, fuck'd up world... No words can explain the madness.
But RedEye and President Obama are the devil.
 
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33. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 19:35 HorrorScope
 
descender wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 19:02:
Treason is treason, there is no grey line. When you release classified information to a foreign govt and entity. that is treason.

OK, well... Snowden didn't even do that by your definition. Only Manning did.

Glad you found one more way to hate on Obama though, you'll be pretty bored come Saturday.

And on top of that his man also told the Ruskies to hack us and he doesn't trust his own intelligence agencies. Mixed up, messed up, fuck'd up world... No words can explain the madness.
 
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32. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 19:02 descender
 
Treason is treason, there is no grey line. When you release classified information to a foreign govt and entity. that is treason.

OK, well... Snowden didn't even do that by your definition. Only Manning did.

Glad you found one more way to hate on Obama though, you'll be pretty bored come Saturday.
 
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31. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 18:56 RedEye9
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 14:35:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 13:17:
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 12:59:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 11:03:
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:27:
Bard wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:06:
NetHead wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 07:05:
Beamer wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 22:03:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 20:48:
THANK YOU OBAMA!!! Edward Snowden should have been on that list.

President Obama will be known as one of the greatest Presidents in the history of the United States and drumpf will be nothing but an ugly forgotten footnote.

Snowden fled to Russia.


Sigh...


Isn't it amazing how misinformed a lot of people are.

Instead of 'The US revoked his passport while he was in transit to Ecuador, leaving him stuck in Russia' becomes 'He fled to Russia'.

But to be fair, with the mainstream media's purpose apparently being misinforming people - it shouldn't be surprising. Right?

Did he take refuge? Yes. Was his final destination Russia? Not originally, but yes, it was. Very accurately, he fled to Russia. He fled. He ended up in Russia. That is, by definition, fleeing to Russia. Who is harboring him. He is unwilling to come home and face trial, whereas Manning did face trial, and that's the huge difference between the two.

I also enjoy that:

1) I said I like Snowden

2) I said I would like the charges dropped

3) You guys keep ignoring that Obama legally can't pardon someone that hasn't been convicted federally
No matter how you want to spin it, It's clearly you who is not "getting" this, Russia was never Snowden's destination. He got stranded there almost persona not grata when his passport was revoked.

Ford pardoned Nixon, Obama can pardon Snowden (and should have). jdreyer already spelled it out, this ain't rocket surgery http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/will-obama-pardon-edward-snowden-233658

He didn't, and you didn't.

First off, it hardly matters where Snowden was traveling. Or where he ended up. You guys are hyperfocusing on that. What matters is that he ran. Manning didn't. I don't know how many of you have kids, but if your kid did something bad and owned up to it, wouldn't you punish him differently than if he ran? In the legal system, this happens all the time. In humanity, this happens all the time. It's easier to forgive those who admit they did something that may be in need of forgiving.

Second off, you're right. You need to be convicted to ask for a pardon, but not receive it. I was incorrect there.

In that case, my argument remains only to those (none of whom are here) who claim that there was some kind of ulterior motive for pardoning Manning, not Snowden. In reality, I think it just comes down to Manning actually taking responsibility and Snowden not.
Snowden quote about why he is in Russia
"The reality is I never intended to end up in Russia," he said. "I had a flight booked to Cuba onwards to Latin America and I was stopped because the United States government decided to revoke my passport and trap me in Moscow airport.”

"So when people ask why are you in Russia, I say, 'Please ask the State Department,'” he added.
Where it looks like he will be for many more years.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/europe/edward-snowden-asylum-russia.html

Regardless, President Obama should have pardoned him.

Russia doesn't matter. What matters is he ran.

And yes, he should be pardoned, but acting like his situation and Manning's is identical, which many, many people are doing, is insane.
The information he released has made changes in the USA and some would say the world. What he was charged with was punishable by death, tell me you would have done things any different if you were in his shoes.
 
Avatar 58135
 
https://www.lawfareblog.com/topic/russia-connection
The game’s afoot.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/fact-checker-most-repeated-disinformation/
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30. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 17:55 Beamer
 
What deaths did Manning cause?  
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29. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 17:49 HorrorScope
 
Darks wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 16:50:
You people are some of the stupidest people I have ever seen, Treason is treason, there is no grey line. When you release classified information to a foreign govt and entity. that is treason.

Right is right when it can be determined and wrong is wrong, the same.

You are correct in a political sense, but perhaps not in a right/wrong world.

If Satan ran the US, those who oppose are treasonous or right?
 
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28. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 16:50 Darks
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 14:35:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 13:17:
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 12:59:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 11:03:
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:27:
Bard wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:06:
NetHead wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 07:05:
Beamer wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 22:03:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 20:48:
THANK YOU OBAMA!!! Edward Snowden should have been on that list.

President Obama will be known as one of the greatest Presidents in the history of the United States and drumpf will be nothing but an ugly forgotten footnote.

Snowden fled to Russia.


Sigh...


Isn't it amazing how misinformed a lot of people are.

Instead of 'The US revoked his passport while he was in transit to Ecuador, leaving him stuck in Russia' becomes 'He fled to Russia'.

But to be fair, with the mainstream media's purpose apparently being misinforming people - it shouldn't be surprising. Right?

Did he take refuge? Yes. Was his final destination Russia? Not originally, but yes, it was. Very accurately, he fled to Russia. He fled. He ended up in Russia. That is, by definition, fleeing to Russia. Who is harboring him. He is unwilling to come home and face trial, whereas Manning did face trial, and that's the huge difference between the two.

I also enjoy that:

1) I said I like Snowden

2) I said I would like the charges dropped

3) You guys keep ignoring that Obama legally can't pardon someone that hasn't been convicted federally
No matter how you want to spin it, It's clearly you who is not "getting" this, Russia was never Snowden's destination. He got stranded there almost persona not grata when his passport was revoked.

Ford pardoned Nixon, Obama can pardon Snowden (and should have). jdreyer already spelled it out, this ain't rocket surgery http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/will-obama-pardon-edward-snowden-233658

He didn't, and you didn't.

First off, it hardly matters where Snowden was traveling. Or where he ended up. You guys are hyperfocusing on that. What matters is that he ran. Manning didn't. I don't know how many of you have kids, but if your kid did something bad and owned up to it, wouldn't you punish him differently than if he ran? In the legal system, this happens all the time. In humanity, this happens all the time. It's easier to forgive those who admit they did something that may be in need of forgiving.

Second off, you're right. You need to be convicted to ask for a pardon, but not receive it. I was incorrect there.

In that case, my argument remains only to those (none of whom are here) who claim that there was some kind of ulterior motive for pardoning Manning, not Snowden. In reality, I think it just comes down to Manning actually taking responsibility and Snowden not.
Snowden quote about why he is in Russia
"The reality is I never intended to end up in Russia," he said. "I had a flight booked to Cuba onwards to Latin America and I was stopped because the United States government decided to revoke my passport and trap me in Moscow airport.”

"So when people ask why are you in Russia, I say, 'Please ask the State Department,'” he added.
Where it looks like he will be for many more years.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/europe/edward-snowden-asylum-russia.html

Regardless, President Obama should have pardoned him.

Russia doesn't matter. What matters is he ran.

And yes, he should be pardoned, but acting like his situation and Manning's is identical, which many, many people are doing, is insane.

You people are some of the stupidest people I have ever seen, Treason is treason, there is no grey line. When you release classified information to a foreign govt and entity. that is treason.

When you are a serving member of the US Govt or Military, you do not have the same rights as the standard citizen. You give up those rights, you also sign a document when working for any Govt stating so and also outlining your rights. You are especially accountable for any act of Treason such as these two people did. Those crimes are punishable by death. This POS Manning caused the deaths of people because of his actions. theirs no excusing that, none at all!!

This act from Obama is nothing more then him thumbing his nose at the America public and the incoming president. this is him lighting dumpster fires on his way out and Its bullshit, you all need to evaluate your moral compass because its way the fuck out of alignment.
 
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27. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 14:50 descender
 
I'd argue that in some ways Snowden deserves a pardon more than Manning. I don't really approve of the way Manning decided to release classified documents to a foreign hacking network. I know that they "tried to go to the press first" but in my eyes that doesn't excuse the reckless way they released the documents.  
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26. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 14:35 Beamer
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 13:17:
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 12:59:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 11:03:
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:27:
Bard wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:06:
NetHead wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 07:05:
Beamer wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 22:03:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 20:48:
THANK YOU OBAMA!!! Edward Snowden should have been on that list.

President Obama will be known as one of the greatest Presidents in the history of the United States and drumpf will be nothing but an ugly forgotten footnote.

Snowden fled to Russia.


Sigh...


Isn't it amazing how misinformed a lot of people are.

Instead of 'The US revoked his passport while he was in transit to Ecuador, leaving him stuck in Russia' becomes 'He fled to Russia'.

But to be fair, with the mainstream media's purpose apparently being misinforming people - it shouldn't be surprising. Right?

Did he take refuge? Yes. Was his final destination Russia? Not originally, but yes, it was. Very accurately, he fled to Russia. He fled. He ended up in Russia. That is, by definition, fleeing to Russia. Who is harboring him. He is unwilling to come home and face trial, whereas Manning did face trial, and that's the huge difference between the two.

I also enjoy that:

1) I said I like Snowden

2) I said I would like the charges dropped

3) You guys keep ignoring that Obama legally can't pardon someone that hasn't been convicted federally
No matter how you want to spin it, It's clearly you who is not "getting" this, Russia was never Snowden's destination. He got stranded there almost persona not grata when his passport was revoked.

Ford pardoned Nixon, Obama can pardon Snowden (and should have). jdreyer already spelled it out, this ain't rocket surgery http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/will-obama-pardon-edward-snowden-233658

He didn't, and you didn't.

First off, it hardly matters where Snowden was traveling. Or where he ended up. You guys are hyperfocusing on that. What matters is that he ran. Manning didn't. I don't know how many of you have kids, but if your kid did something bad and owned up to it, wouldn't you punish him differently than if he ran? In the legal system, this happens all the time. In humanity, this happens all the time. It's easier to forgive those who admit they did something that may be in need of forgiving.

Second off, you're right. You need to be convicted to ask for a pardon, but not receive it. I was incorrect there.

In that case, my argument remains only to those (none of whom are here) who claim that there was some kind of ulterior motive for pardoning Manning, not Snowden. In reality, I think it just comes down to Manning actually taking responsibility and Snowden not.
Snowden quote about why he is in Russia
"The reality is I never intended to end up in Russia," he said. "I had a flight booked to Cuba onwards to Latin America and I was stopped because the United States government decided to revoke my passport and trap me in Moscow airport.”

"So when people ask why are you in Russia, I say, 'Please ask the State Department,'” he added.
Where it looks like he will be for many more years.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/europe/edward-snowden-asylum-russia.html

Regardless, President Obama should have pardoned him.

Russia doesn't matter. What matters is he ran.

And yes, he should be pardoned, but acting like his situation and Manning's is identical, which many, many people are doing, is insane.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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25. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 13:17 RedEye9
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 12:59:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 11:03:
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:27:
Bard wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:06:
NetHead wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 07:05:
Beamer wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 22:03:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 20:48:
THANK YOU OBAMA!!! Edward Snowden should have been on that list.

President Obama will be known as one of the greatest Presidents in the history of the United States and drumpf will be nothing but an ugly forgotten footnote.

Snowden fled to Russia.


Sigh...


Isn't it amazing how misinformed a lot of people are.

Instead of 'The US revoked his passport while he was in transit to Ecuador, leaving him stuck in Russia' becomes 'He fled to Russia'.

But to be fair, with the mainstream media's purpose apparently being misinforming people - it shouldn't be surprising. Right?

Did he take refuge? Yes. Was his final destination Russia? Not originally, but yes, it was. Very accurately, he fled to Russia. He fled. He ended up in Russia. That is, by definition, fleeing to Russia. Who is harboring him. He is unwilling to come home and face trial, whereas Manning did face trial, and that's the huge difference between the two.

I also enjoy that:

1) I said I like Snowden

2) I said I would like the charges dropped

3) You guys keep ignoring that Obama legally can't pardon someone that hasn't been convicted federally
No matter how you want to spin it, It's clearly you who is not "getting" this, Russia was never Snowden's destination. He got stranded there almost persona not grata when his passport was revoked.

Ford pardoned Nixon, Obama can pardon Snowden (and should have). jdreyer already spelled it out, this ain't rocket surgery http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/will-obama-pardon-edward-snowden-233658

He didn't, and you didn't.

First off, it hardly matters where Snowden was traveling. Or where he ended up. You guys are hyperfocusing on that. What matters is that he ran. Manning didn't. I don't know how many of you have kids, but if your kid did something bad and owned up to it, wouldn't you punish him differently than if he ran? In the legal system, this happens all the time. In humanity, this happens all the time. It's easier to forgive those who admit they did something that may be in need of forgiving.

Second off, you're right. You need to be convicted to ask for a pardon, but not receive it. I was incorrect there.

In that case, my argument remains only to those (none of whom are here) who claim that there was some kind of ulterior motive for pardoning Manning, not Snowden. In reality, I think it just comes down to Manning actually taking responsibility and Snowden not.
Snowden quote about why he is in Russia
"The reality is I never intended to end up in Russia," he said. "I had a flight booked to Cuba onwards to Latin America and I was stopped because the United States government decided to revoke my passport and trap me in Moscow airport.”

"So when people ask why are you in Russia, I say, 'Please ask the State Department,'” he added.
Where it looks like he will be for many more years.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/europe/edward-snowden-asylum-russia.html

Regardless, President Obama should have pardoned him.
 
Avatar 58135
 
https://www.lawfareblog.com/topic/russia-connection
The game’s afoot.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/fact-checker-most-repeated-disinformation/
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24. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 12:59 Beamer
 
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 11:03:
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:27:
Bard wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:06:
NetHead wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 07:05:
Beamer wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 22:03:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 20:48:
THANK YOU OBAMA!!! Edward Snowden should have been on that list.

President Obama will be known as one of the greatest Presidents in the history of the United States and drumpf will be nothing but an ugly forgotten footnote.

Snowden fled to Russia.


Sigh...


Isn't it amazing how misinformed a lot of people are.

Instead of 'The US revoked his passport while he was in transit to Ecuador, leaving him stuck in Russia' becomes 'He fled to Russia'.

But to be fair, with the mainstream media's purpose apparently being misinforming people - it shouldn't be surprising. Right?

Did he take refuge? Yes. Was his final destination Russia? Not originally, but yes, it was. Very accurately, he fled to Russia. He fled. He ended up in Russia. That is, by definition, fleeing to Russia. Who is harboring him. He is unwilling to come home and face trial, whereas Manning did face trial, and that's the huge difference between the two.

I also enjoy that:

1) I said I like Snowden

2) I said I would like the charges dropped

3) You guys keep ignoring that Obama legally can't pardon someone that hasn't been convicted federally
No matter how you want to spin it, It's clearly you who is not "getting" this, Russia was never Snowden's destination. He got stranded there almost persona not grata when his passport was revoked.

Ford pardoned Nixon, Obama can pardon Snowden (and should have). jdreyer already spelled it out, this ain't rocket surgery http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/will-obama-pardon-edward-snowden-233658

He didn't, and you didn't.

First off, it hardly matters where Snowden was traveling. Or where he ended up. You guys are hyperfocusing on that. What matters is that he ran. Manning didn't. I don't know how many of you have kids, but if your kid did something bad and owned up to it, wouldn't you punish him differently than if he ran? In the legal system, this happens all the time. In humanity, this happens all the time. It's easier to forgive those who admit they did something that may be in need of forgiving.

Second off, you're right. You need to be convicted to ask for a pardon, but not receive it. I was incorrect there.

In that case, my argument remains only to those (none of whom are here) who claim that there was some kind of ulterior motive for pardoning Manning, not Snowden. In reality, I think it just comes down to Manning actually taking responsibility and Snowden not.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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23. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Jan 18, 2017, 11:03 RedEye9
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:27:
Bard wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 10:06:
NetHead wrote on Jan 18, 2017, 07:05:
Beamer wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 22:03:
RedEye9 wrote on Jan 17, 2017, 20:48:
THANK YOU OBAMA!!! Edward Snowden should have been on that list.

President Obama will be known as one of the greatest Presidents in the history of the United States and drumpf will be nothing but an ugly forgotten footnote.

Snowden fled to Russia.


Sigh...


Isn't it amazing how misinformed a lot of people are.

Instead of 'The US revoked his passport while he was in transit to Ecuador, leaving him stuck in Russia' becomes 'He fled to Russia'.

But to be fair, with the mainstream media's purpose apparently being misinforming people - it shouldn't be surprising. Right?

Did he take refuge? Yes. Was his final destination Russia? Not originally, but yes, it was. Very accurately, he fled to Russia. He fled. He ended up in Russia. That is, by definition, fleeing to Russia. Who is harboring him. He is unwilling to come home and face trial, whereas Manning did face trial, and that's the huge difference between the two.

I also enjoy that:

1) I said I like Snowden

2) I said I would like the charges dropped

3) You guys keep ignoring that Obama legally can't pardon someone that hasn't been convicted federally
No matter how you want to spin it, It's clearly you who is not "getting" this, Russia was never Snowden's destination. He got stranded there almost persona not grata when his passport was revoked.

Ford pardoned Nixon, Obama can pardon Snowden (and should have). jdreyer already spelled it out, this ain't rocket surgery http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/will-obama-pardon-edward-snowden-233658
 
Avatar 58135
 
https://www.lawfareblog.com/topic/russia-connection
The game’s afoot.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/fact-checker-most-repeated-disinformation/
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
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