Quboid wrote on Dec 12, 2016, 09:30:
"Since when is Russia our enemy?"
Open a history book.
What, a grade school history book?
All we did was do our best to contain a political system that, if it spread to the U.S., would have put the industrialists (the people that pay our politicians) out of business.
But sure, let's break down some history : (The other viewpoint to what we are told in grade school)
Preface :
Russian communism was birthed from a society living under a monarchy, where people worked in factories 16 hours a day 7 days a week since childhood - for barely enough pay to not starve, make rent, and buy some clothes. The only way to get ahead was via military prowess (enlisting and working your way up). It was a popular (democratic) revolution where the unwashed peon masses took over (with the help of their family/supporters in the military) and created what in their uneducated eyes was what they considered utopia : No worries about work/food/shelter. All basics provided, no fear of starvation, abuse by some robberbaron, etc.
To western industrialists, the idea of worker underlings taking over industry, was an abomination. A reversal of the natural order.
Much like how monarchies viewed the U.S./French republics as abominations : the people rising above the monarchy was a reversal of the natural order.
This fear, that the incumbent powers could be toppled and made redundant by those beneath them - that was the source of the anti-communist effort in the west. Everything and everyone in power (in the west) stood against such a change - as a matter of self preservation.
In the span of a single generation, Russians elevated a largely backwater society into near complete literacy and a high rate of college education. They raised the common person's quality of life to a level they wouldn't have imagined possible just years earlier.
The flaw was that the system outlived its usefulness. After people are provided for, and after society becomes educated, the system could not answer a simple question : "Now what?". It had no future, nowhere to go. The method it used to bring about change (universal government employment, guaranteed wages, guaranteed jobs), had no room to grow. People wanted to take their new wealth and knowledge, and apply it to personal gain. They wanted to start their own private businesses and industries - but that was against the law. Newer generations grew up always assured of employment no matter how poorly they perform. People would go to work, sit on their hands, drink, screw off, produce damn near nothing, and get paid. People would go to college, become professionals, and be given jobs for which there is no demand. Lazy unproductive complacent workers meant empty store shelves, and unhappy people. People whose relatives in the west could buy things like jeans, could send them to the east, and make everyone jealous of cousin Vassily's new pants that they can't buy for themselves. Envy and unrest doomed communist Russia. Even though the west likes to take credit, pointing to its efforts as a success, but in fact Russia imploded under the weight of its own complacency.
WW2 :
We sat on our hands before joining the fight against mainland Germany, hoping Russia/Germany would mutually eradicate one another - running around picking up colonial assets in Africa - only entering the war against Germany ~8 months before it was over, mostly to grab some land before everything German can surrender to Russia.
(Aside : BTW, this is when the west promised Syria independence from Turkey if they help fight Turkey, so Syria joined the Allies. Afterwards Britain/France betrayed Syria and chopped up Syria into Lebanon/Jordan/Syria and turned the pieces into British/French colonies. The reason France hates Assad so much is because his father's government kicked out the French occupiers in the 70's).
Korea : WW2 partisan resistance to the Japanese forms a government after the war. It's a popular government behind which Koreans rally. US/Russia promise to cede control of N/S Korea to this government after custodianship expires. After expiration, Russia hands over North Korea. US Refuses to hand over south, and props up the U.S. South Korean provisional government. Korean people in SKorea protest. US SKorean provisional government kills around 150'000 protesters. Going as far as hunting down protesters that ran off to hide in caves. There are literally cave monuments to the people mass executed in caves. Korean proxy war ensues. (To be clear, modern NK govt is a steaming pile of shit, and I'm sure that in the long run no one in SKorea regrets how things went down.)
Vietnam : FOIA request came out a few years ago that showed that the in the 1st gulf of Tonkin incident the U.S. captain swam into a Korean bay and ordered any ship that comes within 10km to be fired upon - upon which the U.S. ship attacked a korean ship. And later lied about being attacked. The 2nd gulf incident (regarding 'aggressive' sonar contacts) ended up being literally nothing. Proxy war ensued. Communists eventually win... and nothing. People moved on with their lives.
Afghanistan : Afghan government enacts land reforms - abolishing feudalism. Religious plebs and their local lords protest because the Koran says that feudalism is the right way to live. They form an insurgency - emboldened by the Muslim takeover in Iran. Afghan president Taraki asked for Russian help in defeating the insurgents. Russia joins the Afghan government in the fight against Muslim terrorists (because it doesn't want 'another Iran' on its border). U.S. arms the terrorists, and bribes the afghan opposition party to leak battle plans to the terrorists, and later to assassinate key politicians. Russia finds out about the Afghan internal government treason, and kicks out the traitors. The Afghan army joins sides with Russian forces and continues fighting the terrorists. The war draws out and the Afghan people get sick of it, and get tired of Russia running the show. Russia gets tired of stingers shooting down their helicopters, and after a while Russia goes home. U.S. declares the 'Russian invaders defeated', and the afghan war over... Afghan army continues to fight the U.S. armed Muslim terrorists all the way until the 90's (long after the U.S. declared the war 'over' and forgot about Afghanistan.) And only a few years after the terrorists win : 9-11.
Point being, we've had to sell a lot of political containment and proxy wars to the U.S. public across the years. That in turn bleeds into the surface-level history we teach. Going beyond the surface, Russian involvement in our proxy conflicts hasn't been as malicious as is popularly presented here, and neither are we as nice as we like to think of ourselves. The 'big stick' era did not disappear - it simply moved from South America to the globe. It reminds me of a saying, something along the lines of : don't piss on someone and call it rain.
Modern capitalist Russia's greatest fault is that they are one of the few countries that has the means to stand up for itself, and actually has enough pride to try, even if it means economic losses. They are a competitor. They enforce their own laws, their own trademarks, their own copyrights, their own trade agreements, and that's annoying to business interests abroad who would prefer that Russia homogenize.
There is a canyon's worth of difference between 'being a competitor/annoying/standing up for one's self', and 'being an enemy'. Especially when mutually assured destruction makes it extremely unlikely that either the U.S. or Russia will ever be real enemies. At worst disgruntled neighbors (so long as NeoLiberal antagonistic policies don't get worse).
In any case, it's important to keep game theory in mind, as a filter. Simply accepting that someone is your enemy, because someone else tells you so, is insufficient. They have to actually _be_ an enemy - by their actions.
-scheherazade
This comment was edited on Dec 12, 2016, 19:37.