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Orogogus wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 13:08:jdreyer wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 03:23:Orogogus wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 02:21:You may have heard of this doctor before that encouraged people to eat as much bacon as they liked: Doctor Robert Atkins.
I believe they don't have to do any encouraging, and if they did it would backfire almost immediately. How many times do they have to suggest to (real) doctors to encourage patients to eat more bacon before one of them outs it on the Internet?
He wasn't the voice of the medical establishment, at all. Your family practitioner isn't going to tell you to go on the Atkins diet; that's by and large something people bring up on their own. And I don't think you're going to find any evidence that he was motivated by payouts from the drug industry.
bigspender wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 17:33:
This isn't the course which my friend went on, but it's was similar: http://www.auspen.org.au/events/auspen-advanced-clinical-nutrition-course-2016/
Look at the sponsors: Nestle...... and a Pharma company specializing in chronically ill patients (why are the patients chronically ill, if the diet is so healthy?).
jdreyer wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 03:11:bigspender wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 18:42:
That's why you'll see me in this section often responding to health related news articles, and promoting books by Dr. Michael Greger, Dr. Neal Barnard, Dr. Cadwell Esselstyn, Dr. John McDougall, T. Colin Campbell, Dr. Dean Ornish and so on. I believe these are truly non-biased portals to honest health research.
Is there a big difference among the various programs by these doctors? Dr. Esselstyn's seems stricter than Ornish's for example.
Orogogus wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 13:08:jdreyer wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 03:23:Orogogus wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 02:21:You may have heard of this doctor before that encouraged people to eat as much bacon as they liked: Doctor Robert Atkins.
I believe they don't have to do any encouraging, and if they did it would backfire almost immediately. How many times do they have to suggest to (real) doctors to encourage patients to eat more bacon before one of them outs it on the Internet?
He wasn't the voice of the medical establishment, at all. Your family practitioner isn't going to tell you to go on the Atkins diet; that's by and large something people bring up on their own. And I don't think you're going to find any evidence that he was motivated by payouts from the drug industry.
jdreyer wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 03:23:Orogogus wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 02:21:You may have heard of this doctor before that encouraged people to eat as much bacon as they liked: Doctor Robert Atkins.
I believe they don't have to do any encouraging, and if they did it would backfire almost immediately. How many times do they have to suggest to (real) doctors to encourage patients to eat more bacon before one of them outs it on the Internet?
Orogogus wrote on Dec 29, 2016, 02:21:You may have heard of this doctor before that encouraged people to eat as much bacon as they liked: Doctor Robert Atkins.
I believe they don't have to do any encouraging, and if they did it would backfire almost immediately. How many times do they have to suggest to (real) doctors to encourage patients to eat more bacon before one of them outs it on the Internet?
On the other hand I do believe the food industry is doing a ton of consumer-unfriendly lobbying and advertising.You don't see adverts for broccoli and asparagus, do you?
bigspender wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 18:42:
That's why you'll see me in this section often responding to health related news articles, and promoting books by Dr. Michael Greger, Dr. Neal Barnard, Dr. Cadwell Esselstyn, Dr. John McDougall, T. Colin Campbell, Dr. Dean Ornish and so on. I believe these are truly non-biased portals to honest health research.
bigspender wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 18:42:
I'm not sure if you have ever seen that show called Doctors? But they are constantly telling people to eat bacon and eggs for breakfast, they push ketogenic diets, paleo diets and other cholesterol heavy foods.(and shunning healthy staples like potatoes).
Other celebrity doctors like Dr. Axe doing a similar thing.
Like I mentioned, the conferences and training programs that doctors are sent to are funded by drug companies - why else would a drug company sponsor it if they weren't getting something back? EDIT: my local doctors office is full of pamphlets that look very similar to official dietary guidelines, except in the fine print they are industry created, and of course they tell you to eat more eggs, red meat etc These pamphlets wouldn't fool you or me, but the general public will take read them in waiting room and assume the information is correct, since it's at the doctors office.
Yes exactly, obesity itself causes problems, which is why there is a big incentive to encourage more people to be obese, and keep them that way. Obesity related diseases do not kill people quickly, so they will be able to keep taking the drugs for a long time. Drugs that treat (not cure) chronic diseases are where they make all of their money.
Orogogus wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 18:00:bigspender wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 16:48:
The big money are these chronic diseases, they never go away as long as the patients keep following the doctors dietary advice. (And it's easy advice to follow, when the doctor tells you to eat more bacon)
I don't expect big pharma to be telling people that heart disease is completely optional, avoidable and reversible. That's the doctors job - but when the doctors (who are viewed as trusted sources) have been primed to pass on false information, then that is pretty awful.
So while Big Pharma isn't causing the diseases directly, it's certainly enabling other industries and companies to create the market for them.
It's not just the doctors either, it's the USDA and so on. They're all in bed together, and if it wasn't for organisations like PCRM.org putting in lawsuits against the USDA then we'd probably be eating pork with pre-injected statins and thinking that our genes are the cause of our chronic diseases.
I don't see a ton of evidence that the medical establishment has been primed to dispense bad dietary advice. I've never heard of doctors telling people to eat more bacon.
Orogogus wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 18:00:
The health problems that come out of obesity happen pretty much by themselves, there's very little need or incentive for Big Pharma to try to make it any worse.
Orogogus wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 18:00:Definitely agree that the ultimate responsibility falls on the individual. I'm just making a fuss because it's very hard to make informed decisions with all of they're sneaky tactics and noise they create on purpose. (The various industries constantly publish and fund research which is specifically manufactured to show positive results for them. And for the general public the research looks legitimate, but if you look closer then you can see how they've fudged the results E.g. they'll publish research saying eggs don't raise cholesterol, but when you look at the numbers, you'll see that the cholesterol of the participants was already at maximum levels, so no matter how they ate, it couldn't go any higher)
Americans, and developed nations in general, lean towards self-destructive gluttony. It's a very, very hard thing to reverse, stop or slow down. Whenever and wherever there's widespread economic growth obesity and diabetes follow.
jdreyer wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 13:17:
Big Pharma is not altruistic in the least. There are generics because the government sets the patent expiration for drugs at 20 years. Don't fool yourself: the drug companies salivate at Disney's 90 and 120 copyright expirations. And they develop slight modifications of existing drugs, market them and get approval as new drugs, and then sell them at the protected price even though they're not any better than existing drugs. And don't even get me started on Skreli or Epipen.
Fortunately they are one of the more heavily regulated industries, so the damaging aspects of capitalism are mitigated and they're able to provide an overall good. Could see that change under Trump, who wants to deregulate a lot of stuff. Wait until "market forces" come into play because of 100s of people dying from a bad drug.
bigspender wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 16:48:
The big money are these chronic diseases, they never go away as long as the patients keep following the doctors dietary advice. (And it's easy advice to follow, when the doctor tells you to eat more bacon)
I don't expect big pharma to be telling people that heart disease is completely optional, avoidable and reversible. That's the doctors job - but when the doctors (who are viewed as trusted sources) have been primed to pass on false information, then that is pretty awful.
So while Big Pharma isn't causing the diseases directly, it's certainly enabling other industries and companies to create the market for them.
It's not just the doctors either, it's the USDA and so on. They're all in bed together, and if it wasn't for organisations like PCRM.org putting in lawsuits against the USDA then we'd probably be eating pork with pre-injected statins and thinking that our genes are the cause of our chronic diseases.
jdreyer wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 13:22:El Pit wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 05:22:
How does Big Pharma work? Hint: every customer who is actually HEALED from his sickness by medical treatment is a LOST customer. So... Keep 'em paying. Keep 'em addicted. Keep 'em sick, but make them feel better.
We have the FDA and regulations to prevent that.
El Pit wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 05:22:
How does Big Pharma work? Hint: every customer who is actually HEALED from his sickness by medical treatment is a LOST customer. So... Keep 'em paying. Keep 'em addicted. Keep 'em sick, but make them feel better.
Kxmode wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 01:57:
I think believing Big Pharma is evil is blown out of proportion. Do I think the ethics of being a publically traded company gives pause? Sure, but does this make them bad? No. Do they do good? Of course. How? One way is they provide several million in aid to third-world countries comparable to that country's GDP. They also offer low-cost alternatives in the form of authorized generics. All my prescriptions are generics costing $5-$10 for a 30-90 day supply. Before a generic was available with my insurance one was $180 for a 30-day supply. Keep in mind Big Pharma spends billions to R&D new drugs and go through the FDA approval process. In 2014, is cost 2.6 billion to bring a new chemical entity to market (this includes FDA approval). If I were a shareholder, I would require they recoup their costs. Consider: if they were truly greedy, there wouldn't be generics. Thankfully, there are for most.
El Pit wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 05:22:
How does Big Pharma work? Hint: every customer who is actually HEALED from his sickness by medical treatment is a LOST customer. So... Keep 'em paying. Keep 'em addicted. Keep 'em sick, but make them feel better.
Beamer wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 07:11:Why think when a conspiracy can do all the thinking for you. Did you ever notice that a conspiracy theory never holds up with the slightest bit of critical thinking.El Pit wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 05:22:
How does Big Pharma work? Hint: every customer who is actually HEALED from his sickness by medical treatment is a LOST customer. So... Keep 'em paying. Keep 'em addicted. Keep 'em sick, but make them feel better.
So is every customer that's dead, as they'll never get any form of sickness again. But one that has been healed can get other illnesses down the road.
It's like you guys don't think too hard about this.
El Pit wrote on Dec 28, 2016, 05:22:
How does Big Pharma work? Hint: every customer who is actually HEALED from his sickness by medical treatment is a LOST customer. So... Keep 'em paying. Keep 'em addicted. Keep 'em sick, but make them feel better.
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 27, 2016, 15:45:So....these sectors will be the best places to find jobs under a Trump administration. Happy hunting!jdreyer wrote on Dec 27, 2016, 13:50:Study after study has found that legalization is the only way to stop this insanity. Until then morticians, politicians, religions, profiteers, private or government run prisons and drug kingpins will be the only ones that profit. While the rest of society suffers.
I wish big pharma could come up with a non-addictive recreational drug that didn't kill people. Obviously people want to do this, so we should find some way of making it safe.