Out of the Blue

Without requiring a replacement, my keyboard problem is an ex-problem. You can tell it's better or it would be an e-problem, but after a bit my "x" key started working again. I was planning on pulling all the keys in the area and cleaning it up to see if it would help, but it healed up on its own. I'll still give it a cleaning, but in the meantime I'm happy that it started working again, and ecstatic that it didn't wait until I had a new keyboard to do so.

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Wildlife decline since 1970s reaches nearly 60%.
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45 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
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45.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 30, 2016, 04:51
45.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 30, 2016, 04:51
Oct 30, 2016, 04:51
 
bigspender wrote on Oct 28, 2016, 19:26:
descender wrote on Oct 28, 2016, 16:06:
Dairy (meaning Cow's milk, I have no idea why eggs are lumped in with this garbage) is the last thing I'm worried about saving as it's the last thing any human should be worried about ingesting.

I feel like you're still missing my main point here (which i'll admit isn't coming out very clearly). How are you going to replace and replenish the topsoil that we are currently destroying by farming too much land too often? Usable farmland is drying up (literally in some cases) by the day and it has nothing to do with how much meat we consume.

Short of a mass extinction or population control measures those "sci fi" options are going to be your only option... and these two are actually both real-world solutions already in progress.

These are industrial scale solutions to world-scale problems. How are you going to forcefully change the diet of 7 billion people? You aren't, because no one agrees on what that diet is.

Most of the crop the world grows, is to feed these farm animals. Something like 70-80% depending on what you read.

If we wanted to feed people with plants, we'd need far less land than what we already use, because 7 billion people don't eat anywhere near as much as 80+ billion cows/pigs/chickens etc.

You replenish topsoil with crop rotation btw. (and not using pesticides that kill worms and what not, but that's an issue that can be worked on in parallel to the primary issue of eating meat).

Right, there are ways to grow livestock on scrub and poorer quality lands that doesn't detract from crops. It's not (for the most part) how we raise livestock now, and it results in leaner, tougher, much less (but healthier) meat that people aren't used to. Currently, it takes 35 pounds of topsoil to produce a pound of beef, but a tiny fraction of that for a pound of any other kind of crop, so meat production produces more lost topsoil than anything else.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
Avatar 22024
44.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 28, 2016, 19:26
44.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 28, 2016, 19:26
Oct 28, 2016, 19:26
 
descender wrote on Oct 28, 2016, 16:06:
Dairy (meaning Cow's milk, I have no idea why eggs are lumped in with this garbage) is the last thing I'm worried about saving as it's the last thing any human should be worried about ingesting.

I feel like you're still missing my main point here (which i'll admit isn't coming out very clearly). How are you going to replace and replenish the topsoil that we are currently destroying by farming too much land too often? Usable farmland is drying up (literally in some cases) by the day and it has nothing to do with how much meat we consume.

Short of a mass extinction or population control measures those "sci fi" options are going to be your only option... and these two are actually both real-world solutions already in progress.

These are industrial scale solutions to world-scale problems. How are you going to forcefully change the diet of 7 billion people? You aren't, because no one agrees on what that diet is.

Most of the crop the world grows, is to feed these farm animals. Something like 70-80% depending on what you read.

If we wanted to feed people with plants, we'd need far less land than what we already use, because 7 billion people don't eat anywhere near as much as 80+ billion cows/pigs/chickens etc.

You replenish topsoil with crop rotation btw. (and not using pesticides that kill worms and what not, but that's an issue that can be worked on in parallel to the primary issue of eating meat).
_________________________________________________
"Money doesn't exist in the 24th century, the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." - Jean-Luc Picard
43.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 28, 2016, 16:06
43.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 28, 2016, 16:06
Oct 28, 2016, 16:06
 
Dairy (meaning Cow's milk, I have no idea why eggs are lumped in with this garbage) is the last thing I'm worried about saving as it's the last thing any human should be worried about ingesting.

I feel like you're still missing my main point here (which i'll admit isn't coming out very clearly). How are you going to replace and replenish the topsoil that we are currently destroying by farming too much land too often? Usable farmland is drying up (literally in some cases) by the day and it has nothing to do with how much meat we consume.

Short of a mass extinction or population control measures those "sci fi" options are going to be your only option... and these two are actually both real-world solutions already in progress.

These are industrial scale solutions to world-scale problems. How are you going to forcefully change the diet of 7 billion people? You aren't, because no one agrees on what that diet is.

This comment was edited on Oct 28, 2016, 16:34.
Avatar 56185
42.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 28, 2016, 15:38
42.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 28, 2016, 15:38
Oct 28, 2016, 15:38
 
descender wrote on Oct 28, 2016, 08:46:
You fundamentally don't understand how meat production works.
No, you fundamentally missed the entire point of my post.

I didn't say that meat was more efficient to grow than plants, I said that you can't have one without the other and that growing crops for everyone would take up more land than we currently possess on this planet... neither of which you seem to be debating.
First, dairy is fairly efficient so we can still have some manure. You'll notice I used milk as a comparison point.
Second, manure is only used in 5% of the time as a fertilizer in the US. The vast majority of fertilizer is synthetic. Also, it's a mediocre fertilizer being phosphorus heavy.

It doesn't matter if meat is "less efficient" to produce, switching to all plant diets isn't an answer. You simply can't grow enough plants without the cattle to fertilize it or the land to grow it on.
You absolutely can, since manure isn't a primary fertilizer. And if we decide to keep eggs and diary, which while not quite as efficient as plants, are much better than meat, we can still have some.

It currently takes 1 acre of land to feed 1 person, and that is WITH current levels of meat consumption. There are only 7 billion arable acres of land on this planet. Do the math, something obviously has to change but it can't simply be "farm more". Just increasing the efficiency of the farm to table delivery line and cutting down on the desire to eat "pretty" vegetables could nearly double the number of people we can feed with current systems without growing or raising a single extra plant or animal.
It takes less than half an acre of land to feed a vegetarian. Since population growth is leveling off, and looks to peak at about 11B, more plants-less meat is the way to achieve that.

That being said, using lower quality lands for livestock shouldn't be a problem, land too poor for most crops. The problem is that we feed the vast majority of food grown in the US to livestock, and that's where the loss of efficiency comes from. The amount of food the US feeds to livestock could feed 800M people.

The way you have broken it down there is a pretty misleading way to look at nutrition in general. 1kg of beef and 1kg of wheat/soybeans are not nutritionally equivalent so they are obviously going to take differing amounts of resources to produce in the first place. We don't even have to get into the specifics of why a particular diet is or is not healthy... we have to change the way we produce foods.
I had an error. It should have been grams of beef protein vs. grams of soy protein. Those are equivalent, even if beef has some nutrients like iron that soy doesn't have and vice versa. (iron is among the cheapest and easiest nutrients to supplement BTW)

1) We have to create more arable land through vertical farms (as suggested).
2) We need to try to eat less meat and find a better way to produce it (lab-grown, as suggested).
3) We need to allow cattle to graze the farmlands on rotations, further increasing the need for more arable land. We are literally running out of topsoil and if we stop raising cattle for slaughter we aren't going to have enough manure to create the fertalizer to grow the food in the first place.

Put the unproven sci-fi solutions to the side. IF they ever come, they're decades away and expensive to implement vs. traditional farming. We need to feed people now, since people aren't interested in limiting their population growth (although it looks like population will peak at 11B around 2100)

As far as cattle goes, some cattle on low quality lands is fine since that can't be used for crops. That's a lot less beef than we have now, so prices will go up.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
Avatar 22024
41.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 28, 2016, 14:34
41.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 28, 2016, 14:34
Oct 28, 2016, 14:34
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Oct 28, 2016, 10:17:
jdreyer wrote on Oct 28, 2016, 03:35:
3. You need more land. An acre of land will produce 2 grams of beef per M2, but 40 grams of soybeans.

Grams of protein that is -- not beef or soybeans.

Sorry, yes, thank you for the correction.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
Avatar 22024
40.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 28, 2016, 14:30
40.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 28, 2016, 14:30
Oct 28, 2016, 14:30
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Oct 28, 2016, 10:13:
RedEye9 wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:06:
JayDeath wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:04:
How can one live without their liver? Am I missing something?
When a patient receives a liver transplant, his or her entire liver is removed. It is then replaced by a portion of the donor's healthy liver.
Correct, one "lobe" is removed -- somewhere between 50 and 70 percent of liver. The amazing thing is it only takes 4-6 weeks for the liver to grow back to its original size and slightly longer for full functioning to return.

Yeah, but 4-6 weeks of NO ALCOHOL. That's a dealbreaker.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
Avatar 22024
39.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 28, 2016, 10:17
39.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 28, 2016, 10:17
Oct 28, 2016, 10:17
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 28, 2016, 03:35:
3. You need more land. An acre of land will produce 2 grams of beef per M2, but 40 grams of soybeans.

Grams of protein that is -- not beef or soybeans.
“Extinction is the rule. Survival is the exception.” -- Carl Sagan
38.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 28, 2016, 10:13
38.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 28, 2016, 10:13
Oct 28, 2016, 10:13
 
RedEye9 wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:06:
JayDeath wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:04:
How can one live without their liver? Am I missing something?
When a patient receives a liver transplant, his or her entire liver is removed. It is then replaced by a portion of the donor's healthy liver.
Correct, one "lobe" is removed -- somewhere between 50 and 70 percent of liver. The amazing thing is it only takes 4-6 weeks for the liver to grow back to its original size and slightly longer for full functioning to return.
“Extinction is the rule. Survival is the exception.” -- Carl Sagan
37.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 28, 2016, 08:46
37.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 28, 2016, 08:46
Oct 28, 2016, 08:46
 
You fundamentally don't understand how meat production works.
No, you fundamentally missed the entire point of my post.

I didn't say that meat was more efficient to grow than plants, I said that you can't have one without the other and that growing crops for everyone would take up more land than we currently possess on this planet... neither of which you seem to be debating.

It doesn't matter if meat is "less efficient" to produce, switching to all plant diets isn't an answer. You simply can't grow enough plants without the cattle to fertilize it or the land to grow it on. It currently takes 1 acre of land to feed 1 person, and that is WITH current levels of meat consumption. There are only 7 billion arable acres of land on this planet. Do the math, something obviously has to change but it can't simply be "farm more". Just increasing the efficiency of the farm to table delivery line and cutting down on the desire to eat "pretty" vegetables could nearly double the number of people we can feed with current systems without growing or raising a single extra plant or animal.

The way you have broken it down there is a pretty misleading way to look at nutrition in general. 1kg of beef and 1kg of wheat/soybeans are not nutritionally equivalent so they are obviously going to take differing amounts of resources to produce in the first place. We don't even have to get into the specifics of why a particular diet is or is not healthy... we have to change the way we produce foods.

1) We have to create more arable land through vertical farms (as suggested).
2) We need to try to eat less meat and find a better way to produce it (lab-grown, as suggested).
3) We need to allow cattle to graze the farmlands on rotations, further increasing the need for more arable land. We are literally running out of topsoil and if we stop raising cattle for slaughter we aren't going to have enough manure to create the fertalizer to grow the food in the first place.

This comment was edited on Oct 28, 2016, 09:18.
Avatar 56185
36.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 28, 2016, 03:35
36.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 28, 2016, 03:35
Oct 28, 2016, 03:35
 
descender wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 17:49:
Do you want your children or grand-children do die gracefully from old age? Or do you want them to starve, or die of thrist?

Industrial-scale farming is eliminating the topsoil around the world and will be causing the exact scenario you just blamed on meats. :p

We can't feed plants to 7billion people, there simply isn't enough earth for that. We actually NEED industrial-scale meat-markets in order to supply the amount of fertilizer required to do industrial-scale farming. It's a double edged sword with no easy answers.

Cutter is right, lab-meat and vertical growhouses are the wave of the future, not blindly promoting one type of food over the other.

You fundamentally don't understand how meat production works.

1. You need more water. 1kg of beef takes 15,000 l of water to produce. 1kg of milk takes about 1000 l of water. 15,000 l is about the amount of water you use showering each year.

2. You need more energy. It takes 31kWh to produce a pound of beef, but only 0.75kWh to produce a pound of milk.

3. You need more land. An acre of land will produce 2 grams of beef per M2, but 40 grams of soybeans.

I could go on and on, but you get the point. Meat is a much less efficient form of protein production than any plant or dairy source, by an order of magnitude or more.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
Avatar 22024
35.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 27, 2016, 22:42
35.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 27, 2016, 22:42
Oct 27, 2016, 22:42
 
jdreyer wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 14:37:
Drug maker thwarted plan to limit OxyContin prescriptions.

Next year opioid production will be cut 25% in an attempt to reduce abuse. While I'm all for attempts to reduce abuse, I'm not sure this reduction won't hurt people who really need the drugs for pain management. In the past attempts at limiting pain medication have resulted in thousands needlessly suffering.

I'm with you on this. Deal with the abusers - but don't punish the truly ill. This one size fits all approach to problems just infuriates me.
Avatar 33441
34.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 27, 2016, 21:33
34.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 27, 2016, 21:33
Oct 27, 2016, 21:33
 
bigspender wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 20:24:
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 20:16:
bigspender wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 20:05:
RedEye9 wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:04:
No thanks, I'm sticking with burgers, steaks, chicken, tuna, endangered whooping crane omelets, and I would like the absolute last Chilean Sea Bass deep fried, not broiled.

Well then you're eating the goose that laid the golden egg.

If you click the link in my OP you'll see that you will still eat burgers and omelets, chicken. The difference is that they're made from plants ;-)


The other difference is that eating too much corn based stuff is also unhealthy.. just face it, you need to strike a balance, and there is no balance if you eat zero meat. You may survive that, but is that still living?

Absolutely, you'd still want to eat anything processed in moderation, just as you would moderate real meat consumption (since it causes cancer and heart disease etc).

But I'm guessing RedEye isn't worried about balance given what he listed, he's it in for maximum food pleasure

Fucking A Right.pure gastronome, now where is that golden egg because I like mine soft boiled for 3 minutes.
“We’ve arranged a society on science and technology in which nobody understands anything about science and technology, and this combustible mixture of ignorance and power sooner or later is going to blow up in our faces." Carl Sagan
Avatar 58135
33.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 27, 2016, 20:24
33.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 27, 2016, 20:24
Oct 27, 2016, 20:24
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 20:16:
bigspender wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 20:05:
RedEye9 wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:04:
No thanks, I'm sticking with burgers, steaks, chicken, tuna, endangered whooping crane omelets, and I would like the absolute last Chilean Sea Bass deep fried, not broiled.

Well then you're eating the goose that laid the golden egg.

If you click the link in my OP you'll see that you will still eat burgers and omelets, chicken. The difference is that they're made from plants ;-)


The other difference is that eating too much corn based stuff is also unhealthy.. just face it, you need to strike a balance, and there is no balance if you eat zero meat. You may survive that, but is that still living?

Absolutely, you'd still want to eat anything processed in moderation, just as you would moderate real meat consumption (since it causes cancer and heart disease etc).

But I'm guessing RedEye isn't worried about balance given what he listed, he's it in for maximum food pleasure
_________________________________________________
"Money doesn't exist in the 24th century, the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." - Jean-Luc Picard
32.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 27, 2016, 20:19
32.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 27, 2016, 20:19
Oct 27, 2016, 20:19
 
bigspender wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 20:16:
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 20:05:
RedEye9 wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:06:
JayDeath wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:04:
How can one live without their liver? Am I missing something?
When a patient receives a liver transplant, his or her entire liver is removed. It is then replaced by a portion of the donor's healthy liver.

So they both have to take immune response blockers for the rest of their lives?




Just the recipient I believe. The liver is an organ that will grow back for the donor. It's nice ability for it, since we only have one liver


But imagine marrying the recipient. You could totally pull the "Hey I gave you my liver" thing when it was your turn to do the chores lol.


Hehe yeah, that is some really ballsy donation then though If someone did that for me I'd respect them more than anyone else on the planet. Is a nice story ^^
Avatar 54727
31.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 27, 2016, 20:16
31.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 27, 2016, 20:16
Oct 27, 2016, 20:16
 
bigspender wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 20:05:
RedEye9 wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:04:
No thanks, I'm sticking with burgers, steaks, chicken, tuna, endangered whooping crane omelets, and I would like the absolute last Chilean Sea Bass deep fried, not broiled.

Well then you're eating the goose that laid the golden egg.

If you click the link in my OP you'll see that you will still eat burgers and omelets, chicken. The difference is that they're made from plants ;-)


The other difference is that eating too much corn based stuff is also unhealthy.. just face it, you need to strike a balance, and there is no balance if you eat zero meat. You may survive that, but is that still living?
Avatar 54727
30.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 27, 2016, 20:16
30.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 27, 2016, 20:16
Oct 27, 2016, 20:16
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 20:05:
RedEye9 wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:06:
JayDeath wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:04:
How can one live without their liver? Am I missing something?
When a patient receives a liver transplant, his or her entire liver is removed. It is then replaced by a portion of the donor's healthy liver.

So they both have to take immune response blockers for the rest of their lives?




Just the recipient I believe. The liver is an organ that will grow back for the donor. It's nice ability for it, since we only have one liver


But imagine marrying the recipient. You could totally pull the "Hey I gave you my liver" thing when it was your turn to do the chores lol.

_________________________________________________
"Money doesn't exist in the 24th century, the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." - Jean-Luc Picard
29.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 27, 2016, 20:05
29.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 27, 2016, 20:05
Oct 27, 2016, 20:05
 
RedEye9 wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:06:
JayDeath wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:04:
How can one live without their liver? Am I missing something?
When a patient receives a liver transplant, his or her entire liver is removed. It is then replaced by a portion of the donor's healthy liver.

So they both have to take immune response blockers for the rest of their lives?

Avatar 54727
28.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 27, 2016, 20:05
28.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 27, 2016, 20:05
Oct 27, 2016, 20:05
 
RedEye9 wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 18:04:
No thanks, I'm sticking with burgers, steaks, chicken, tuna, endangered whooping crane omelets, and I would like the absolute last Chilean Sea Bass deep fried, not broiled.

Well then you're eating the goose that laid the golden egg.

Like I said, you don't miss out on anything, not even burgers steaks and chicken etc: https://gardein.com/product-type/chickn/

(That's just one brand, but there 1000s of them these days in each part of world (granted some taste bad, but many taste as good if not better than the real thing).

This comment was edited on Oct 27, 2016, 20:10.
_________________________________________________
"Money doesn't exist in the 24th century, the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." - Jean-Luc Picard
27.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 27, 2016, 19:58
27.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 27, 2016, 19:58
Oct 27, 2016, 19:58
 
Cutter wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 17:46:
bigspender wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 17:35:
"Wildlife decline since 1970s reaches nearly 60%"

Please everyone, the governments aren't going to solve this for us. We all need to adopt a plant-based diet if the human species is going to survive the next 100 years. The power is in your hands.

Each time we eat beef, chicken, pork, eggs, fish, dairy we're destroying the environment.

Please don't turn the planet into Mad Max Fury Road. Do you want your children or grand-children do die gracefully from old age? Or do you want them to starve, or die of thrist? The choice is yours, and you have the power to help with every meal.

I know it feels like you might miss out on something, but the truth is you aren't. And you gain more than you could ever imagine.

You don't eat salads btw, you eat hearty plant foods like this: http://tinyurl.com/gvlxhdp

Awww don't worry about it. Before long we'll be growing meat in labs anyway. That and utilizing vertical farms in cities. We're omnivores. It's the smartest thing to be.

I'm not sure if we have "before long". It took only 40 years to destroy 60% of wildlife species. That gives us what, another 40 years before the remainder is gone, maybe more, maybe less.

When you think about farms, they are run to make money, it's a business. What financial incentives do farmers have to invest in vertical farms? They're not going to do anything unless the market changes, and that starts with our buying habits

We simply cannot wait for other people to solve the problems we cause as individuals. It is us individuals that must make the changes happen.

Perhaps lab grown meat and these vertical farms will appear soon, and perhaps they will be completely environmentally friendly in everyway. But what I'm suggesting is that we must use all available avenues to get the maximum impact. And right now, eating a plant-based diet has the biggest impact (and for the least amount of effort - and it's a positive financial impact to ourselves).

Also the more I read, the less I believe that humans are omnivores. Omnivores don't get diseases such as gout, atherosclerosis, and kidney stones from eating meat/eggs/fish/dairy. But humans do, even the fittest people on the planet at the time (dead G.I.'s in Vietnam aged 18-25) already had already have atherosclerosis.

This comment was edited on Oct 27, 2016, 20:12.
_________________________________________________
"Money doesn't exist in the 24th century, the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." - Jean-Luc Picard
26.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Oct 27, 2016, 19:31
26.
Re: Out of the Blue Oct 27, 2016, 19:31
Oct 27, 2016, 19:31
 
descender wrote on Oct 27, 2016, 17:49:
Do you want your children or grand-children do die gracefully from old age? Or do you want them to starve, or die of thrist?

Industrial-scale farming is eliminating the topsoil around the world and will be causing the exact scenario you just blamed on meats. :p

We can't feed plants to 7billion people, there simply isn't enough earth for that. We actually NEED industrial-scale meat-markets in order to supply the amount of fertilizer required to do industrial-scale farming. It's a double edged sword with no easy answers.

Cutter is right, lab-meat and vertical growhouses are the wave of the future, not blindly promoting one type of food over the other.

We're feeding plants to 80+ billion animals, the majority of which eat more than humans (since these animals are always in a growing phase, as they are killed as soon as they reach size, and are replaced immediately with another growing animal).

So it's just basic math, that if we grow 7 billion people worth of plants, it uses waaaaaaaaaaaay less land, water and energy than feeding those 80 billion animals.

No matter which way you look at it, vertical grow-houses will provide more food, if they grow human-consumable grains. Take out the middle cow

This comment was edited on Oct 27, 2016, 20:00.
_________________________________________________
"Money doesn't exist in the 24th century, the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." - Jean-Luc Picard
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