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64. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 15, 2017, 09:45 Redmask
 
MattyC wrote on Jan 14, 2017, 16:43:
Um, the 3DS has something like > 60 million units sold. Is that as much as the DS? No, but that is plenty respectable. Also the only real holiday markdown solid out before it was even suppose to be on sale.

I know, I wouldn't mind having one for a sale price, but it just never really happens...

Retailers mark it down all the time to shift units, it sits on shelves at $199. Pay more attention or use a price tracker. The 3DS was successful but again the portable market is on the decline thanks to smartphones and that trend is only worsening. There isn't even room in the market for 2 portables anymore. Do you see the Switch moving 60m units?
 
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63. Re: Into the Black Jan 15, 2017, 01:54 Slick
 
FloorPie wrote on Jan 14, 2017, 16:04:
Slick: "The xbox doesn't ship with a game, the Playstation doesn't ship with a game. I can't remember the last time that was brought up as an issue, it's become standard practice."

Yes, yes. Just read Prez's post again. Bah, but here is another Time Machine argument for ya Slick... we're looking at now now, not then. Now. Hell, lets look at December 2015 just over a year ago. $300 got me 3 games with my xbone.

Dumb argument is dumb. We're talking about launch prices. If you want to compare apples to apples, tell me what the Switch costs in 3-4 years.

And did you miss the whole point that the Switch does something that other consoles don't? That's the value. Besides being one of the cheapest consoles on launch in the last 30 years...

ANYWAYS

I found a pretty good review from someone that actually got to fuck around with the Switch. I have to say, after seeing it in action I might actually want one now... probably not, but it's pretty nifty.

CHECK IT.
 
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62. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 16:43 MattyC
 
The 3DS isn't putting up numbers anywhere near the DS and that's with frequent markdowns major holidays to drive sales.

Um, the 3DS has something like > 60 million units sold. Is that as much as the DS? No, but that is plenty respectable. Also the only real holiday markdown solid out before it was even suppose to be on sale.

I know, I wouldn't mind having one for a sale price, but it just never really happens...
 
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61. Re: Into the Black Jan 14, 2017, 16:04 FloorPie
 
Fion wrote on Jan 13, 2017, 23:57:
Yes I mean Micro-SSD of course. On the prices, I forgot to mention they want $40 for one controller. Not one set, one controller.. left or right and you of course need both if you want to put them on a dock or that junky-looking plastic charger/controller because they each have different functionalities. Buying them as a set is $80!

Oh no, it is worse than that. It is $50 USD for just one "joy-con" half controller. $80 for the pair. Aka the nickle and dime eff you to parents having to buy a replacement that the kiddo (or parent) lost. $70 for a "pro" controller is pretty bad too but well, it doesn't look like there are any games yet that will really need it. Maybe zelda.

Slick: "The xbox doesn't ship with a game, the Playstation doesn't ship with a game. I can't remember the last time that was brought up as an issue, it's become standard practice."

Yes, yes. Just read Prez's post again. Bah, but here is another Time Machine argument for ya Slick... we're looking at now now, not then. Now. Hell, lets look at December 2015 just over a year ago. $300 got me 3 games with my xbone. Deals were apparently even better this year for PS4/Xbone. Nintendo isn't +/- 6 months into this generation, it is 3 years behind. But yeah, sign me up for $360 to get Mario Kart 8 DLC edition with a couple new modes. They'll probably kill Wii U online play too. Why, that will sell me on upgrading, to then use my smart phone to do any online chat/voice! But sure, this a cheap/ sort of smart way to do mobile online gaming but kinda dumb for a machine that is also supposed to be a home console. Oh, and $50 a year for that clunky mess. Sold!

Ahh, hybrids. You'd think people would learn after win8/10. At least they should have waited another 6-12 months for better hardware.
 
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60. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 14:11 Redmask
 
The hits keep on coming from Big N.

Voice chat is a fucking smartphone app. Hey guys, we know we can use the phone to talk to other people!

They have confirmed with a straight fucking face that they are charging online fees for their dumpster fire online services. The only benefit is a NES & SNES game every month that you have to pay to keep after that month. Get fucked!

Reg has a shitty job trying to answer these things from the press while pretending that Nintendo isn't the most outdated fucking company in the universe.
 
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59. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 11:21 Agent-Zero
 
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild requires 13.4 GB of storage space if it is downloaded to the Nintendo Switch. That is a little under half of the internal capacity of Nintendo’s new console.

Golfclap
 
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58. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 09:48 Redmask
 
Prez wrote on Jan 14, 2017, 06:26:
Yes I saw the linked image. I found it interesting, but I also noted that it didn't seem to include consoles from the handheld market. I mention this because if you analyze the advertising the amount of time the Switch is shown docked versus how much it is shown as a mobile device one could make the argument that Nintendo is marketing the device as a handheld first. Given the gaming environment in Nintendo's homeland Japan, where the trend is heavily weighted towards mobile gaming, that would seem fair.

Most people don't realize that Nintendo of America is a shell. It has little autonomy and is tightly controlled by Nintendo of Japan. Nintendo of America is basically a marketing affiliate. Very few games are made through NOA and its essentially a drop ship fucking arrangement with some sales people. Given how backwards Japanese corporate culture is and the number of old timers who still inhabit the board, its no surprise that they only give a shit about Japanese things even though sales from the rest of the world are buoying the company. That's just how its done in many companies in Japan still. Some companies are getting more progressive recently like Square-Enix but Nintendo is still doing the same shit and just having NOA market it better.

Nintendo is a company where with the Wii U, developers asked for API access to online functions. Nintendo literally didn't understand what they were talking about because they had never used fucking PSN or XBL. That's how fucking disconnected from reality Nintendo is. Put that into perspective, this is the company that's going to charge cash for online multiplayer. Well at least we know they'll have one customer from this thread.
 
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57. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 09:29 Redmask
 
jacobvandy wrote on Jan 14, 2017, 02:09:
Just saw this posted on Reddit, a ranking of the cheapest console releases of all time when adjusted for inflation: http://i.imgur.com/DFAEXzU.png

No one cares what the inflation adjusted numbers are. They care about the value proposition of what they're paying for today. You get a lot more for your money buying a PS4 and the portable market was already on the decline anyway. The 3DS isn't putting up numbers anywhere near the DS and that's with frequent markdowns major holidays to drive sales.

This will do alright because they'll probably cannibalize what little life is left in the portable market but it's not going to be a Wii, more likely another Wii U.

Our little internet contrarian spammer would have us be thankful to get a console that has less storage space total than some single game I've installed recently, something that runs 720p games with 2-3 hours of battery life.

Go see the milking game picture, its very appropriate!
 
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56. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 06:26 Prez
 
Yes I saw the linked image. I found it interesting, but I also noted that it didn't seem to include consoles from the handheld market. I mention this because if you analyze the advertising the amount of time the Switch is shown docked versus how much it is shown as a mobile device one could make the argument that Nintendo is marketing the device as a handheld first. Given the gaming environment in Nintendo's homeland Japan, where the trend is heavily weighted towards mobile gaming, that would seem fair.

Also, the list doesn't take into account that all consoles are not created equal. The PS4 at launch had better features and more raw power than the Xbox One and yet released $100 cheaper, giving Sony a great advantage early on in the generation for example.

You mention indie games, and I agree embracing that scene would be the single best move Nintendo could make to achieve relevancy and market penetration it needs to be competitive this generation. I also agree that marketing was the single biggest failure of Nintendo with the Wii-U, which really wasn't that bad of a system. I think the lack of really good first party franchise games was a huge failure too. Nintendo has shown in the past that it can be successful without much third party support, but it absolutely has to have good in-house games.

While I have some concerns, as you said Nintendo has been on point with their marketing, already correcting the biggest failure of the Wii-U generation, so there is cause for optimism. I just can't underestimate Nintendo's ability to make horrible decisions from time to time.

This comment was edited on Jan 14, 2017, 07:15.
 
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55. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 05:55 Slick
 
Did you see the linked image? If they released the Switch any cheaper, it would literally be the cheapest console released in the past 30 years. So no, as a matter of fact I don't think that it's price is expensive for Nintendo.

As for Zelda, I've been on top of the recent game trailers, it looks spectacular. Yes it is unfair to judge because it's not even released. But again that's kind of my point, people in this thread were shitting on it because it's "just a port". Let the game sink or swim on it's own merits. It's such a tortured litigious argument that is based on the speculation of fear instead of facts, so I refute it loudly.

I totally agree that it would probably be in Nintendo's best interest to bundle some mini-games for launch, I'm not arguing that. I was just saying that it's not justifiable grounds for claiming aberrant behaviour without the minigames. It's the norm not to include them, expectations should roughly follow that industry guideline.

What they really should do is dominate the indy games market. Most the indy games on steam would make a perfect fit for that console, if they need 3rd party developers to adopt, they should make their platform more open for PC ports, if it's not already. First party titles are good, but I'm okay with the drip-feed personally, there's only so much Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, Yoshi, Smash Bros, and Mario Kart that I can take in a lifetime... since they don't seem to interested in nurturing new IPs, better to space them out.

So we don't know about the 32GB drive, as we don't know how the store will play out. Obviously it's not enough for AAA games, I think you could get half of BF1 on there. But we can make some logical deductions. Since 32GB would be useless for big games, I think we can assume by it's nature that it's not intended for that. The most reasonable assumption is that store-bought games will be DVD-sized or smaller, with lots of back catalogue. How many SNES roms do you think will fit on 32GB? xD I can fit about 10-15 AAA games on a 500GB PS4 console, so 32GB will mean about 8 DVD-sized games? Not amazing, but not unreasonable. Plus expansions, which fixes that, pretty cheaply. Better than swapping HDDs IMO.

As for the battery life, 3 hours of fullscreening a AAA game like skyrim is pretty good. My laptop will die after about 45 minutes of playing skyrim, as laptops aren't designed for gaming on the battery. That tegra chip in the Switch is the most efficient thing that currently exists to solve this problem, so there's not really much that Nintendo can do to get around that.

I think that Nintendo's biggest mistake of their last, admittedly FAILED generation, was marketing and messaging. Like I said before, I had friends who didn't even know that the Wii-U was a new Nintendo console. Personally I just happened to see it in a Wal-Mart one day, and was kind of blown away. This time they have awareness, they have a feasible gimmick, and they have a solid day-1 game. I'd say they're far better positioned for this launch than any other time in recent memory.

This comment was edited on Jan 14, 2017, 06:08.
 
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54. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 05:17 Prez
 
There's really no point in using logic with some of these people.

It's been established that $300 is expensive for a console. That you need 4 controllers to play with 2 people. That the new Zelda is shit. That it's normal for consoles to launch with games included. That it's normal for consoles to not charge to use their MP servers. That 2 controllers included with a new console "isn't good enough". That the innovations in the Switch are "technologically backwards". That the semi-short battery life of a portable console is worse than no batteries at all. That the internal storage of 32GB isn't big enough for games sold on cartridges.

Bunch of whiny twats if you ask me. You'd think of ALL new console launches, that the Nintendo one with a new Zelda game would at least bring a small bit of simple joy to gamers. Nope. Shit all over it. Garbage.

I'm not sure you're characterizing the viewpoints that may be counter to yours fairly. $300 is not too much for a console. It may, however, be a bit too much for a Nintendo console for some people in the context for what has been revealed thus far.

Zelda looks great - I haven't really seen anyone dumping on it the way you suggest. But you can't expect unbridled enthusiasm about a game (that no one really knows anything about) from a company that has made some really bad decisions with its most beloved franchises in recent years.

No one suggested that it's normal for all consoles to release with games bundled in at base retail price, but Nintendo is not in a normal position given the unique challenges it is facing releasing a new system in an environment in which they have been consistently one step behind other console manufacturers, have lost a huge amount of relevancy in the console space due to anemic third party support and barely a drip-feed of first party games to keep core fans satisfied, and are releasing it between two new, more powerful versions of current gen consoles that make the landscape far more competitive. I merely suggested that bundling something like the 1-2 mini game collection could give them a much needed boost similar to what happened with the Wii with the charming Wii Sports package.

As far as the 32GB system storage capacity, in the context of a system that purely runs cartridge based games that's probably enough, but presumably Nintendo is going to allow digital game downloads through their online service - frankly I think it would be crazy if they didn't - which, given the size of many games today suddenly renders that 32GB in a completely different light. 32GB is not a lot of space if you are talking downloadable games, and as has already been mentioned, the SD cards present another challenge in the form of much slower performance.

Lastly, on the subject of battery life, the first Switch commercial did show the console being used to play Skyrim on a plane. With under 3 hours of battery life purported for more demanding games it would have to be a fairly short flight, and given the unreasonablly high cost of the extra dock, I shudder to think what an external battery pack would cost.

My kids are grown now so I don't really have a dog in this fight the way I did in the Wii generation, but I have a huge nostalgic soft spot for Nintendo and would really like to see them succeed. And who knows? If Zelda and Mario turn out great, and they revive some of their dormant franchises like Monster Hunter and Metroid, I might even be interested in buying a Switch for myself. But I can't deny that there are some concerning indications that Nintendo may end up repeating a lot of mistakes that have really hurt them recently.

This comment was edited on Jan 14, 2017, 05:34.
 
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53. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 04:29 MattyC
 
Slick wrote on Jan 14, 2017, 03:18:
p.s. I had a 3DO ^_^

I still have a 3DO laying around somewhere in the attic... The best version of Road Rash and a solid port of StarControl 2!
 
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52. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 03:18 Slick
 
jacobvandy wrote on Jan 14, 2017, 02:09:
Just saw this posted on Reddit, a ranking of the cheapest console releases of all time when adjusted for inflation: http://i.imgur.com/DFAEXzU.png

There's really no point in using logic with some of these people.

It's been established that $300 is expensive for a console. That you need 4 controllers to play with 2 people. That the new Zelda is shit. That it's normal for consoles to launch with games included. That it's normal for consoles to not charge to use their MP servers. That 2 controllers included with a new console "isn't good enough". That the innovations in the Switch are "technologically backwards". That the semi-short battery life of a portable console is worse than no batteries at all. That the internal storage of 32GB isn't big enough for games sold on cartridges.

Bunch of whiny twats if you ask me. You'd think of ALL new console launches, that the Nintendo one with a new Zelda game would at least bring a small bit of simple joy to gamers. Nope. Shit all over it. Garbage.

Sad.

p.s. I had a 3DO ^_^
 
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51. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 02:09 jacobvandy
 
Just saw this posted on Reddit, a ranking of the cheapest console releases of all time when adjusted for inflation: http://i.imgur.com/DFAEXzU.png  
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50. Re: Into the Black Jan 14, 2017, 01:37 jacobvandy
 
Fion wrote on Jan 13, 2017, 23:33:
1) $300 base price that doesn't include all the core tools and not a single game seems a bit steep. Want another set of controllers? $90! A dock to charge them on? $90! A 'console' style charger that you plug the two controllers into that is basically just cheap plastic handles? $30! So if you want to be able to hook this up to a TV, using an x-box style controller (with half the functionality) to play with 2 people that's a $220 investment on top of the $300 core price. Absurd!

"Small" correction here... The $90 dock is the base station + AC adapter + HDMI cable bundle, which represents a big chunk of what is included in the box for $300. You do not need to buy another unless you break/lose yours or you want to set up multiple places to drop the tablet in and play on TVs.

The rest of what you list are pretty standard accessories that are sold separately for lots of consoles. I.e. for Xbox, it comes with one controller, another one is $50-60, and don't forget $25 rechargeable battery packs for both because otherwise you're burning through a pair of AA batteries every few days! The charging grip for the Joy-cons is nice, sure, but they last 20 hours on a charge so you can get by without it. The non-charging grip like the one in the box is $15.
 
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49. Re: Into the Black Jan 14, 2017, 01:25 Slick
 
NegaDeath wrote on Jan 14, 2017, 00:25:
Slick wrote on Jan 13, 2017, 22:14:
You've completely disregarded the fact that Nintendo knew internally that they were developing the Switch. That completely changes the discussion.

I disregarded it because it's a dumb argument. They did not start development on a Switch game 5+ years in advance of the platform being released, and then backport it to the platform that was out at the time. It was demonstrated on WiiU a year before the Tegra hardware the Switch is based on was even released. Literally the Switch hardware did not exist to develop on. It is the exact same thing that happened to Twilight Princess, which you already admitted you were wrong about earlier. Literally identical.

And for the record noone is disregarding Zelda, that is a deflection. People are disregarding the backwards technical design and anemic software schedule of Switch.

Fine.

Chances are that developing for the Switch from day 1 is unlikely if it came about 5 years ago. That however doesn't dismiss the possibility that development switched to the Switch in the last, what, 2 years of development? I'd imagine getting a system designed, marketed, built, and shipped would take a couple years at minimum.

None of this detracts from the argument that this is somehow a reason to hate something that no one's even played yet, because it wasn't "built for this system". It's silly.

Oh, and I don't know if you were expecting a 4k powerhouse console from Nintendo, but they have a history of disregarding raw processing for gimmicks, and different ways of interacting with their games. I wouldn't call it "backwards technical design" by any standard. I think it's quite forward-looking for their community, they're eating this shit up. I don't really care for it personally, but I can absolutely see how the convenience of a console that's also a handheld, that I can take apart and play 1v1 Street Fighter with my friends on a whim at the bus stop is pretty fucking cool.

And for everyone bitching about controls, I really don't think you need more than 2 of them for 2 people. You're too used to modern controllers, think Nintendo, think simple. I bet 90% of games that require 2 players will work with 1 controller each. 1 analog stick, 4 buttons. Nintendo people love that shit.
 
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48. Re: Into the Black Jan 14, 2017, 01:15 Slick
 
Fion wrote on Jan 13, 2017, 23:33:
Paid MONTHLY Online Connectivity. The nail in the coffin. One of the biggest reasons I've avoided consoles in years is I refuse to pay them access to an internet I'm already paying for when that connectivity offers me literally nothing extra for the money. These companies expect me to pay them $50 a year for what.. voice chat? HAH!

Yeah, gaming servers aren't free. I mean they're not super expensive, but they're not free. Any game that isn't P2P MP has to use some kind of server backend (even P2P servers need a matchmaking/master server), usually provided by the console maker. Most MP games don't have community paid-for and run-by servers.

I'm all for free, but the Xbox 360 changed all of that, proooooobably for the better. Xbox Live in the '00s was the superior platform for online play, the PS3 however was free but kind of shite. Well, you get what you pay for. PS4 rolled around, Sony started charging the same as MS, and now the Sony servers are top-notch.

You're not "paying to connect to the internet you already pay for", you're paying to connect to their private server banks that let you run around in cyberspace teabagging noobzorz, and that costs someone money.
 
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47. Re: Into the Black Jan 14, 2017, 01:11 Slick
 
Prez wrote on Jan 13, 2017, 23:17:
There's a HUGE difference in how the Wii and Wii-U performed, mostly due to the Wii serving their market well while the Wii-U failed to do so. Shipping a very novel package such as Wii-Sports with the system was a huge part in getting the Wii off the ground and on its way to its huge success.

I think the Wii's success was mostly in part to the very novel control scheme, it was a new way to play. Wii sports helped demonstrate that, but I don't think it's the reason it sold well.

In contrast, the Wii-U was just a mess. So many reasons that failed, not cause it didn't include Wii sports. Of all the reasons I think that one sums it up for me. A good friend, who's an oldskool console buff, who owns all the old consoles still, all the old cartridges, all the old handhelds, not as collectors items, but bought them as they came out, he had every nintendo product ever released, even a Japanese Famicom... He had no idea what the Wii-U was. He had heard of it, and thought it was some sort of controller extension. He told me: "I already have the Wii pro control adapters, I don't need the new one". I was flabbergasted. So many people honest to god didn't know this was even a new console.
 
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46. Re: Morning Consolidation Jan 14, 2017, 00:48 Redmask
 
By the way no one wants fucking motion controls, fuck off with that shit. Theres a reason the Wii ended up in everyones fucking closet. The whole industry moved on already, its relegated to serving VR efforts at best. Jesus christ Miyamoto and Aonuma, let it die already.  
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45. Re: Into the Black Jan 14, 2017, 00:25 NegaDeath
 
Slick wrote on Jan 13, 2017, 22:14:
You've completely disregarded the fact that Nintendo knew internally that they were developing the Switch. That completely changes the discussion.

I disregarded it because it's a dumb argument. They did not start development on a Switch game 5+ years in advance of the platform being released, and then backport it to the platform that was out at the time. It was demonstrated on WiiU a year before the Tegra hardware the Switch is based on was even released. Literally the Switch hardware did not exist to develop on. It is the exact same thing that happened to Twilight Princess, which you already admitted you were wrong about earlier. Literally identical.

And for the record noone is disregarding Zelda, that is a deflection. People are disregarding the backwards technical design and anemic software schedule of Switch.

Redmask wrote on Jan 14, 2017, 00:24:
The Nintendo Switch at its finest ladies and gents. I hope they kill off the 3DS because otherwise this thing is fucked.

One of the bigger positives coming from all of this is that they will be killing off the idea of separate console and portable lines and all dev teams will focus on the Switch platform. So no more cases of, for example, a Fire Emblem game being portable only. Apparently didn't help with 2017 but should be a boon going forward.

This comment was edited on Jan 14, 2017, 00:37.
 
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