Add to that the F-35 is terrible at CAS and it's the alleged replacement for the A-10.

I'm not quite sure what the F-35 is actually going to achieve when it's all said and done. The Navy seems really happy with the F-18SH (and they should be, it's quite the plane)and there's plenty of life left in that airframe plus it was designed with upgradeability in mind (unlike its predecessor, the F-14).

Everything I have read about the F-35 sounds neat on paper but every time anyone has tried to make one platform perform all, or most, roles, it does none of them well. Its got a severe black eye in the public perception and it's viewed more as a millstone than as an achievement.

Muscular Beaver wrote on Dec 14, 2016, 08:02:

jdreyer wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 22:42:
Here's an article on what the pilots who fly the F-35 actually think of it.

A taste:

I was conducting a strike mission and Red Air was coming at me. In a 4th Gen fighter you must do a whole lot of interpretation. You see things in azimuth, and you see things in elevation. In the F-35 you just see the God’s eye view of the whole world. It’s very much like you are watching the briefing in real time.

I am coming in to perform the simulated weapons release, and Red Air is coming the other direction. I have enough situational awareness to assess whether Red Air is going to be a factor to me by the time I release the weapon. I can make the decision, I’m going to go to the target, I’m going to release this weapon. Simultaneously I pre-target the threat, and as soon as I release the A2G weapon, I can flip a switch with my thumb and shoot the Red Air. This is difficult to do in a 4th Gen fighter, because there is so much manipulation of systems in the cockpit. All while paying attention to the basic mechanics of flying the airplane and interpreting threat warnings that are often very vague, or only directional. In the F-35 I know where the threats are, what they are and I can thread the needle. I can tell that the adversary is out in front of me and I can make a very, very smart decision about whether to continue or get out of there. All that, and I can very easily switch between mission sets.

Nobody questions that the electronics in the F-35 are very advanced. Its still a plane that wasnt necessary, since you could simply upgrade older planes with stuff like that or make a new simpler one. Stealth is overrated and this plane tries to do too many jobs at once. Thats why its mediocre at best.

I recently saw a picture of a F-35 flying side by side with a F-16 at low speeds. The F-35 had to fly a far higher angle and to the eye it seemed like it was very close to stalling. The F-16 went pretty much straight.
I thought that picture revealed how bad the aerodynamics of that plane really are.

I agree a high-low mix is preferable to all stealth. We'd have been better off financially continuing to build F-22s, upgrading the avionics, developing a naval version, and buying more F-15s (probably Silent Eagle version) and F-18 SHs, which are both cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate.

Also, it's worth pointing out that the original concept was that the F-35 was supposed to be cheap. Original estimates put it at under $50M per plane. But feature creep, poor planning, etc. etc. now put the cost at triple that once you factor in development costs (current build cost is $100M per F-35).

And yes, stealth planes have poor aerodynamics.

jdreyer wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 22:42:
Here's an article on what the pilots who fly the F-35 actually think of it.

A taste:

I was conducting a strike mission and Red Air was coming at me. In a 4th Gen fighter you must do a whole lot of interpretation. You see things in azimuth, and you see things in elevation. In the F-35 you just see the God’s eye view of the whole world. It’s very much like you are watching the briefing in real time.

I am coming in to perform the simulated weapons release, and Red Air is coming the other direction. I have enough situational awareness to assess whether Red Air is going to be a factor to me by the time I release the weapon. I can make the decision, I’m going to go to the target, I’m going to release this weapon. Simultaneously I pre-target the threat, and as soon as I release the A2G weapon, I can flip a switch with my thumb and shoot the Red Air. This is difficult to do in a 4th Gen fighter, because there is so much manipulation of systems in the cockpit. All while paying attention to the basic mechanics of flying the airplane and interpreting threat warnings that are often very vague, or only directional. In the F-35 I know where the threats are, what they are and I can thread the needle. I can tell that the adversary is out in front of me and I can make a very, very smart decision about whether to continue or get out of there. All that, and I can very easily switch between mission sets.

Nobody questions that the electronics in the F-35 are very advanced. Its still a plane that wasnt necessary, since you could simply upgrade older planes with stuff like that or make a new simpler one. Stealth is overrated and this plane tries to do too many jobs at once. Thats why its mediocre at best.

I recently saw a picture of a F-35 flying side by side with a F-16 at low speeds. The F-35 had to fly a far higher angle and to the eye it seemed like it was very close to stalling. The F-16 went pretty much straight.
I thought that picture revealed how bad the aerodynamics of that plane really are.

Here's an article on what the pilots who fly the F-35 actually think of it.

A taste:

I was conducting a strike mission and Red Air was coming at me. In a 4th Gen fighter you must do a whole lot of interpretation. You see things in azimuth, and you see things in elevation. In the F-35 you just see the God’s eye view of the whole world. It’s very much like you are watching the briefing in real time.

I am coming in to perform the simulated weapons release, and Red Air is coming the other direction. I have enough situational awareness to assess whether Red Air is going to be a factor to me by the time I release the weapon. I can make the decision, I’m going to go to the target, I’m going to release this weapon. Simultaneously I pre-target the threat, and as soon as I release the A2G weapon, I can flip a switch with my thumb and shoot the Red Air. This is difficult to do in a 4th Gen fighter, because there is so much manipulation of systems in the cockpit. All while paying attention to the basic mechanics of flying the airplane and interpreting threat warnings that are often very vague, or only directional. In the F-35 I know where the threats are, what they are and I can thread the needle. I can tell that the adversary is out in front of me and I can make a very, very smart decision about whether to continue or get out of there. All that, and I can very easily switch between mission sets.

the problem with "republicans" (other than the nazi bigotry stuff) s they don't take responsibility for anything. trump will blame everyone for everything for 4 years. nothing will ever be because of him. he will always be the victim. these are the people who donate to charities when they feel guilty for how much they screw people, in the hopes that if there is a hell, they won't go there. if there is a hell, they will still go there. god doesn't count guilty donations

Agent.X7 wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 18:23:

descender wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 15:29:

Obama directly cost me my job

Here is another perfect place where actual facts help. The Budget Control act that actually cut Lockheed's funding was a bipartisan effort in congress. Congress couldn't reach a budget agreement and it triggered automatic spending cuts, which is why Lockheed cut 10,000 jobs. You can blame the GOP congressmen that fought to put that automatic trigger in the bill, you can blame the GOP congressmen that failed at their jobs and shut down the government forcing the sequester and spending cuts... but you can't blame Obama. He had very little to do with it.

Wrong. That program was cut due to Obama having Defense Secretary Gates review the program and then deciding it was not worth the money. The other cuts came later. Senator McCain suggested to Obama that it might not be worth it, but in the end Obama made that decision. Which is why it's even funnier that a project even more ridiculously in the red like the X-35 is allowed to continue, especially since Lockheed originally proposed outfitting our existing planes with better electronics instead. (Which is what we were doing to the existing fleet of AH-64 helicopters.)

The US MIC are the biggest thieves on the planet, robbing the American taxpayers of several hundred billion dollars a year and you're blaming that on Obama? Are you fucking kidding me? So basically you were a sponge hoovering up taxpayer's money on useless shit and you're mad that someone finally pulled the plug on that? Jesus, go get a real fucking job and then talk to us.

Burrito of Peace wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 15:29:

Angrius Maximis wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 15:21:
OH SHUT UP you crying baby. Fuck you liberals are worse than bed bugs you follow every story everywhere and get into anything

FLAG ON THE FIELD! Unsupportable ad hominem attack. 25 yard penalty, third down.

LOL, I got quite a chuckle out of that.

Agent.X7 wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 13:59:
Trump just said what everyone in any way already familiar with the project knows to be true. We've wasted billions on a jet that is outclassed at every level by fighters we sold to our enemies. Political bullshit is the only reason we are still throwing money at this failed project.

Also, Obama directly cost me my job at Lockheed when he took office, so fuck people who think this is just a Trump thing.

1. "Everyone" might know it's "true" but the PEOTUS is the only person with the power to cause LockMart to lose $2B in value from a single tweet.

2. Which aircraft did we sell to our enemies that outclasses the F-35?

3. How'd you lose your job? When the F-22 line was shut down?

4. The F-35 has been rife with problems: 15 year development cycle, built in 40 states, software bugs and delays, billions in cost overruns, double the maintenance costs vs. other jets, concurrency issues, weapons incompatibility, etc. That being said, it's too late, we're stuck with it. We've already built more than 200 aircraft, and there's no equivalent alternative. Even if we wanted to try and acquire Rafales, Eurofighters, and Gripens instead, we'd never get the numbers (assuming we could even overcome the political opposition to buying European).

Apparently the F-35 for all its issues, has been very successful in simulated war games. Stealth + sensor fusion appears to be a game-changer. It's important to remember that a lot of aircraft have teething problems. The F-16 had the nickname "lawndart" early in its deployment, but went on to become an iconic fighter jet. So here's to hoping the F-35 ends up being a great plane that allows the USA to maintain its air dominance capability.

Beamer wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 19:42:

At least his username was correct.

Yeah I guess you can't get too upset. Does what it says on the tin.

NKD wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 15:46:

Angrius Maximis wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 15:21:

NKD wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 13:17:

It's very disturbing that his supporters are okay with this kind of behavior and even applaud it.

OH SHUT UP you crying baby. Fuck you liberals are worse than bed bugs you follow every story everywhere and get into anything

You sound like a triggered cuck. Low energy. Sad. *insert Pepe Frog picture here*

At least his username was correct.

NKD wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 14:15:

There's a difference between the President's policies creating and ending jobs, and reckless tweeting doing it. Maybe not to the person losing their job, but to the other hundreds of millions of people living here. One is unavoidable, the other is tacky and makes the entire country look like a joke.

After 2 terms of a decent president our country is definitely looking like a sad joke.

you mean you werent rewarded for being a war profiteer? oh no! say it isnt so!

let us all cry and cry some more, let us cry rivers for these sad little people and their sorrowful lives of woe

descender wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 15:29:

Obama directly cost me my job

Here is another perfect place where actual facts help. The Budget Control act that actually cut Lockheed's funding was a bipartisan effort in congress. Congress couldn't reach a budget agreement and it triggered automatic spending cuts, which is why Lockheed cut 10,000 jobs. You can blame the GOP congressmen that fought to put that automatic trigger in the bill, you can blame the GOP congressmen that failed at their jobs and shut down the government forcing the sequester and spending cuts... but you can't blame Obama. He had very little to do with it.

Wrong. That program was cut due to Obama having Defense Secretary Gates review the program and then deciding it was not worth the money. The other cuts came later. Senator McCain suggested to Obama that it might not be worth it, but in the end Obama made that decision. Which is why it's even funnier that a project even more ridiculously in the red like the X-35 is allowed to continue, especially since Lockheed originally proposed outfitting our existing planes with better electronics instead. (Which is what we were doing to the existing fleet of AH-64 helicopters.)

Oh shit, not our bloated military industrial complex!

It's sad when you can't even come to a game/tech news site without being bombarded by people flaming other people over silly stuff. Grow up guys.

On the one hand Trump is appointing Corporate Super Managers to his Cabinet left, right and center. On the other hand, in one tweet he hits the Military Industrial Complex where it hurts the most, in the fucking wallet, to the tune of 2 BILLION DOLLARS!

Is this guy even real? I mean I understand that his campaign was based on contradictions, but in the real world that shit is not going to fly. Not if he means to govern. I mean in one tweet he just alienated the top brass in the most powerful Air Force in the world, as well as the biggest industry still based in the US today. (When it comes to high tech weapons, look no further)

Angrius Maximis wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 15:21:

NKD wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 13:17:

It's very disturbing that his supporters are okay with this kind of behavior and even applaud it.

OH SHUT UP you crying baby. Fuck you liberals are worse than bed bugs you follow every story everywhere and get into anything

You sound like a triggered cuck. Low energy. Sad. *insert Pepe Frog picture here*

Speaking of Congress. Buddy is in the National Guard - and I don't know who is at fault, but nationwide, people showed up for Guard drill this past weekend and not all of the locations notified people of the following information;

"We did not pass a budget this month, so no guard - We have no money".

Fail at so many levels. My buddy got a call the night before (had already taken off of work and planned ahead) but he has buddies nationwide that told him they drove HOURS and took of MANY DAYS of work to show up for duty and no one said a thing.

Maybe just leave this here.....

Obama directly cost me my job

Here is another perfect place where actual facts help. The Budget Control act that actually cut Lockheed's funding was a bipartisan effort in congress. Congress couldn't reach a budget agreement and it triggered automatic spending cuts, which is why Lockheed cut 10,000 jobs. You can blame the GOP congressmen that fought to put that automatic trigger in the bill, you can blame the GOP congressmen that failed at their jobs and shut down the government forcing the sequester and spending cuts... but you can't blame Obama. He had very little to do with it.

Angrius Maximis wrote on Dec 13, 2016, 15:21:
OH SHUT UP you crying baby. Fuck you liberals are worse than bed bugs you follow every story everywhere and get into anything

FLAG ON THE FIELD! Unsupportable ad hominem attack. 25 yard penalty, third down.